Some things that *should* be in V1.11+

[Kula66]

All this points to the fact that at the very least, the AIM-120/R-77 should have just as high a PK as an R-27ER/AIM-7M, but with the advantage of letting the mother-aircraft break off before missile impact. That is the whole point, the idea, the raison d'etre, of having an active radar missile in the first place.

 

D-Scythe, this may surprise you, but I'm in 100% agreement!

[GGTharos]

I don't think the GPS has anything with guiding the missile to terminal ... it may have something to do with minimizing active time though ;)

 

Same for the 2-way DL, as well as the abilityt o plot missile position (and thus knowing if it missed, for example)

[Prophet_169th]

So does everyone else...but how many do you have to shoot?

 

1 usually, sometimes 2.

 

So you're saying that so long as the Su-27 keeps lock, he should shoot the F-15C down if he does anything but turns tails and flee?

 

Yes

 

Have you read any posts in this thread? The whole point is that with an AIM-7/R-27ER, they have such a higher resistence to chaff compared the ARHs that it IS a given that you WILL get a kill (against the AI at least, human players are smarter).

 

I have had just as many AIM7/27ER miss as I have AIM120.

 

How does that even make sense? There should be no difference launching from RWS or TWS, so long as the missile is guided all the way into its radar activation point.

 

Because TWS provides a slower update than RWS does. Also, it is a SIM, and no real life, so I am just troubleshooting the issue. There is nothing wrong with the question, and should make perfect sense to anyone (else) reading it.

 

 

Obviously your opinion. Can you prove anything that was said in this thread wrong? You know, with information or facts.

 

Yup, read the thread. And no one else can really provide any better facts than I have. I have just detailed the experiences I have had with 1.11, and is just as much a 'fact' as any testing anyone else has done. What I provided was information, you know.

[GGTharos]

Actually, D-Scythe, Sk and I have provided tracks which prove that SARH are -more- effective than ARH, and it should simply not be this way.

 

I don't think you can say 'I miss as much with this as I do with that' until you actually provide a count and circumstances of each shot - otherwise it's just beloney.

 

As for TWS, yes, theoretically it should be easier to defeat, but only BEFORE the missile goes active (Which is NOT modelled in LOMAC). Once the missile's active, all bets are off as you're dealing with the missile's seeker exclusively (in LOMAC).

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Scythe

So you're saying that so long as the Su-27 keeps lock, he should shoot the F-15C down if he does anything but turns tails and flee?

 

 

Yes

 

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Real life SARH performance is FAR WORSE than ARH. And like you said, it's a SIM, right? This is an issue that needs to be addressed.

[Gazehound]

Im finding that *with AI* AMRAAM wielding eagles regularly beat Su27s which are set to a harder difficulty. The 27s typically fire around 4 27ers each in a 2vs2, and they rarely hit - if a 27 kills an eagle its a heater usually. The eagles are firing about 2 amraams each.

 

Some community made frog missions are fairly unplayable now as your 'excellent' su27 cap gets shredded by a pair of average eagles. I edited one to add another pilot to the cap flight and they got beat again, so I edited it again and just removed the enemy CAP.

 

The point is - if you have proved that SAR are more effective than AR (which im sure you have, although you do not say under what conditions) , can you explain these results? If in the future the relative efficacy of SAR and AR missiles is altered due to your findings, what do you think it will do the problem above?

 

Further, since the patch I find I am shooting human targets much more with heaters simply because my AR *AND* SAR are performing much less well due to the new notch gate characteristics (russian planes).

[GGTharos]

I'm glad you asked.

 

I'll answer very simply and without going into too much detail:

 

The AI's offensive AND defensive tactics suck, plain and simple.

 

Firstly, AI does not appear to take advantage of their missile ranges, and they attempt to completely beam their attacker even when they are guiding a missile, instead of using other methods to evade the incoming missile.

 

They also do not use tactics than help them maintain lock.

 

So, what happened, the ER and 120 are launched in more or less the same range regime, which combined with dodgy missile evasion means both missiles WILL reach their target.

 

Here the problem is that the F_15 notches, the 27's miss, while the 120's re-acquire quite often.

 

That's what I think is happening - and this is why you need human to test these things.

 

As D-Scythe pointed out, using very simple methods, you can make a SARH missile 100% effective.

