Decluttering the HUD while refuelling possible?

[JujuMan]

Hi All,

 

Quick question.

 

Is there a way of 'Decluttering' the HUD whilst I am trying to attempt Aerial Refuelling, just need the Important stuff.... Alt, Speed, TVV, heading etc..?

 

JJM

[MTFDarkEagle]

Hmm.. Not sure if that's possible, but if it's anywhere it's in the IFFCC Test menu.

 

However, why are you looking at your HUD while refueling? Keep your eyes glued on the KC ;)

[Hamblue]

You might want to try switching the day/night color of the hud. Might help with what ailes ya.

[GGTharos]

Actually you don't need any of that. If you're staring at your HUD, or any data on your HUD while refueling, you're doing it wrong :)

 

The only thing you need to look at is your visual references with the tanker.

 

Hi All,

 

Quick question.

 

Is there a way of 'Decluttering' the HUD whilst I am trying to attempt Aerial Refuelling, just need the Important stuff.... Alt, Speed, TVV, heading etc..?

 

JJM

[Sierra99]

Hmm.. Not sure if that's possible, but if it's anywhere it's in the IFFCC Test menu.

 

However, why are you looking at your HUD while refueling? Keep your eyes glued on the KC ;)

 

Actually... Your eyes should always be moving...when I refuel I "zoom" my view back until the top of the center windshield is even with the top of my screen. I close to precontact using HUD airspeed info then transition to visual ques from the tanker. Engines part way up canopy bow on both sides... nose of tanker slightly above top of hud...

 

Don't fixate on the PDI lights or one spot on the tanker. Just slowly get into contact and then fly formation like you would with any other airplane.

[MTFDarkEagle]

Actually... Your eyes should always be moving...when I refuel I "zoom" my view back until the top of the center windshield is even with the top of my screen. I close to precontact using HUD airspeed info then transition to visual ques from the tanker. Engines part way up canopy bow on both sides... nose of tanker slightly above top of hud...

 

Don't fixate on the PDI lights or one spot on the tanker. Just slowly get into contact and then fly formation like you would with any other airplane.

 

Yes off course ;)

I actually don't look at the PDI lights at all. My primary focus lies on the bottom of the tanker, but I'm actually looking at the wings of the tanker to keep stable and in the correct position.

[Devilman]

if you need a hand with A2A refuling i can help you out i regularly host a basic training room for DCS A-10c (world) you can find this room on Sunday 0000z

[Profet]

if you need a hand with A2A refuling i can help you out i regularly host a basic training room for DCS A-10c (world) you can find this room on Sunday 0000z

 

and where are you located?

[MTFDarkEagle]

and where are you located?

 

Tasmania.

[Boberro]

lol :D

[Profet]

Tasmania.

:(

[Devilman]

and where are you located?

 

down under.

[PFunk1606688187]

Everyone keeps saying "Don't stare at the boom", and "Don't look at the HUD".

 

I found out everyone is simultaneously wrong and right... at least for me. XD

 

I constantly scan to airspeed, boom, tanker, TVV, HUD VVI, and back around and improvise the "cycle" as I get that gut feeling that some variable is about to go out of whack.

 

At the end of the day I found nobody's advice was any good to learning to fly AAR. I found out that the only way to figure it out was to rage and crash and screw up til I got it figured out. The only advice that ended up having any meaning was the one about persisting and that it was indeed possible.

 

Best news is that cracking AAR helped me find my ideal pitch curve.

 

EDIT. Also the purest way to declutter the hud is to flip it to "standby" and you'll see if you really need the clutter after all. :P

Edited November 7, 2012 by P*Funk

[GGTharos]

Everyone keeps saying "Don't stare at the boom", and "Don't look at the HUD".

 

I found out everyone is simultaneously wrong and right... at least for me. XD

 

Then you're flat out doing it wrong. You don't need your instruments when flying close formation. Not to be harsh, but A2A refueling is a purely visual formation flight, like fingertip but a bit harder.

 

Turn the HuD off and practice that way. In fact, turn off your instruments.

[PFunk1606688187]

Then you're flat out doing it wrong. You don't need your instruments when flying close formation. Not to be harsh, but A2A refueling is a purely visual formation flight, like fingertip but a bit harder.

 

Turn the HuD off and practice that way. In fact, turn off your instruments.

 

I'm not even "staring" it down, but just seeing it as peripheral flashes of attention the status of different factors. Its hard to ignore the boom creeping up if you're trying to look at the thing behind it, but its easy to see the bulk of the tanker in the open space of the HUD especially if I drop my seat a bit. Also, the boom operating being a stupid AI means you have to work the boom more than you ought to compared to real life. The HUD speed I can see if I'm starting to drift backwards to get a feel for how much I should pump up the throttle cause sometimes that delayed effect is hard to figure between new throttle not kicking in yet or just having lost too much speed so the new throttle burst won't have the desired effect.

