Convergance and gun options.

[Jordan4]

I was under the impression when reading about D.C.S P-51 that there would be an option to remove the outboard guns to make room for more ammo for the inboard guns. Also that the convergance may be able to be adjusted. I do have the P-51 module and have not been able to locate any such features. Do they actually exist? If so where can I locate them. Thank you.

[cichlidfan]

I was under the impression when reading about D.C.S P-51 that there would be an option to remove the outboard guns to make room for more ammo for the inboard guns. Also that the convergance may be able to be adjusted. I do have the P-51 module and have not been able to locate any such features. Do they actually exist? If so where can I locate them. Thank you.

 

They do not exist in the sim.

[Yo-Yo]

Generally the convergence is not a subject to change as it was in real world.

There were two patterns optimized for N-9 and then for K-14 gyro gunsight.

The optimization allows to have more or less equal bullets density at the most reasonable range of fire.

[WildBillKelsoe]

yoyo, we're still able to change the values from beta 1, yeah?

[Yo-Yo]

yoyo, we're still able to change the values from beta 1, yeah?

 

Yes, but having no accurate calculation and without careful investigation what pattern you want to have at the whole range of fire this option is almost useless.

I know that "custom convergence" is a bad habit gone from "Il-2" having simplified ballistics and the wrong idea that all borelines must be CONVERGED in one point instead of be HARMONISED as it was in real world.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Yes, but having no accurate calculation and without careful investigation what pattern you want to have at the whole range of fire this option is almost useless.

I know that "custom convergence" is a bad habit gone from "Il-2" having simplified ballistics and the wrong idea that all borelines must be CONVERGED in one point instead of be HARMONISED as it was in real world.

 

ok, I can live with convergence not set, but I can't live with these new tracers.. is there any file I can edit with 1.2.0 so I get the 1.2.0 tracers effect?

 

the rounds are just too large imho, and I don't like them, tbh.

 

EDIT: Any plans for next update to correct this?

Edited October 24, 2012 by WildBillKelsoe

[Yo-Yo]

Maybe. The first goal is to have them visible up to 600-800 m at least

[billeinstein]

Generally the convergence is not a subject to change as it was in real world.

There were two patterns optimized for N-9 and then for K-14 gyro gunsight.

The optimization allows to have more or less equal bullets density at the most reasonable range of fire.

The manual page.48:

 

"The guns can be adjusted on the ground for different convergence points based on the tactical needs of the mission."

 

And this can also be found in "AAF Manual 51-127-5" page.40

Edited October 24, 2012 by billeinstein

[WildBillKelsoe]

Maybe. The first goal is to have them visible up to 600-800 m at least

 

Well, to say that would be awesome would be an understatement. But, please, reduce their canonical sizes for C-sake!!!

[Suchacz]

Generally the convergence is not a subject to change as it was in real world.

I'm shocked, Wags told us, that EVERYTHING is subject to change :shocking::lol:

[159th_Viper]

The manual page.48:

 

"The guns can be adjusted on the ground for different convergence points based on the tactical needs of the mission."

 

And this can also be found in "AAF Manual 51-127-5" page.40

 

What was meant was that it cannot be adjusted by the pilots on the fly/as and when desired, as per RL and in the SIM.

[WildBillKelsoe]

What was meant was that it cannot be adjusted by the pilots on the fly/as and when desired, as per RL and in the SIM.

 

So it can be adjusted when I exit the sim, yeah? any plugin in the works to World like a separate Shift+' menu for convergence? even IL-2 style is famished for around these parts..

[Yo-Yo]

The manual page.48:

 

"The guns can be adjusted on the ground for different convergence points based on the tactical needs of the mission."

 

And this can also be found in "AAF Manual 51-127-5" page.40

 

Of course they can. But to make this procedure a harmonisation chart must be computed. Did you see various charts in the manuals? I know 2. The problem is that it's a not trivial task even today having powerful tools for it. 70 years ago it required more efforts to calculate it.

 

P.S. I know 3 - if P-51D has 4 guns their harmonisation can be done as for P-51B that had different chart.

 

 

And, finally, what idea do you have wanting to change the current harmonisation? Or it's only a curiosity - what if I turn this screw? :)

[159th_Viper]

So it can be adjusted when I exit the sim, yeah? any plugin in the works to World like a separate Shift+' menu for convergence? even IL-2 style is famished for around these parts..

 

No no no.........

 

The men in white lab coats did the sums and calculated the optimum convergence for the 6 Ma Deuce's. They were then calibrated in accordance with said instructions by said men in white lab coats.

 

Pilots were then told to do what they do best, ie shoot other planes. They did not fanny about with the settings, even though they probably could if they really wanted to, but why would they?

[WildBillKelsoe]

No no no.........

 

The men in white lab coats did the sums and calculated the optimum convergence for the 6 Ma Deuce's. They were then calibrated in accordance with said instructions by said men in white lab coats.

 

Pilots were then told to do what they do best, ie shoot other planes. They did not fanny about with the settings, even though they probably could if they really wanted to, but why would they?

 

I thank the men in the white coat and the black suit for such explanation. Yes, I finally got it.

[Yo-Yo]

If somebody wants to work as a white suit lab man I can help.

The first point is to pick all coordinates of the gun sight, camera and gun nozzles.

Then the 3D trace of the .50 bullet flightpath must be calculated for the certain gun elevation and azimuth. Then you need to plot the points the bullet hit the cut planes placed at the certain distances, for example, through each 200 ft.

Then each point must be a centre of the circle of bullets dispersion - different at each cut plane.

