Missile Dynamics - A discussion

[lunaticfringe]

one more thing... f15 only seen combat with under trained outgunned opponents....it has not seen combat with flankers nor migs which were piloted by EXPERIENCED pilots....

 

Yes, because the Iraqi Air Force wasn't, as you say, experienced, having fought an EIGHT YEAR WAR with Iran.

 

Because the Syrian Air Force wasn't, as you say, experienced, having gone through conflict after conflict with the Israelis for FIFTEEN YEARS.

 

Because the only *Soviet* pilots getting action were doing so in the air to ground role in Afghanistan.

 

Because less than 100 flight hours per year is going to match up with 300+ flight hours per year, on average.

 

Beause nobody in the Soviet air arms outside of Pugachev actually knew how to fly the aircraft.

 

And on and on and on. The hits, erm, I mean excuses, just keep comin'.

[SFAL]

There are jo exuses...

 

on the matter of the 90s iraq war....

 

as far my knowlage goes.. there was only one time where the iraqy pilots had the guts to engage NATO planes.. the rest of them got cold feet and ran to iran.... the ones that did get shot down... well they were runing to iran...

 

 

on the 8year iraq-iran war... well uncle sam was supplying the iranians with military hardware... and intel and "other" resurces to iraq...

ist the great game also known as divide and qonquer

 

training... yes the us airforce and the rest do have higher flight hours becouse the military spending is as mouch ad the rest of the world army togheter... and look where it lead... to the verge of economic collapse.. meanwhile russia became the energy superpower... gas oil exports are briging in so much wonga that they have a large amount to spend on NEW hardwarre..

 

the us is in permament war footing since the 2nd world war... and the equipment AND manpower are worn out since 9/11...

 

but hey... it wont change the fact all this heated argument that the players who like to fly russian jets like to have an equal chance...

no real life manual chart and so on will change the fact that this is a GAME

 

so.. all of you who are upset that this issue has been raised.... relax and enjoy yourself... its a game and it would be nice if it becomes fair.

 

we see in a few weeks i hope... untill then russian jet pilots will get a lot of practice and the eagle pilots will keep doing what they can do best... 8amraams and just click and kill.

 

and i agree with mandrake... keep the amraams as they are... but give the russian missiles a bit more bite and all will be happy....

[winchesterdelta1]

There are jo exuses...

 

on the matter of the 90s iraq war....

 

as far my knowlage goes.. there was only one time where the iraqy pilots had the guts to engage NATO planes.. the rest of them got cold feet and ran to iran.... the ones that did get shot down... well they were runing to iran...

 

 

on the 8year iraq-iran war... well uncle sam was supplying the iranians with military hardware... and intel and "other" resurces to iraq...

ist the great game also known as divide and qonquer

 

training... yes the us airforce and the rest do have higher flight hours becouse the military spending is as mouch ad the rest of the world army togheter... and look where it lead... to the verge of economic collapse.. meanwhile russia became the energy superpower... gas oil exports are briging in so much wonga that they have a large amount to spend on NEW hardwarre..

 

the us is in permament war footing since the 2nd world war... and the equipment AND manpower are worn out since 9/11...

 

but hey... it wont change the fact all this heated argument that the players who like to fly russian jets like to have an equal chance...

no real life manual chart and so on will change the fact that this is a GAME

 

so.. all of you who are upset that this issue has been raised.... relax and enjoy yourself... its a game and it would be nice if it becomes fair.

 

we see in a few weeks i hope... untill then russian jet pilots will get a lot of practice and the eagle pilots will keep doing what they can do best... 8amraams and just click and kill.

 

and i agree with mandrake... keep the amraams as they are... but give the russian missiles a bit more bite and all will be happy....

 

After this argument i think i'm going to play HAWX and ACE combat. Those are fair and gamey.

Why give the Russian missiles a bit more bite, if it's going to be unrealistic?

Flying the mig's and su's are great fun as they are now cause you actually have to be smart and use tactics. If it's realistic to give the russian missiles a bit more bite than i say do it. If not than keep it this way.

And if you know that the F-15's are carrying 8 AMRAAMS than change your tactics according to it and offcourse fly with friends.

Man i love FC3... to bad i have to fly it when at a friends place at the moment.

[alexej21]

Does HOJ works in current version?

 

I saw it on bug list, but I don't know whether it works partially or not at all...

 

Thx.

[GGTharos]

It isn't going to become fair. If you do not like dissimilar air combat, don't do dissimilar air combat since you're bound to run into unfairness.

 

so.. all of you who are upset that this issue has been raised.... relax and enjoy yourself... its a game and it would be nice if it becomes fair.

[GGTharos]

It works, but HoJ implementation is not what it could be ... also HoJ depends on the type of jammer. There is no 'HoJ' against a deception jammer for example, not the way you would think of it when it comes to HoJ vs. a noise jammer.

 

Does HOJ works in current version?

 

I saw it on bug list, but I don't know whether it works partially or not at all...