 

I haven't had issue managing those factors without keeping the general "watch the tanker" thing happening as the main reference Its also a transitional phase for me probably as tweaking the controller setting and trying to respond to how the controls react takes time as well since unless I had a force feedback I wouldn't know how things are really 'feeling' in the plane. Its been my experience that when you're new you focus on all these things then as it gets better it melts away.

 

I guess the hostility of the ED forums transcends a pat on the back for finally succeeding.

 

Lesson learned: In DCS don't succeed wrong! Succeed only as instructed.

[GGTharos]

Also, the boom operating being a stupid AI means you have to work the boom more than you ought to compared to real life.

 

That sounds like a bit of an excuse - yet's it's probably a bit harder on many levels and for reasons other than the AI, but it's not horrbile :)

 

The HUD speed I can see if I'm starting to drift backwards to get a feel for how much I should pump up the throttle cause sometimes that delayed effect is hard to figure between new throttle not kicking in yet or just having lost too much speed so the new throttle burst won't have the desired effect.

And this is exactly what you should not be doing - you should be using your visual cues against the tanker instead.

 

I haven't had issue managing those factors without keeping the general "watch the tanker" thing happening as the main reference Its also a transitional phase for me probably as tweaking the controller setting and trying to respond to how the controls react takes time as well since unless I had a force feedback I wouldn't know how things are really 'feeling' in the plane. Its been my experience that when you're new you focus on all these things then as it gets better it melts away.

Tweaking the controller is one thing; also, A-10 pilots don't get force feedback (the FFB will do for you what the real A-10's stick does: Trim to a particular position, but you won't get maneuvering feedback IIRC).

 

I guess the hostility of the ED forums transcends a pat on the back for finally succeeding.

 

Lesson learned: In DCS don't succeed wrong! Succeed only as instructed.

You're thinking it's hostile, but it isn't. A lot of people don't understand this simple point: You're learning bad habits, and bad habits are really hard to unlearn, whether you believe a transitional phase is good or not. You're better off doing it the right way even if it seems harder at first.

 

Now, that said, yeah, it's your game, do it however you like and kudos for refueling, but saying that all of this advice was unhelpful and then saying the response to it was hostile ... realize it's because the advice was good and you decided to do it your way instead, and you ended up with a method that seems more convenient to you, but is inferior. It results in a longer learning curve for you, or worse, you'll just never acquire the actual skills you could have for close formation flight. This is aviation basics - aviation is very visual.

 

But maybe you don't care! And that's okay, because you're a virtual pilot in a virtual A-10 and you're playing this thing to enjoy it, and no one should tell you that doing things 'the right way' should trump your fun. I sure don't do everything 'the right way', and I'm not even aware of the right way to do every single thing. I just assumed you might really want to know.

Edited November 7, 2012 by GGTharos

[PFunk1606688187]

That sounds like a bit of an excuse - yet's it's probably a bit harder on many levels and for reasons other than the AI, but it's not horrbile :)

Well lets be honest. It is harder since for one we're interfacing with a simulator that already has to translate human muscular inputs on a stick which resists and is trimmed (see FFB) to behave in a way which translates things not realistically but in a kind of design conceit. Obviously if you could wrench the stick as fast while pulling 5Gs as you can move around an unmodified X-52 it'd be a pretty unrealistic sim (even though the solution is also unrealistic but as I said a compromise).

 

Next the boom operator is an idiot since manning the boom is clearly an art and the AI is no artist (nor would many humans I'm sure) and also since the boom starts off more deployed than it does in any video of refueling I've ever seen it is even worse for learners trying to get the feel of where to be that the boom will hang low then suddenly climb up then kind of fly at you. But even then its not realistic since you're hooking on at maximum boom reach which means any negative closing rate brings you into a disconnect which gives the new pilot the anxiety of overtaking for an undetermined period of time after connecting so that he has the wiggle room.

 

On top of all these things you can't talk to the pilots or the boom operators or anybody so you don't even know how fast the tanker is going til you're in "the pocket". Lots of uncertainty for a new guy if you don't have an expert in multiplayer teaching you.

 

Now, I used to be a lot harder on ED about this (privately, haven't posted anything too nasty so far ;)) but after finally figuring it out its more of an observation than a true condemnation. Its clearly harder if you look at all the factors you need to overcome in playing a computer game. No matter the fidelity there are still imperfections. Hell, even guys with TM Warthogs have it harder on micro stick adjustments until they do a long throw mod.

 

So, like I said above, not a condemnation but clearly an observation. AI is dumb, but people are usually dumber so it only helps you make you better to overcome all that.

