Some things that *should* be in V1.11+

[Kula66]

Good grief. I just made some tests, in a look-up situation, and it confirms that I was wrong. The AIM-120 is very susceptible to chaff in Lock On - about 7% chance it will chace after each bundle, almost 50% cumulative probability it will get fooled. AIM-7 - I didn't see it chase after the chaff, not even once.

 

SK, its not just look-up ... just about all situations the 120 gets foxed by chaff very easily. I raised this some months ago on the forum ... but never got a good explanation for why the 120 is so dumb and easy to fool!

[Esac_mirmidon]

Well i´m just finished this entire thread with care and attention and my myself i´ve tried to made some trials IN-GAME.

 

All theoreticall knowldges about missiles behaviour are just this, theories, but i wish to lock at the REAL behaviour of LOMAC missiles inside de game.

 

Just after installing 1.11 i was making some trials about russian missiles and the only conclusion i can reach reading this threat is that there is no conclusion. My impressions are like that.

 

Before 1.11 in 1 vs 1, me in a Mig29-S, AI in a F-15C excellent with 8 AIM-120. Engagement altittude 3000 meters. 100% throttle up without afterburner. Recently clean and fresh install form 1.0 to 1.1 and then 1.11.

 

Results: Making an evasive maneuver explained in the game, " Break Turn ", lateral movement and descending below target´s altitude, wait a couple of seconds, turn nose to target, fire missiles ALWAYS MINNIMUM AT 50% of max range or less also, R-27ER, i always acchived a 90% of impacts at very first shot. 1 shot one F-15 burning in flames. His 120 passes below me without energy.

 

After 1.11: SAME RULES OF ENGAGEMENT.

 

My first R27-ER launched at the same range, 50% or less MISS THE TARGET ALWAYS. I SAID ALWAYS. And R27-ER fired inside the suppossed nos escape range missed target about 50%. using R-77 in short distances seems to wrok better.

 

When i viewed the traks because i couldn´t believed this the first R27-ER was diverted from his objective very far away, about 10-15 Km by chaffs launched by the F15-C when its velocity was 2350 km/h ?????. I never break my radar lock on the target. I always flied below the Eagle and i always puted my radar in its gimbal limits.

 

ED WHY?

 

This is the new real missiles enviroment in 1.11 and all of us need to change our BVR tactics? It´s a bug, or something like that?

 

I´m very confused, near angry because in some circunstances some missions are implayabled.

 

Please answer this using 5 years old language because this thread are turning into a scientist forum about missiles sex.

 

Thanks

[Kula66]

Sex with a missile is bad idea ... many pointy, sharp edges, lots of nasty chemicals ... not good! In 5 year old language ... JUST SAY NO!

[Esac_mirmidon]

Well Kula66 i think this thread need a couple of jokes because the real importance about that is MISSILES INSIDE LOMAC.

 

Well if all of us can understand how is the entire envelope of this weapons now in 1.11 in terms of real employment inside FC, explained in clear words, weakness and strong sides of each missiles etc, i think we cun enjoy this sim like always been before.

 

Actually i´m very confused with this missiles behaviour. It´s suppossed that now THIS is really how it works? If the answer is affirmative well, no problem, just change BVR tactics and learn again hw can i defeat enemys.

 

But if this is not normal or i´m missing something or if this is a bug please reporting it and with the support of all of us i think we can resolve the problem.

 

Thanks all , specially Kula66 forhis reply. I´m getting just now a terrible cold and headache and this was a little fun in this nasty day.

[GGTharos]

Yes, this is how its supposed to work. The AIM-120 vs. R-27 (any version) should be no contest: AMRAAM equipped aircraft should win almost every time, by what can be grasped from real life accounts anyway.

[Kula66]

Some real funny stuff happening on line with the 120 - shot straight in the face at 2 x 29s, me a 40k' them at 17k' ... two AMRAAMs at 20miles, another 2 at the no-escape zone ... all miss! Didn't seem to take any evasive action ...

 

120s seem to get worse with each patch/version of the game ... can we start having 12-bores as an 15 weapons option ... may be a better bet!