 

Thx.

[SFAL]

so delta... what tactic do you recomend?

i would love to hear how do manage 8amraams on you...

 

homestly 1vs1 how do u do it?

[GGTharos]

You fight back with your own weapons and notch to the merge. While I do that piloting a virtual F-15, you can do the same with a flanker.

 

It isn't easy, and it might be a little more difficult for a flanker, or easier in some cases.

 

Regardless of what you fly, merging with an F-15C hauling 120's that knows you are there requires patience, knowledge and precision in execution of your tactics ... but it will always almost be a notch to the merge.

 

Right now you are impeded by the high visibility of the flanker model (the MiG does not have this problem IIRC) but once the new flanker model has its LODs adjusted, it should be easier to dissapear in the ground clutter visually.

 

PS: Then again, I would only do this 1v1 to practice the technique ... I'm not all that interested in 1v1 otherwise. You will find that your options expand when you are flying with a capable wingman.

Edited January 3, 2013 by GGTharos

[104th_Cobra]

Well, we will never know that 8 ARH are incoming :)

 

Normally, in a MiG-29, I'll never try to notch. Maintaining corner speed and maneuvering out of the missiles plane, guiding the launched SARH with the target inside of radar gimbal; change altitude and launch at maximum energy state, dragging the incoming missiles again to the terrain clutter. Go beneath the F-15 radar and stick it in the belly. Or not. :)

 

If the incoming ARH missiles were launched inside 20 km, You're probably in trouble :)

 

It depends on the "size of your spear". If it's a short one, You will want to bring the fight closer.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Xpto

[Cali]

I think someone needs to go play a different game if they want balance. Maybe make a server and only give the F-15's AIM-7's and AIM-9's, that should make you happy. Don't expect to go in a public server and not see a bunch of people flying 15's and shooting 120's up people's tail pipes and in their face. See how long those servers stay busy. Sounds like someone also needs to work on their tactics......once again war isn't fair, get over it SFAL!

[GGTharos]

At some point missiles might get smarter too ... no more diving into the ground with you etc ... but in any case, any guy who just shoots all 8 ARH at you tends to be reasonably easy to defeat. Usually :)

 

On the other hand, the guy who presses you and gets closer and closer, forcing you defensive with each one... you are probably in a lot of trouble.

 

Well, we will never know that 8 ARH are incoming :)

 

Normally, in a MiG-29, I'll never try to notch. Maintaining corner speed and maneuvering out of the missiles plane, guiding the launched SARH with the target inside of radar gimbal; change altitude and launch at maximum energy state, dragging the incoming missiles again to the terrain clutter. Go beneath the F-15 radar and stick it in the belly. Or not. :)

 

If the incoming ARH missiles were launched inside 20 km, You're probably in trouble :)

 

It depends on the "size of your spear". If it's a short one, You will want to bring the fight closer.

[104th_Cobra]

On the other hand, the guy who presses you and gets closer and closer, forcing you defensive with each one... you are probably in a lot of trouble.

 

When pressing, I'm not sitting and sightseeing. Sometimes it is insane, even with an opposing F-15C also agressive. I call it barrel rolling till death :D. Until the merge. This new missile dynamics is adding a lot to gameplay.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Xpto

[GGTharos]

The barrel rolling will get you killed.

[104th_Cobra]

The barrel rolling will get you killed.

 

Pressing while wide barrel rolling at maximum angular speed, "could" get me killed :D . And, while executing the pressing, there must be a continuous evaluation of the situation. If in clear disadvantage, disengage.

 

The "normal" F-15 solution, for an agressive bandit, will be a second ARH launch and extend.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Xpto

[GGTharos]

No, it will get you killed.

[Cali]

Great, unrealistic tactics coming unto light.

[104th_Cobra]

Pressing this way and loose contact with the bandit can bring cold sweat, sometimes :D

[alexej21]

It works, but HoJ implementation is not what it could be ... also HoJ depends on the type of jammer. There is no 'HoJ' against a deception jammer for example, not the way you would think of it when it comes to HoJ vs. a noise jammer.

 

Thank you for the answer.

 

To make it clear. Can I shoot at F15C which is using Jammer ?

 

How about PK with firing from distance and close. Jammer vs Non Jammer

 

Thank you,

[104th_Cobra]

Great, unrealistic tactics coming unto light.

 

Cali, we are still in a 1vs1, SARH vs ARH situation. And sure, I admit that pressing against incoming ARHs can be unrealistic :)

[lunaticfringe]

as far my knowlage goes.. there was only one time where the iraqy pilots had the guts to engage NATO planes.. the rest of them got cold feet and ran to iran.... the ones that did get shot down... well they were runing to iran...

 

One could get better knowledge on the subject from an episode of Dogfights. Otherwise, the Iraqis were so inept as airmen they didn't know how to use a compass, running *west* instead of east. But hey, it's cool. It's the internet, everybody can throw their two cents in, uneducated or no.