[SwingKid]

D-Scythe, this may surprise you, but I'm in 100% agreement!

 

"Me three!"

 

GG, I agree that the AI's offensive tactics could use improvement, but what's wrong with the defensive tactics? The AI seems very adept at performing fantastic dive-for-low-altitude beaming maneuvers. I think this defense is superb, and that's part of the problem - this whole discussion, it almost goes without saying that we are only talking about missile effectiveness against a beaming target. I think this is a more common type of target in the sim than in real life, because the defensive beam drops own illumination for the offensive SARH shot. The defnse-minded AI seems to forget this.

 

-SK

[D-Scythe]

Because TWS provides a slower update than RWS does.

 

Not in the end-game, as GG pointed out.

 

Also, it is a SIM, and no real life, so I am just troubleshooting the issue. There is nothing wrong with the question, and should make perfect sense to anyone (else) reading it.

 

So if it is a simulation, there is a good reason to throw realism out the window and degrade all TARH missiles so that some aircraft that can only carry SARH missiles have a fair chance in on-line combat?

 

Yup, read the thread. And no one else can really provide any better facts than I have. I have just detailed the experiences I have had with 1.11, and is just as much a 'fact' as any testing anyone else has done. What I provided was information, you know.

 

You *didn't* provide any facts or information whatsoever, only your opinion that an SARH missile should ALWAYS hit a target if the launching aircraft keeps lock.

 

So, please enlighten me, why should an SARH missile *always* hit, and have this uber-resistence to chaff, while the AIM-120/R-77 doesn't?

 

Gazehound, for you or anyone who is interested in what conditions these tests are being carried out: my tests have aircraft split 10-11 nm apart, 5000 m (basically at the edge of WVR, as I was testing BVR), while Swingkid's and GG's tests were, from what I've gathered, launching aircraft *below* target aircraft, in the no-escape zone (hence the only way to defeat a missile is through chaff and ECM).

 

And for anyone that is still doubtful, you might find it interesting that player fired SARH missiles (AIM-7M, R-27ER) have a higher PK at 50% missile slider effectiveness than player fired TARH missiles (AIM-120, R-77) at 100% missile slider effectiveness.

 

Hmm, wonder if this is realistic? Prophet, maybe you can explain this with your "facts"? ;)

 

GG, I agree that the AI's offensive tactics could use improvement, but what's wrong with the defensive tactics? The AI seems very adept at performing fantastic dive-for-low-altitude beaming maneuvers. I think this defense is superb, and that's part of the problem - this whole discussion, it almost goes without saying that we are only talking about missile effectiveness against a beaming target. I think this is a more common type of target in the sim than in real life, because the defensive beam drops own illumination for the offensive SARH shot. The defnse-minded AI seems to forget this.

 

Not sure if this is what GG means, but even though, as you pointed out, individual defensive tactics against BVR attacks are quite effective, team based defense is sorta crap. AI flights still behave as individuals rather than a flight, if you know what I mean.

 

For example, each member of a four-ship should have an exponentially greater chance of surviving a BVR contest than members of a two-ship, but this is not the case. You can expect a four-ship in LOMAC to simply last twice as long as a two-ship.

[Prophet_169th]

You shouldnt put words in my mouth. It is rude.

 

And I did provide facts, though you fail to see them that way. The only facts that can be provided, are what is experienced in LOMAC. You may have your little 1 vs 1 controlled environment study taking place, well I am on a server with 10-20 people on it.

 

And I wonder which plane(s) usually get the most kills. F15C and MiG29S, I wonder why that is.

 

Say what you want. Collect what data you need to. AIM120's and R77's are killing way more people than any SARH. And I would also put the ET above SARH, I have seen lots of kills with those things.

 

 

 

And I never said it was realistic, so no need to try and be cute with me.

[GGTharos]

Prophet, facts would be numbers ... and you cannot do it -without- a controlled environment IMHO, unless you have a way to record all missile launches and hits/kills.

 

Anyway, there's no point in getting uptight with each other, there are some (real or perceived) problems, and we just need to get to the bottom of'em :)

[emenance]

I still dont know how to fly everything and would still APPRECIATE traing movies done with voice that go into detail about things such as Ironhands stuff. I asked him if he would consider recording them in divx format and selling them but didnt get a reply, maybe there is legal stuff about doing that but it looks like alot of people that record movies.