[D-Scythe]

Yes, this is how its supposed to work. The AIM-120 vs. R-27 (any version) should be no contest: AMRAAM equipped aircraft should win almost every time, by what can be grasped from real life accounts anyway.

 

Unfortunately, the R-27 is the only BVR weapon the Su-27 Flanker (in LOMAC) can carry, so the AMRAAM has to be porked for "gameplay" reasons.

 

For anyone who cares, the R-27ER scored even better than the AIM-7M in the missile trials, but for fairness' sake, I only did 10 trials. So at the very least, we can assume they have equal PK (which is at least twice that of AMRAAM).

 

And here I thought Lock On was a sim...

[Pilotasso]

It seems to me this thread has become all about frustration not achieving kills as easely. If your playing online, it means that its tougher for everybody to kill their adversary 50 km away, so get closer in. Before everybody complained they never had actual dogfights...go figure. If your playing solo use the missile slider. Its that simple.

 

The only problems I see with the game right now in respect to BVR combat is that the AIM-7 is more efective than the AMRAAM.

 

If you complain about lack of success with SARH R-27's, bear in mind that if ED was ever to reflect its real life combat efecteviness in the game,statisticaly speaking, no one would bother even loading them up.

 

Thats it. Anything else is rethorics over each one's own lack of skill. Train harder.

[GGTharos]

Uh ... Pilotasso, you're completely off-key.

 

Maybe you should re-read the thread and see what it 'seems like' to you after you do so ;)

[Pilotasso]

Uh ... Pilotasso, you're completely off-key.

 

Maybe you should re-read the thread and see what it 'seems like' to you after you do so ;)

 

I do hope Im wrong...

 

 

When i viewed the traks because i couldn´t believed this the first R27-ER was diverted from his objective very far away, about 10-15 Km by chaffs launched by the F15-C when its velocity was 2350 km/h ?????. I never break my radar lock on the target. I always flied below the Eagle and i always puted my radar in its gimbal limits.

 

ED WHY?

 

This is the new real missiles enviroment in 1.11 and all of us need to change our BVR tactics? It´s a bug, or something like that?

 

I´m very confused, near angry because in some circunstances some missions are implayabled.

 

Please answer this using 5 years old language because this thread are turning into a scientist forum about missiles sex.

 

Thanks

 

...or else this thread is going the same way I predicted the other thread would go, and it was locked 4 pages after I called it.

 

I read alot of interesting stuff...lets keep it that way. :)

[GGTharos]

Well, that's one poster ... look at teh rest of the thread. C'mon ;)

[D-Scythe]

It seems to me this thread has become all about frustration not achieving kills as easely.

 

Read the rest of the thread ;)

 

The only problems I see with the game right now in respect to BVR combat is that the AIM-7 is more efective than the AMRAAM.

 

It's more an issue of reducing the effectiveness of ARH missiles for gameplay reasons (thus defeating the purpose of a simulation), as the Su-27 Flanker can only carry the R-27ER.

 

It's funny, because everyone expects the F-15C to hand the MiG-29A its six on a platter, but when it comes to the Su-27 (the initial version no less), which is basically MiG-29A technology, they expect the Flanker and the Eagle to be "even".

 

If you complain about lack of success with SARH R-27's, bear in mind that if ED was ever to reflect its real life combat efecteviness in the game,statisticaly speaking, no one would bother even loading them up.

 

...so instead, ED flips the tables and de-fangs the AMRAAM instead - it's more like an active radar homing AA-6 right now.

[EvilBivol-1]

While I appreciate the technical merits of the discussion, I don't understand why can't we stay clear of the bias accusations. AFAIK, the only "gameplay" compromise ED has made with missiles is making U.S. and Russian counter-part missiles of equal capabilities in the seeker department. While I cannot answer on ED's behalf, I'm certain ED did not intentionally "dumb down" ARHs for the sake of the SARH carriers. The fact that the discrepancy in their Pk exists is much more likely a result of the best efforts in guessing (perhaps erroneously) the elusive capabilities of either the AIM-120 or the RVV-AE. They, unlike ourselves, cannot afford to spend countless hours reading through and debating hypothetical capabilities. As work is continued, I'm certain that these guesses will evolve and change.