 

on the 8year iraq-iran war... well uncle sam was supplying the iranians with military hardware... and intel and "other" resurces to iraq...

ist the great game also known as divide and qonquer

 

Yes, because the United States sold the Shah hardware that became the property of the Ayatollah during their revolution. Oh, and they sold a couple million in HAWK systems (along with other general munitions) at an exorbitant premium during Iran-Contra in the aim of getting the release of US hostages.

 

Like I said, everybody can toss out their opinion.

 

training... yes the us airforce and the rest do have higher flight hours becouse the military spending is as mouch ad the rest of the world army togheter...

 

Oh, but training and experience is what counts. Unless it's one of these post-Soviet wunderbirds with lower base technology and lower overall quality. THEN training doesn't mean anything, and everyone should be operating on a level playing field because the Russians have some yet as unsubstantiated magic propensity to just "be effective" when their hardware, their doctrine, their tactics, and their training is deficient.

 

and look where it lead... to the verge of economic collapse.. meanwhile russia became the energy superpower... gas oil exports are briging in so much wonga that they have a large amount to spend on NEW hardwarre..

 

Because the United States didn't purchase F-22s, and it isn't purchasing F-35s, multiple carriers, and so on. And because the United States isn't on track to become the world's largest oil producer (currently Saudi Arabia) by 2020. Cause, that would, you know, invalidate your argument.

 

the us is in permament war footing since the 2nd world war... and the equipment AND manpower are worn out since 9/11...

 

Yes, but hey, the Soviets turned Russians lost ten years in development from their permanent war footing since the Second World War because of their own economic collapse.

 

What's sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander; I think I love that argument most of all.

 

"It's a game". No, it's a simulation. By your argument, let's tone down the Flanker's turn performance, or amp up that of the F-15. And provide the latter the AIM-9X. And provide the latter with datalink. Because it's supposed to be all about being "fair", since it's a "game".

 

Funny how the Russian fans *NEVER* make that case. You want equality, except when it doesn't work to your advantage. This is what is referred to as "hypocrisy". But that's okay; like I said before, it's the internet- everybody is allowed to throw their two cents in, and show their true colors doing so.

[Exorcet]

My propossitions are next:

1) No F15 at servers.

2) Start competition for best mod for missiles and planes flight model.Wining mod is goin to be installed on the server of the 51-st and we are going to play as we shud be.We have to do it,becouse ED wont.

 

F15 pilots are free to play at thair own playground agains each other and having great fun.

 

I'd rather not lose thr 51st server.

 

Why not just use the Russian advantages in tactics and missions design?

 

(GCI + datalink, home territory SAM's, EOS, etc)

 

The game is balanced as it is, we don't need the F-15 and Su-27 to be the same plane to achieve balance. That just makes things boring.

[GGTharos]

Ok, in terms of FC3, it is not worth your while to shoot F-15C which is using jammer before burn-through. It is too far. Wait until you achieve burn-through and the jammer no longer masks his range.

 

It may be the case that HoJ will not work with R-27 ... this may have been implemented some time ago, but I do not remember very well.

 

There is no big difference in PK for jammer vs not jammer, the difference in PK is dictated only by distance of missile launch. For this reason it would be good for jammer implementation to change.

 

Thank you for the answer.

 

To make it clear. Can I shoot at F15C which is using Jammer ?

 

How about PK with firing from distance and close. Jammer vs Non Jammer

 

Thank you,

[GGTharos]

My point was simply that you're fighting an un-tuned missile and the barrel roll technique works for now. However, both AMRAAM and R-77 are 9-g target capable, and you're not pulling 9g's if you don't want to black-out. It's a matter of missile tuning.

 

Yes, you can waste the missile with a barrel roll from further away, but that won't last forever either ... eventually missiles will get smarter, and not all your fights will be on the deck.

 

Cali, we are still in a 1vs1, SARH vs ARH situation. And sure, I admit that pressing against incoming ARHs can be unrealistic :)

[lunaticfringe]

Why not just use the Russian advantages in tactics and missions design?

 

Because griefing is easier.

 

People complaining about F-15s flying like they're supposed to (shooting an active weapon, turning to gimbal on a potential threat aircraft, and maintaining overall E-pole separation) means that something is programmed correctly, even when the losing side holds an advantage that the Eagle should have with a higher level of capability (the datalink).

[104th_Cobra]

I'd rather not lose thr 51st server.

 

Why not just use the Russian advantages in tactics and missions design?

 

(GCI + datalink, ...SAM's,...)

 

That should bring a more realistic scenario. The problem is that it will be need team coordination to ingress in enemy territory: organizing "Alpha" packages with Iron Hands, Strikers and TarCAPs.

 

My point was simply that you're fighting an un-tuned missile and the barrel roll technique works for now. However, both AMRAAM and R-77 are 9-g target capable, and you're not pulling 9g's if you don't want to black-out. It's a matter of missile tuning.

True.