 

Its also a bit frustrating about movies and traing think not being able to work with new patchs or releases. But I understand why. Thats why to me a releasable collection of movies that would play in anything in regards to training for 1.1 FC at least would be great. Record them put them on a disk for sale or allow us to dl the movies and burn to cd. PLEASE

[Prophet_169th]

Actually, D-Scythe, Sk and I have provided tracks which prove that SARH are -more- effective than ARH, and it should simply not be this way.

 

I don't think you can say 'I miss as much with this as I do with that' until you actually provide a count and circumstances of each shot - otherwise it's just beloney.

 

I can say that. That has been my experience. I may have not recorded tracks, nor logged numbers, but then again I am under no obligation to do that either. You 2 are the beta testers, so you do that kind of stuff. And just because I dont, doesnt mean its beloney, last time I checked this was an open Forum, so if you want some sort of standard to posting anything, please put that in the first post.

 

As for TWS, yes, theoretically it should be easier to defeat, but only BEFORE the missile goes active (Which is NOT modelled in LOMAC). Once the missile's active, all bets are off as you're dealing with the missile's seeker exclusively (in LOMAC).

 

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Real life SARH performance is FAR WORSE than ARH. And like you said, it's a SIM, right? This is an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

And once again, I never said it wasnt a problem.

[Prophet_169th]

I have 1 track. Su33 fully loaded versus an F15 with nothing, both set to expert AI, and 50% missle slider. Now, watching the track you can see that F15 avoids a few SARH missles, before finally taking one at pretty close range. Also note, that the AI F15 doesnt release a whole lot of chaff, which I have found in my own experience to greatly help when dumping chaff.

 

Here is another track, with Su33 empty, and F15C with AMRAAM.

1st AMRAAM misses, 2nd smacks him.

 

Su33 missed with both head on shots, and killed with a rear shot. F15 misses with 1 missle, kills head on with second.

Sample Tracks.rar

[Guest ruggbutt]

*runs to the computer to check these out* ;)

[Kula66]

Prophet, I play 1 particular track over and over 1 x AI Mig-29S with 77s, expert v 15 with AMRAAMs ... and the number of times they dodge all the 120s and fall to a 9 is rediculous ... as SK said, defensively there individual tactics are spot on, diving, twisting and dumping chaff ... 9 times out of 10 the 120s go for the chaff ... as I said before you can see them pointing at the bundles of chaff!

[D-Scythe]

I have 1 track. Su33 fully loaded versus an F15 with nothing, both set to expert AI, and 50% missle slider. Now, watching the track you can see that F15 avoids a few SARH missles, before finally taking one at pretty close range. Also note, that the AI F15 doesnt release a whole lot of chaff, which I have found in my own experience to greatly help when dumping chaff.

 

Here is another track, with Su33 empty, and F15C with AMRAAM.

1st AMRAAM misses, 2nd smacks him.

 

Su33 missed with both head on shots, and killed with a rear shot. F15 misses with 1 missle, kills head on with second.

 

The basic premise of EVERYTHING we're discussing revolves around the fact that so long as you *keep* lock, the SARH missile will be gauranteed to be far more effective than an ARH missile.

 

The AI does not fly in a way to keep its lock for its SARH shot - we do. Hence, the player has to fire the missiles.

 

We're testing chaff effectiveness here, btw. So in order to eliminate every variable (or as much as possible), the player not only has to shoot the SARH missile but also keep the target in a 'look up' position (i.e. stay below target) to maintain a constant radar lock.

[S77th-GOYA]

If lookdown is so much worse, why have lofting missles? For more range that doesn't have a chance in hell of hitting the target?

[GGTharos]

Because it is fairly well known that he who fires the first shot is at an advantage. If you take notice you'll see that every weapon system always tries to increase effective range and accuracy - well, range at least - the effect is two-fold ... one, you get to do damage first, second, even if you don't, you put your opponent into a defenseive mindset and difficult situation.

 

Lofting=better change of first shot. It really doesn't matter that it can be easily evaded, what's more important is that you are MAKING the other guy evade it.

[Prophet_169th]

I gave you the "facts" you cried I couldnt provide, in a controlled environment.

 

Say what you will, the problem isnt as bad as it is made to be.

 

But do with your game as you please I suppose.

