Why use dumb rockets?

[Skall]

From the perspective of a newbie that has barely begun to scratch the surface of this sim, I'm having a really hard time understanding when or why I would ever use dumb rockets. Despite some technical difficulties I'm experiencing with the guns and rockets training mission, I completed as much of it as I could and then created a simple mission that mimics the tutorial except with more ground targets to shoot at and a larger number of rockets to start out with.

 

My load out is 1150 CM rounds and 4 TERs with M-151s for a total of 84 rockets. Using the same range south of Kobuleti, I set up the following groups, one per corner: a single column of 8 cargo trucks, a single column of 8 APVs, two columns of 6 cargo trucks each, and two columns of 6 APVs each. All objects are from the static category so they don't move or fire back.

 

After flying this custom mission a couple of times I've started getting pretty decent with the cannon. Not great, but I feel like I could do some damage with it once I start braving real missions and/or the campaign. The rockets, however, have been really hit or miss (mostly miss). For example, I lined up along the single column of APVs and at 1m away fired 4 rockets from a profile I made configured in RPL SGL with a quantity of 4. Only one tank dies despite all 4 rockets lining up pretty decently with the column.

 

I circle back and go for the cannon without PAC so that I can strafe the column. I shoot a small burst at 1.5m, then nose down and shoot again at 0.6 and immediately break away. All 7 other tanks die. My success with rockets was only marginally better against the lightly armored cargo trucks. I also played with profiles in RPL PRS but I failed to notice any real difference in effectiveness.

 

Since I've only done the guns and rockets training mission, I'm strictly firing in CCIP mode. For rockets, I approach 5-6k ft AGL, throttle back and dive, usually firing when the reticle hits the 1m mark. For guns I come in shallower (2-3k ft AGL), don't slow down (as Matt Wagner's video explains) and fire between 1.5m and 0.5m depending on the vehicles armor (more armor=closer).

 

I contrast my lack of success against videos that show guided rockets/bombs hitting with pin-point accuracy and I have to wonder why I would waste racks on dumb rockets. What is their role? What objective have you had in the past were the solution was clearly dumb rockets? How do you employ them for maximum effectiveness? If they are this bad in CCIP, is it even worth the hassle in CCRP with the additional inaccuracy?

[shagrat]

Dumb rockets are usually used against unarmored targets like infantry and trucks etc. Unfortunately the devastating effect against infantry is not simulated to perfection. Seems despite soldiers standing around like target dummies, they are simulated as lying in fortified foxholes :D

Still the use of WP smoke marker rockets for AFAC in multiplayer is a good use case as well or illumination rockets during night raids...

Simply avoid MK I against any armor! It's like throwing a handful of dry peas after a fly: one hit will sure do devastating damage, but did you ever succeed? :music_whistling:

[Skall]

I see. Glad to hear they are as ineffective as my experience dictates despite my nub-ness.

[Priest]

Why use dumb rockets? Because you only carry 1050 rounds of CM and sometimes anything else is just overkill for the target. The problem is a near miss just isn't enough for a kill with rockets, in my experience you pretty much need a direct hit to kill almost any vehicle and the CCIP solutions just aren't accurate enough for that in most cases. I like to shoot single rockets on my run in and then adjust subsequent shots based on how far I was off on the first, especially against targets on hilly terrain. If they're out in the open on level ground the CCIP solution should be pretty accurate.

 

 

Also, think about what you're employing them against, if you're shooting up trucks (or anything else that isn't shooting back) get in CLOSE and put the rocket into the driver's seat. Save that burst of CM for something else.

[Skall]

Why use dumb rockets? Because you only carry 1050 rounds of CM and sometimes anything else is just overkill for the target. The problem is a near miss just isn't enough for a kill with rockets, in my experience you pretty much need a direct hit to kill almost any vehicle and the CCIP solutions just aren't accurate enough for that in most cases. I like to shoot single rockets on my run in and then adjust subsequent shots based on how far I was off on the first, especially against targets on hilly terrain. If they're out in the open on level ground the CCIP solution should be pretty accurate.

 

 

Also, think about what you're employing them against, if you're shooting up trucks (or anything else that isn't shooting back) get in CLOSE and put the rocket into the driver's seat. Save that burst of CM for something else.

 

I'll take your advice and try shooting closer but they are going to be a tough sell. I'm bewildered by how effective a small, well-placed burst of CM strafing a column can be and just as equally dismayed by how limp rockets seem in comparison. I'll try a few rounds getting a bit more close and personal with rockets. I'll go for 0.7-0.5m distance and see how that works out.

[WildBillKelsoe]

From the perspective of a newbie that has barely begun to scratch the surface of this sim, I'm having a really hard time understanding when or why I would ever use dumb rockets. Despite some technical difficulties I'm experiencing with the guns and rockets training mission, I completed as much of it as I could and then created a simple mission that mimics the tutorial except with more ground targets to shoot at and a larger number of rockets to start out with.

 

My load out is 1150 CM rounds and 4 TERs with M-151s for a total of 84 rockets. Using the same range south of Kobuleti, I set up the following groups, one per corner: a single column of 8 cargo trucks, a single column of 8 APVs, two columns of 6 cargo trucks each, and two columns of 6 APVs each. All objects are from the static category so they don't move or fire back.

