MTFDarkEagle Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 In DCS yes... Guess what we're stuck with ;) Lukas - "TIN TIN" - 9th Shrek Air Strike Squadron TIN TIN's Cockpit thread
JayPee Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 If we were to find out how to mod the SEMI/AUTO modes to select a programme based on the highest threat, that would already be less workload for the DCS pilot because then you would basically never have to manually switch programmes except for pre-empts etc. But at least you're not busy browsing programmes when the heat is on. i7 4790K: 4.8GHz, 1.328V (manual) MSI GTX 970: 1,504MHz core, 1.250V, 8GHz memory
GGTharos Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 My recommendation for now would be to alter the automatically selected programmes. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
JayPee Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 To do what, counter both RADAR and IR in one programme in case ED's logic has an earlier anti RADAR prog selected while an IR missile is incoming? Sounds a bit like a very inefficient and unrealistic workaround to make up for a flaw. Not quite sure what to make of your reaction.. i7 4790K: 4.8GHz, 1.328V (manual) MSI GTX 970: 1,504MHz core, 1.250V, 8GHz memory
GGTharos Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 In reality flares are prioritized. How do you know what type of missile you're facing? What if the missile is optically guided (ANY method of optical guidance) but radar-cued? In reality you don't much care about CM efficiency in terms of dispensing them, you care about not dying with CMs onboard. Sure, the threat selection logic is flawed but at the same time, so is people's impression that somehow a real MLWS knows exactly what's shooting at it. To do what, counter both RADAR and IR in one programme in case ED's logic has an earlier anti RADAR prog selected while an IR missile is incoming? Sounds a bit like a very inefficient and unrealistic workaround to make up for a flaw. Not quite sure what to make of your reaction.. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
JayPee Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 How to detect and counter an incoming IR SAM? I take an example of what you refer to would be the SA13. Question remains, how are RADAR equipped base unit(s) with optically guided missiles that go pitbull in their final stage modeled. i7 4790K: 4.8GHz, 1.328V (manual) MSI GTX 970: 1,504MHz core, 1.250V, 8GHz memory
GGTharos Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 No, could be a tunguska. You blind that one with flares in RL. I'm not sure what it is you're talking about though. Got an example? I take an example of what you refer to would be the SA13. Question remains, how are RADAR equipped base unit(s) with optically guided missiles that go pitbull in their final stage modeled. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
JayPee Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) How to detect and counter an incoming IR SAM? I am talking about currently not knowing how ED implemented the principle of a base unit with a RADAR launching a missile which -at least in its final stage- will depend on its own sensors to home in on heat/IR. Perhaps the term pitbull was confusing by which I referred to the AMRAAM: it is initially guided by its host's RADAR and finally by its own. Same would be the case with an SA-13. RADAR base unit to spot and track you, missile's IR sensor to home in on you. Edited January 13, 2014 by JayPee i7 4790K: 4.8GHz, 1.328V (manual) MSI GTX 970: 1,504MHz core, 1.250V, 8GHz memory
GGTharos Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 It seems that the CM logic is quite simple, to me at least: If there is a radar threat (ie. radar locked on to you) then it will always select an anti-radar programme. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
MTFDarkEagle Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I am talking about currently not knowing how ED implemented the principle of a base unit with a RADAR launching a missile which -at least in its final stage- will depend on its own sensors to home in on heat/IR. Perhaps the term pitbull was confusing by which I referred to the AMRAAM: it is initially guided by its host's RADAR and finally by its own. Same would be the case with an SA-13. RADAR base unit to spot and track you, missile's IR sensor to home in on you. SA-13's radar is only there for target acquisition and range IIRC.. It doen't actually have any part in guiding the missile as far as I know. Lukas - "TIN TIN" - 9th Shrek Air Strike Squadron TIN TIN's Cockpit thread
GGTharos Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) The SA-13 radar is used for range only, not even acquisition. It just pings you to get distance. As for the term 'PITBULL', it has a very AMRAAM-specific (For now) meaning that does not translate at all to IR missiles. It describes the missile having entered a specific radar tracking mode (because yes, it has more than one). Most IRH missiles are radar-cued, but not guided by the radar at all. That means their seekers are slaved to the radar and pointed at the target by the radar, or other sensor while on the rail. What seem to be thinking about is mid-course updates which is different - the missile does not lock onto the target until after it has been launched. That isn't relevant to this discussion, but if you did indeed run into such a weapon the MWS might not even know it's been launched as the rocket motor may have burned out well beyond the ability of the MWS to detect it. Edited January 13, 2014 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
ApoNOOB Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I don't really understand why to use Auto/semi at all, or advocate it. If you get locked/launched by a Radar SAM - you know it. If you are not, you 'know' its an IR. So why not go all the way with MANUAL on programm C - until you encounter an Radar threat and you just switch to programm B. :) Preventive counter measures seem not to work in DCS, from that I conclude that it is best to drop huge amounts when launched upon. Any tinkering with the programms will still have the problem that occurs when attacked by two different kinds of threats in AUTO/SEMI mode. (IR / Radar / AAA) To be honest I haven't used anything else in ages, there was a good thread here a few weeks ago where many respected members of the community laid out why anything but Manual mode was a receipe for disaster. I am talking Sim here not RL.