 

All hail the super F15. This game is gonna suck when you "fix" this.

 

Oh, and heres another track. Su33 with ECM at 6000m. F15 with 1 120 at 1000m.

 

The only thing I have noticed, is that the AI fires pretty close. The only time the 120 would miss, was when I fired it at or close to RMax.

 

I am not sure how countermeasures function in the game. If the chaff pulls the seeker head out of the FOV before it dissipated, then theres no target to see. I think we are seeing the effect of narrowing the FOV of the ARH. There is a conical search pattern right? How fast does it scan that pattern?

 

For an SARH missle, the plane is further back and so this doesnt effect it. If the plane holds lock, then missle always has an idea where to go.

[Pilotasso]

 

All hail the super F15. This game is gonna suck when you "fix" this.

 

 

Our experience since 1.0 should have told you by now that it wont be the case. I remenber well untill 1.02 how the F-15 was so much better that me and others could score 20-nill kill ratios with ease. How a quadruple angagement (provided that there were enough targets close to each other) would almost invariably end up in a triple or even quadruple kill. The only limitation back then was the number of missiles on board.

 

Even then there were alot more people flying and enjoying mig's and SUE's than F-15's, as will still be the case once the SARH VS ARH gets adjusted. I bet I still wont get as many kills as I used to with the AMRAAM when its adjsuted. You also wont be able to maddog at 20 miles either...so whats the hasle?

[Prophet_169th]

Just gonna have to wait and see.

[D-Scythe]

For an SARH missle, the plane is further back and so this doesnt effect it. If the plane holds lock, then missle always has an idea where to go.

 

You're kidding with this, right?

 

You do know that the "cone" of detection/reaquisition for both active radar missiles and semi-active radar missiles should be the same? So it doesn't matter if the plane is further back, because if the target is pulled out of the missile's gimbal limits by chaff, it doesn't matter if the target is still being illuminated because the seeker is pointed in another direction.

 

All hail the super F15. This game is gonna suck when you "fix" this.

 

Again, this is an ARH vs. SARH issue. Let me spell it out for you: AIM-120/R-77 vs. AIM-7/R-27ER.

 

You're just trolling now.

 

Say what you will, the problem isnt as bad as it is made to be.

 

You can keep your opinions (which you have a lot of, btw). I mean, I would start getting upset too if I'm going to lose my super-long-range deathstick :icon_roll

 

I think we are seeing the effect of narrowing the FOV of the ARH. There is a conical search pattern right? How fast does it scan that pattern?

 

Again, if you had been following this thread like you claimed, you would realize that this is not a problem of reacquisition (where narrowing the FOV would be a factor), but an issue of chaff resistence (where FOV would have no affect).

 

Let's just agree to disagree on this one, okay? You're obviously getting upset at this point. This way, you can keep your "facts" and I can keep mine.

[S77th-GOYA]

Because it is fairly well known that he who fires the first shot is at an advantage. If you take notice you'll see that every weapon system always tries to increase effective range and accuracy - well, range at least - the effect is two-fold ... one, you get to do damage first, second, even if you don't, you put your opponent into a defenseive mindset and difficult situation.

 

Lofting=better change of first shot. It really doesn't matter that it can be easily evaded, what's more important is that you are MAKING the other guy evade it.

 

When you're against a Su, do you feel at a disadvantage when he fires the first ER? To me, that just signals "time to go to work".

[GGTharos]

I don't know. What do you feel when someone starts shooting you in real life?

 

That's the one part that a sim cannot model.

 

The reaction to this is what separates the good combat pilots from the not-so-great combat pilots, and is QUITE a topic in real life air force studies. Wether you like to acknowledge it or not, it's a very important factor.

[Yellonet]

I don't know. What do you feel when someone starts shooting you in real life?

 

That's the one part that a sim cannot model.

 

The reaction to this is what separates the good combat pilots from the not-so-great combat pilots, and is QUITE a topic in real life air force studies. Wether you like to acknowledge it or not, it's a very important factor.

Maybe ED should implement a fear feature in 1.2... if you get a radar lock you start getting tunnel vision and starting to breath heavy.. when you get a missile launch warning the tunnel vision increases, vision gets blurry, breathing gets heavier, your heart starts beating like drum, you have a greater chance of pressing the wrong button and so on ;)