 

After flying this custom mission a couple of times I've started getting pretty decent with the cannon. Not great, but I feel like I could do some damage with it once I start braving real missions and/or the campaign. The rockets, however, have been really hit or miss (mostly miss). For example, I lined up along the single column of APVs and at 1m away fired 4 rockets from a profile I made configured in RPL SGL with a quantity of 4. Only one tank dies despite all 4 rockets lining up pretty decently with the column.

 

I circle back and go for the cannon without PAC so that I can strafe the column. I shoot a small burst at 1.5m, then nose down and shoot again at 0.6 and immediately break away. All 7 other tanks die. My success with rockets was only marginally better against the lightly armored cargo trucks. I also played with profiles in RPL PRS but I failed to notice any real difference in effectiveness.

 

Since I've only done the guns and rockets training mission, I'm strictly firing in CCIP mode. For rockets, I approach 5-6k ft AGL, throttle back and dive, usually firing when the reticle hits the 1m mark. For guns I come in shallower (2-3k ft AGL), don't slow down (as Matt Wagner's video explains) and fire between 1.5m and 0.5m depending on the vehicles armor (more armor=closer).

 

I contrast my lack of success against videos that show guided rockets/bombs hitting with pin-point accuracy and I have to wonder why I would waste racks on dumb rockets. What is their role? What objective have you had in the past were the solution was clearly dumb rockets? How do you employ them for maximum effectiveness? If they are this bad in CCIP, is it even worth the hassle in CCRP with the additional inaccuracy?

 

Can u post this mission here and a track of you shooting?

[Skall]

Here's the mission I built for myself. Nothing fancy, no waypoints or mark points. Just me, Kobuleti, and some static vehicles in the range.

 

I use this mission to practice my cold starts, some ground attack, and then my landings. Tracks tend to get pretty big since I last quite a while zooming and missing like a nub. My last run was 9MB. I'll try to use skydrive or something to post my tracks.

A-10C GA Range Kobuleti.miz

[MarkuzJuniuz]

I also question the use of rockets. In the first A-10c instant action, convoy group, I usually miss the infantry with mavs or bombs. No matter how centered or visible the standing guy is already on the pipper I can easily expend all my rockets without getting the guy. I made it my own personal quest to hit the guy with a rocket but with the most extreme tries to score I hit him with my plane (crash on him) instead. :D

[Mouse]

I don't think rockets are working as they should. They seem to be very undermodelled, so I avoid them except for smoke markers.

[PFunk1606688187]

Fragmentation is not modeled in DCS. I dunno if this means that the blast radius of the rockets is also lower than it should, but basically rockets are utterly useless crap.

 

For the work you have to put in to hit something you get almost no reward. Its good for WP for doing AFAC as someone said, otherwise its only good if you like feeling like the game is taunting you.

 

And its a shame, because this actually makes killing really easy infantry one of the harder things to do in this game. Its pretty silly really, that you have to basically be perfect and snipe targets with an area effect weapon.

[Sundowner.pl]

There is no fuse choice, and the warheads work... simply wrong. A heavy 7.7kg fragmentation warhead with timed, or proximity fuse, should be quite deadly to infantry and small vehicles. The WP round should create huge white puff of smoke and fire - right now it just a smoke, less than a miniature smoke flare in my survival packet. It's a 4kg of phosphor and bursting charge for crying out loud!

 

Then change fuse on WP round from point detonating to proximity, or timed, and get a rain of fire covering target area... would probably result in enormous fps hit though ;)

 

The inaccuracy is quite correct, the end effect, not so much. Hope this will change with time.

 

PS. That's how a WP FFAR going off looks like:

Edited November 13, 2012 by Sundowner.pl

[PFunk1606688187]

Yes, the smoke animation is pretty rudimentary. The uniformity of it is tragic really.

[arteedecco]

I have to agree, with a mild exception. The Su-25T has a seemingly wider array of rockets, some of which pack a decent punch. But yeah... still, I think the modeling is not where I would like it to be.

 

I actually posted a very similar sentiment in another thread in the DCSW forum, relating more to the smoke / burning effect of rockets and how it is not enough. If you watch vids on RL rocket attacks the effects are pretty substantial with plenty of smoke... even if the target itself wasn't combustable.

 

Had a similar discussion about CBU-105 / 97 modeling a while back. They were not tracking individual skeets and then doing damage based on them... it was just an area effect weapon basically despite the nice animation. I know they've worked on that some... well... the animation at least, but maybe the modeling of the skeet damage too.

 

The net from that thread was that a re-working of the damage model in general was in order, but that would come in a future release... we may not be to that release yet...

 

Seems w/ frag type weapons, they need to do something similar to the skeets recommendations where they model a certain number of fragments and ray-cast out from them and do kinetic damage. After all, they model the kinetic off of the GAU-8 among other things, each round too as I understand it, so even 50 fragments off a rocket wouldn't be too terrible to handle I would think.

[Exorcet]

Rockets are inexpensive. If you're simulating the logistics of combat, sometimes you don't want to spend big money trowing Mavericks are everything.

[arteedecco]

Rockets are inexpensive. If you're simulating the logistics of combat, sometimes you don't want to spend big money trowing Mavericks are everything.

 

+1 Very good point. I'd meant to mention that myself. That's something that can be modeled in campaign design over the coarse of an operation or war, but is rarely addressed in the more common "sandbox" type missions you see out there.

 

In RL they are obviously quite effective within their fragmentation envelope... would be nice if that was reflected in DCSW so they would be more commonly used in missions.