NhiTrac Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Question: In RL pilots fly in such a way to make them harder to be targeted/hit. Is this simulated in DCS? E.g would AI ground units have less of a chance to hit me with AA/missiles if I flew unpredictably? Intel i5 4670 | GTX 970 | 8 gb Ram | Windows 10 Thrustmaster Warthog | Saitek Rudders | Logitech G27 | Astro A40
GGTharos Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 In what way do they fly that makes them harder to be targeted/hit? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
NhiTrac Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Talking from zero experience obviously, but in books and other materials they talk about jinxing in different directions after an attack run etc while pumping out flares/chaff as opposed to just flying away straight and level. That's what I meant. Intel i5 4670 | GTX 970 | 8 gb Ram | Windows 10 Thrustmaster Warthog | Saitek Rudders | Logitech G27 | Astro A40
GGTharos Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 It'll cause problems for AAA, which should work. If you're throwing flares out, it's a bit less effective than it should be, but it should also work. These maneuvers are well practices, they're not wild or unpredictable (at least not to the pilot). [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Serp Supreme Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Talking from zero experience obviously, but in books and other materials they talk about jinxing in different directions after an attack run etc while pumping out flares/chaff as opposed to just flying away straight and level. That's what I meant. Yes, the original Lockon's A-10A tutorial advised that you do whats like a 3/4 roll while spitting out countermeasures. I've more or less forgotten about that though, as I've learned other ways and sometimes just know that you don't always have to do this. This post is protected by a pilot who has a serious lack of negotiating skills, but is absolute hell in a dogfight. If you do not belong here, please leave. You have now been properly negotiated with. MiG-29S Instant Action Mission Fix Come check out and add to my list of all landmarks in DCS World! ^that works now
ENO Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 I think the key in my inexperienced assessment is to not be where The fire control computer predicts you're going to be at the same time as the bullet it fires. No fire control radar- for a gun anyway- can take information it has... Your current range speed and heading... And go any further than to spit a round out to intersect. If you fly straight and level you will have enhanced the odds of the defense department regretting to inform your parents that your son is dead because he was stupid (yes a quote). If you're under about 7000 feet agl flying straight and level or maintaining a turn and there is an A on your rwr inner circle... I hope you are prepared for an increase of lead in your diet. "ENO" Type in anger and you will make the greatest post you will ever regret. "Sweetest's" Military Aviation Art
camsr Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 I think the AAA is overestimated here... most likely the minions will not engage the plane outwards of 3000ft. And even at close range they have significant problems leading the target :( Tested an AI Vulcan against a huey and a hind, it was pitiful.
WildBillKelsoe Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 we all know the 6 SAM F-16 video where pilot rolls unpredictably which is a cool tactic I learned to employ in A-10C. AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.
GGTharos Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 There's nothing unpredictable about what he's doing. The SAMs are defeated due to electronics and SEAD, less so by maneuver. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Eddie Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 As GG has said, all the defence manoeuvres are far from "random" or "unpredictable". They are all pre-determined and heavily practiced during training. There are specific manoeuvres to counter AAA (even different ones for different AAA systems), and specific manoeuvres to counter SAMs and AAMs. It may look random to the layman, but it is far from the case. There are documents longer than the DCS A-10C manual that contain just tactics & techniques to defeat and/or counter specific threats. If there is a potential threat out there, there are pre determined TTPs to counter it.
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