Also, remember that testing missiles' relative capabilities can be very tricky. That's not to criticize anybody's work (especially considering I haven't done any myself), but as a case in point, a fellow tester on the other side of the forum recently had to revise his conclusions upon realizing that in order to compare two missiles (I forget which two), you have to set-up the launchers at different distances - to account for the difference is rocket burn time and/or impulse (thrust). Otherwise, the missiles arrived at the same location relative to the target with different speeds, which obviously skewed their end-game performance.

[EvilBivol-1]

Oh, and you may also find it interesting that the Russian forum is filled with complaints about the dismal BVR capabilities of Russian jets after 1.11.

 

Go figure...

[SwingKid]

Oh, and you may also find it interesting that the Russian forum is filled with complaints about the dismal BVR capabilities of Russian jets after 1.11.

 

Thanks for the update! I was wondering what was going on in there. It always seems so full of non-Lock On conversations.

 

Have they learned about the, "dive to stay below the target and 'look-up' to avoid ground clutter" SARH trick?

 

:confused:

-SK

[Weta43]

You ever noticed that when there's a bug in a Russian plane, it's a bug, when there's a bug in an American plane, it's a plot?

[D-Scythe]

You ever noticed that when there's a bug in a Russian plane, it's a bug, when there's a bug in an American plane, it's a plot?

 

Haha, yeah, you're right :)

 

Oh, and you may also find it interesting that the Russian forum is filled with complaints about the dismal BVR capabilities of Russian jets after 1.11.

 

Go figure...

 

Ask any of them if they noticed that ED has already reduced the burn-time of the AMRAAM ;)

 

In any case, I don't think anybody minds ED making U.S. and Russian weapons equal, but this isn't about West vs. East.

 

It's more ARH vs. SARH, and currently, provided you keep lock, the SARH missiles at 50% missile effectiveness has a *higher* PK than an ARH missile at 100% effectiveness.

 

I don't think anyone can say that this is realistic. Nobody's asking for an overpowered AMRAAM or R-77 here. But in all honesty, I cannot expect a Su-27 with R-27ERs to stand much of a chance against an R-77 armed MiG-29S or an F-15C with Slammers, realistically. The best counter for an F-15C with AMRAAMs should be a MiG-29S with R-77s, not a Su-27 with R-27ERs.

 

But as it stands now, the Su-27 holds its own in part because the R-27ER is far more effective than any TARH missile in the game.

[EvilBivol-1]

SK, is that sarcasm? I'm not judging either way... I think what you guys are doing is great. Just that it always boils down to ED bias one way or another. True for both sides of the forum. But not everyone has the opportunity me and you have to read both sides, so I figure it can be a refreshing perspective from time to time.

 

Also, it isn't necesserily about ground clutter... Some posts were made regarding the automated switch from radar to EOS in case of problematic tracking and the subsequent loss of guidence.

 

D, I'm not in disagreement with you, either. But only on the technical questions. :)

[D-Scythe]

D, I'm not in disagreement with you, either. But only on the technical questions. :)

 

:D But of course.

 

Seriously though, don't take what I say (that isn't technical ;) ) seriously. People are allowed to have opinions, and obviously I have mine :p

[Kula66]

It seems to me this thread has become all about frustration not achieving kills as easely. If your playing online, it means that its tougher for everybody to kill their adversary 50 km away, so get closer in.

 

Closer in than the no-escape zone? Really? With a 20k' height advantage? In a head-on situation? So what range do you suggest?

[Yellonet]

The ability to see all units in the editor instead of an icon.

You know, like it was in Flanker 2! :rolleyes:

[Prophet_169th]

I dont know what the problem is, I get plenty of kills with AIM120 and R77.

 

The Su27 with 27ERs should have a decent chance with an F15C. The 27ER has enough extra range on it, that a properly executed F-Pole should down the F15C if he presses. If he turns tail, it is now easy to escape the 120.