 

And this is exactly what you should not be doing - you should be using your visual cues against the tanker instead.

Fair enough. Its clear me this is truer the more I practice. As I get more comfortable staying in that pocket behind the tanker I find it easier to focus on the tanker and use it for reference. Still I maintain that the sometimes weird boom behavior makes a new pilot stare it down more often just to figure it all out and where to be.

 

Tweaking the controller is one thing; also, A-10 pilots don't get force feedback (the FFB will do for you what the real A-10's stick does: Trim to a particular position, but you won't get maneuvering feedback IIRC).

I think the trimmed position would be hugely helpful so you could just feel where the trim is. Overall thats not ED's fault in any respect its just the nature of interfacing with software rather than doing it in real life.

 

You're thinking it's hostile, but it isn't. A lot of people don't understand this simple point: You're learning bad habits, and bad habits are really hard to unlearn, whether you believe a transitional phase is good or not. You're better off doing it the right way even if it seems harder at first.

 

Now, that said, yeah, it's your game, do it however you like and kudos for refueling, but saying that all of this advice was unhelpful and then saying the response to it was hostile ... realize it's because the advice was good and you decided to do it your way instead, and you ended up with a method that seems more convenient to you, but is inferior. It results in a longer learning curve for you, or worse, you'll just never acquire the actual skills you could have for close formation flight. This is aviation basics - aviation is very visual.

 

But maybe you don't care! And that's okay, because you're a virtual pilot in a virtual A-10 and you're playing this thing to enjoy it, and no one should tell you that doing things 'the right way' should trump your fun. I sure don't do everything 'the right way', and I'm not even aware of the right way to do every single thing. I just assumed you might really want to know.

I get that and I don't mean to be truculent. I know its the "right" way and I'm really not contesting that. What I was getting at is not what the right way is at the final bell, but the difficulty there is in cracking the intellectual understanding of how you're doing it right or wrong.

 

I found that finally getting myself into that pocket involved both accepting and simultaneously ignoring advice (sometimes both at the same time if that can make sense) and once I got myself into the success column I could glide into that vaunted "right" way to do it.

 

Considering I'm learning this inside of my first 100 hours flying the A-10 and at the same time making constant adjustments to my stick curve I think its fair to use some crutches just to really figure out how the plane reacts to those minor inputs. Looking at the change in my relative position to the tanker, how fast it took me to accelerate, and correlating those changes between the visual tanker cue and the change in airspeed aided me in understanding the margins I was playing with. Even today (and listening to your advice I might add) as I was practicing I found my desire to check the speed was lower as I knew how it was going without seeing it. I knew I was gaining X speed for Y throttle input and it quickly blended into that natural gut feeling.

 

I think if I'd been flying formation with a friend for a few dozen hours before trying AAR I'd be doing it right but really none of us are learning these things in the right way, doing a real training regimen so I think the DIY methodology isn't as terminal so long as I bear in mind that I am putting myself onto a track for bad habits if I don't consciously transition away from them.

 

My goal is to be able to shut off my hud and refuel that way, but frankly I got tired of getting blown up every time I tried so this way gave me a better intellectual connection to the changes I had to make to my inputs and to understand if it was my stick curve or my method that was screwing me up on a particular attempt or if I was just doing it wrong.

 

I didn't mean to say the advice given is bad or wrong. I just meant really, that getting over that first hump of success is often personal and that sometimes you gotta find your own through it before you start to respect the advice of the more learned in perfecting it.

 

I don't wanna piss off the knowledgeable around here, so I appreciate your input and as a gesture the next time I go in behind a tanker I'll flip my hud to standby just for you and see if I can can the bad habits once and for all. :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Haha, well, glad it's working out for you. Most people don't try to transition from one thing to another (often even if they intend to), which is why my response was what it was.

 

Good job sticking to your regimen if it produces good results :)

[PFunk1606688187]

Well I gave it a try and... man that is easier.

 

All that typing to have to come back and be humble.

 

With all that clutter gone staying in the contact area was so easy.

 

Consider me converted.

[Jona33]

Well I gave it a try and... man that is easier.

 

All that typing to have to come back and be humble.

 

With all that clutter gone staying in the contact area was so easy.

 

Consider me converted.

 

The fact you are able to be humble is a significant boost to people's respect for you. Nothing worse than someone who will viciously argue and then quit when they can't take. Good on you man! :D

[JujuMan]

My, a quick question turning into a multi-page topic.

 

I can refuel quite competently at the moment, but every now and the the Steerpoint/Waypoint cue is smack bang over my TVV which is sending me insane, visually, I don't really look at the HuD info, but use the data in my peripheral vision when I'm focused on the tanker and the top of my canopy. It provides me with a reference point.

 

So I am really asking if I can turn off the Steerpoint/Waypoint bug in the HUD?