Ok, and then connect two sliders to each gun (azimuth and elevation) and try to make your own harmonisation...

[billeinstein]

I just want to know if there is a chance we can chose the convergence in the mission editor and planner. Perhaps the aircraft guns setting in DCS is depending on the lua or other config file, and make it's difficult to change and share the date in multiplay (anti-cheat).

The convergence is very important for WWII style air combat mission. We perfer different settings in dogfight, bomber intercepter and ground attack mission.

In real world, those guns shall be adjusted and corrected after installation and maintenance. In the movie "Pearl Harbor", we can see they are fireing those guns of P-40 in the hangar to adjust them.

In IL-2, even the convergence of rockets can be adjusted, and in CLoD, every single gun can be adjusted for Vertical and horizontal convergence. Now I can fly the P-51D with this fixed guns setting and kill the enemy both in the air and on the ground. But if the convergence can be adjusted, it will make the DCS:P-51D a better simmulator.

[Echo38]

In the movie "Pearl Harbor", we can see they are fireing those guns of P-40 in the hangar to adjust them.

 

Please tell me you didn't just cite a Hollywood movie as evidence of an alleged historical practice!

[WildBillKelsoe]

If somebody wants to work as a white suit lab man I can help.

The first point is to pick all coordinates of the gun sight, camera and gun nozzles.

Then the 3D trace of the .50 bullet flightpath must be calculated for the certain gun elevation and azimuth. Then you need to plot the points the bullet hit the cut planes placed at the certain distances, for example, through each 200 ft.

Then each point must be a centre of the circle of bullets dispersion - different at each cut plane.

Ok, and then connect two sliders to each gun (azimuth and elevation) and try to make your own harmonisation...

 

Whoaa.... "REP"

[billeinstein]

Please tell me you didn't just cite a Hollywood movie as evidence of an alleged historical practice!

You should say the P-40 does not have K-14 sight. It's concerning nothing about hollywood movie or not.:pilotfly:

We cannot expect the K-14 works perfect in all ranges. It mainly depends on the gun's vertical convergence.

[159th_Viper]

I just want to know if there is a chance we can chose the convergence in the mission editor and planner.

 

No.

 

You as a Pilot would have been unable to do it in WWII and you as Virtual Pilot is unable to do it now. Modelling is historically and factually correct with the current convergence setting complying with the setting utilized for the real birds and thus does not require re-setting/retuning/refining.

 

It really is as simple as that.

[leafer]

I just want to know if there is a chance we can chose the convergence in the mission editor and planner. Perhaps the aircraft guns setting in DCS is depending on the lua or other config file, and make it's difficult to change and share the date in multiplay (anti-cheat).

The convergence is very important for WWII style air combat mission. We perfer different settings in dogfight, bomber intercepter and ground attack mission.

In real world, those guns shall be adjusted and corrected after installation and maintenance. In the movie "Pearl Harbor", we can see they are fireing those guns of P-40 in the hangar to adjust them.

In IL-2, even the convergence of rockets can be adjusted, and in CLoD, every single gun can be adjusted for Vertical and horizontal convergence. Now I can fly the P-51D with this fixed guns setting and kill the enemy both in the air and on the ground. But if the convergence can be adjusted, it will make the DCS:P-51D a better simmulator.

 

Please read this again...

 

Yes, but having no accurate calculation and without careful investigation what pattern you want to have at the whole range of fire this option is almost useless.

I know that "custom convergence" is a bad habit gone from "Il-2" having simplified ballistics and the wrong idea that all borelines must be CONVERGED in one point instead of be HARMONISED as it was in real world.

[jabodude]

In the movie "Pearl Harbor", we can see they are fireing those guns of P-40 in the hangar to adjust them.

 

Here is a better vid :)

 

http://www.frequency.com/video/twilight-tear-m/56013457

[billeinstein]

Please read this again...

 

Actually, it is the AAF Manual 51-127-5 give me the thought that custom converge of P-51D/K was available in WWII.

Even the converge is set to a piont on the ground, there still will be a spreading during the flight due to the elasticity of the wings, especially in a high G turn. Bad habit or not, I just think its a way to improve the guns efficiency.

[Yo-Yo]

I just want to know if there is a chance we can chose the convergence in the mission editor and planner. Perhaps the aircraft guns setting in DCS is depending on the lua or other config file, and make it's difficult to change and share the date in multiplay (anti-cheat).

The convergence is very important for WWII style air combat mission. We perfer different settings in dogfight, bomber intercepter and ground attack mission.

In real world, those guns shall be adjusted and corrected after installation and maintenance. In the movie "Pearl Harbor", we can see they are fireing those guns of P-40 in the hangar to adjust them.

In IL-2, even the convergence of rockets can be adjusted, and in CLoD, every single gun can be adjusted for Vertical and horizontal convergence. Now I can fly the P-51D with this fixed guns setting and kill the enemy both in the air and on the ground. But if the convergence can be adjusted, it will make the DCS:P-51D a better simmulator.

 

Once again: the guns MUST BE ADJUSTED. That's right.

 

But the way they were adjusted was only one (or have 1 or 2 alternative charts).

 

Once again: the way they are managed in Il-2, CloD, Star Wars, etc, etc HAS NOTHING IN COMMON with reality. They never used real harmonisation charts and converged all weapons in one point that made possible simplified calculation of bore angles. And never gives real bullet hit area.

 

 

 

And the last point: there is no advantages if you try to tune the guns yourself because the patterns were carefully optimised.

By the way, FW-190, Bf -109 never had alternative charts to harmonize their weapons.