 

Sure, its not a given that you will get a kill at max range. Sure, it is not a given kill when firing at a high aspect.

 

Has anyone compared Pk in RWS to TWS? Maybe it is a TWS problem, which I could see.

 

I see no problem with the way 1.11 is. Learn to time your shots better, and if he fires and has a better solution then dont press the engagement.

 

Get a wingman, and learn to fly with one.

[Pilotasso]

Read the rest of the thread ;)

 

...so instead, ED flips the tables and de-fangs the AMRAAM instead - it's more like an active radar homing AA-6 right now.

 

Naah. Your just not used to this kind of PK. we are too spoiled with over efective missiles in most SIM's (F4 geeesh).

 

60% PK seems reasonable to me. As someone tested it already.

 

I do think there are discrepancies from the AMRAAm in RL and the one in LOMAC:

 

1) RL AMRAAM's seem to have motor burn for 7 seconds and not 10 like ingame.

2) I think the drag modeled for the missiles is too heavy. Because with 10 seconds of burn its excedenly hard to shoot anyone above 20 miles when it should be closer to 25/30 miles in optimum conditions.

^^^^^^^^

Another issue this causes is the underefecteviness of AIM-9's. I have compared RL shots with those in LOMAC. My empirical findings leads me to believe strongly once again heavier drag in fairly straight trajectories, is responsible for reducing the RMAX to ludricous values, so short I might as well use the cannon. I Obseverd this while trying to shoot opponents frontaly, 90ºs aspect, and from behind during chases(utterly useless).

 

From frontal quadrant, the missiles drag causes the range to be too short for firing it in time before the angular displacement of my target becomes too fast as he passes my nose. Usualy the missile cant cope and falls short. Im talking about like under a mile here!

 

So if ED is to correct any issues in missiles would be like, drag in straight trajectories.

 

This is why I use mainly BVR weapons online. I always shoot them under 15 miles, often, 6-10 miles, and few times above 20. Other than that I have realy no reasons to complain abot the AMRAAM. Sometimes I get 3-4 kills in one flight.

[Pilotasso]

Closer in than the no-escape zone? Really? With a 20k' height advantage? In a head-on situation? So what range do you suggest?

 

when head to head BVR:

Go high, around 25000 feet.If you think you can time a gettaway from your enemies missiles as late as you can, your AMRAAM's can be shot at between the 15-17 mile mark. Be ready to go evasive as the timer TTA reaches 0. Be sure your arround at mach 1 at this time because if your high, the thinner air will cause you to gain big AOA's and youll bleed speed very fast, dip your nose down and run. At this time either your oponent takes the missile in the face or he turns back as well. Time at wich your free from any SARH missile he might have launched. Turn back, if possible around a mountain, locate him and fire again. If hes specialy gifted and dodged your AMRAAM frontaly , while continuing to fire (it hapens)...dont look back and just run to friendlier airspace. Many people do turn back and by the time they face the enemy again they take a missile in the face.

 

If for some reason BVR degenerates into WVR:

If your defensive go down the weeds and run.

If your the one on offensive, gain a litle bit of altitude so that your oponent cant hide behing hills, get closer as 4 miles and shoot the AMRAAM. Any further the missile will just fall short and impact on the ground.

[Kula66]

when head to head BVR:

Go high, around 25000 feet.If you think you can time a gettaway from your enemies missiles as late as you can, your AMRAAM's can be shot at between the 15-17 mile mark. Be ready to go evasive as the timer TTA reaches 0. Be sure your arround at mach 1 at this time because if your high, the thinner air will cause you to gain big AOA's and youll bleed speed very fast, dip your nose down and run. At this time either your oponent takes the missile in the face or he turns back as well. Time at wich your free from any SARH missile he might have launched. Turn back, if possible around a mountain, locate him and fire again. If hes specialy gifted and dodged your AMRAAM frontaly , while continuing to fire (it hapens)...dont look back and just run to friendlier airspace. Many people do turn back and by the time they face the enemy again they take a missile in the face.

 

So from 40,000 at a target flying dumb at 17,000, H2H at about 12miles it should be a sure thing ... but both missiles missed ... :(