Offline Campaigns Obsolete?

[WindWpn]

hello all,

 

I have had DCS BS since the beginning as well as the A-10c. Back in the "old days" of BS there were many new offline missions and campaigns released with the pinnacle 3rd party offline being the VERGEEV Group Campaign. Since release of DCS World and the module integration, we seem to have lost not only these old campaigns, but it seems that campaign designers are no longer focused on producing new entries in World. Is there a reason for the lack of offline Campaign opportunities?

 

I jump into DCS every once in a while to keep sharp on cockpit operation and flight stick button memory, but its only the few packaged missions and few replayed included campaigns. Immersive offline campaigns were the real draw in the old days, and I miss checking in here on the forum to find new submissions.

 

Thus, has the glory days of offline campaign design ended with release of DCS World, or are the designers simply holding out for something?? Or, am I looking in the wrong place for offline campaign ops for World??

 

~S~

wind

[Mainstay]

Kinda feel the same atm... personally i expected way more user made campaigns for world and for FC3.

[Endy]

I'd suggest you try flying online, perhaps with a group of friends or joining some squadron. There are usually people in different squadrons devoted to creating new missions for themselves and their squad mates.

 

I understand you're mainly looking for offline experiences due to whatever reasons, but trust me, if you fly online with friends (even competent strangers) the experience is much stronger and, at least for me, better that anything you can get playing singleplayer. Especially that now DCS World and integration of all the modules gives you the possibility to have different aircraft playable in the same mission, ground attack planes, fast movers, choppers and even having ground commanders to control the troops adn/or act as JTAC's.

[SNAFU]

Every new update in DCS changes something to some degree and every change might break a mission, which was doing well in previous versions.

 

To update and check an old mission with the latest patch is a constant struggle and time consuming. (in case you have never done this, but to build small, good coop mission, with a few flags, triggers, random elements, correct brevity, briefing, voice and concept easily eats up most of spare time for 1-3 months, updating, testing, reworking them does take almost the same amount of time, if you did not document all your triggers, logics and events very well - you will not remember why trigger X did in combination with flag Y, action Z)

 

Some times DCS evolves faster then mission designer can rework their missions and some were at some point just fed up, with going through the old stuff again and again, trying to figure out, what broke what, and why (at least I was). I guess we should be lucky for every mission you can find, which was reworked to be up to date.

 

And dedicating your spare time to a project, which is probably obsolete, before you even get close to a finish is something stupid only few are willing take. ;)

Edited December 6, 2012 by SNAFU

[Jona33]

I've done the first two missions for the Georgian Havoc campaign by Igormk updated to BS2 but I need to check them out with the latest version.

[WindWpn]

Online sounds great, but I am very active online in il2 thus not sure if I could devote the time to two+ online sims. Wife, kids, job, life, etc... However, DCS offline was quite good and if I had to run out for something, the Pause button works great.

 

As of change in DCS, I am wondering now that World is released and basically stable, if there is much more that will change in the mission builder/campaign builder? Or perhaps, an effort can be made to allow compatibility with World campaign design to avoid the risks of change designers fear.

 

All in all, there were some nice old offline campaigns back in the day, and it seemed a relatively robust campaign design community. Hope it comes back!

 

Perhaps ED needs to run a new World Campaign Design Competition like they did back in the old days to spur offline campaign development?! Didn't Igormk win it last time with his Georgian Havoc?

 

~S~

wind

Edited December 6, 2012 by WindWeapon

[Ripcord]

I am sorta/kinda working on my template for building a campaign. But I am doing it very slowly, ooooh sooooo slowly. The concern that ED will break something is part of the trepidation, that is true enough. They are also fixing small things and adding the occasional feature here and there, and there are a few key items that I am really waiting for (like the ability to save & read persistent variables from mission to mission).

 

Then I just get to the point where, like you, I start to think that it is stable and this going to be pretty much what we have, and then they release something major, like FC3. So I'm fiddling with it, watching and learning from others, while experimenting with triggers and techniques and what-not to better understand what works well and will be reliable.

 

The ME is powerful and keeps getting better, and the community has done a lot to unlock the random events and replayability for each INDIVIDUAL mission. I will say that the campaign editor and structure is powerful enough that it really has not been fully utilized so far, at least not that I am aware of. By using a large enough array of missions for each level of the campaign ladder, a good builder can release very compelling and very replayable campaign, given enough good content. Right now I am exploring a number creative ways in which we can link missions together and create plausible/playable transitions from mission to mission.

 

If/when I do release something I want to do it big and do it right.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Ripcord

[msalama]

...close to a finish is something stupid only few are willing take. ;)

 

DCSW is still in a flux, but ED absolutely has to have a code / feature freeze at some point if they want a 3rd party addon ecosystem to develop and succeed. And I'm 100% sure they know this...

[Grimes]

In terms of compatibility between version to version, I'd say the editor is pretty stable in that regard. It should be a smooth transition from anything created in DCS: A-10C or BS2 to the current version of DCS World. Anything from prior versions like FC2 or BS1 will need a few adjustments here and there, but its not like those missions are a total loss. There have been a few bumps down the line with some features, but for the most part the editor has been one of the more stable features of the sim over the last few months.

 

Right now I am exploring a number creative ways in which we can link missions together and create plausible/playable transitions from mission to mission.

*cough* scripting engine + modding a few files. ;)

[Manuel]

I can understand that point of WindWeapon, because online gaming takes time, more than you expect. Last time we wanted to just fly a little and take out some tanks.... well 4hours there you go. I mean, we should have both: Online expieriences (which btw has to be optimized quite a bit: Serverbrowser, filter options, sorting options etc.) and a campaign with turning points, decisions, story and so on (maybe developed by 3rd party).

 

Any official statement on this?

[Heli Shed]

I am sorta/kinda working on my template for building a campaign. But I am doing it very slowly, ooooh sooooo slowly. The concern that ED will break something is part of the trepidation, that is true enough. They are also fixing small things and adding the occasional feature here and there, and there are a few key items that I am really waiting for (like the ability to save & read persistent variables from mission to mission).

 

Then I just get to the point where, like you, I start to think that it is stable and this going to be pretty much what we have, and then they release something major, like FC3. So I'm fiddling with it, watching and learning from others, while experimenting with triggers and techniques and what-not to better understand what works well and will be reliable.

 

The ME is powerful and keeps getting better, and the community has done a lot to unlock the random events and replayability for each INDIVIDUAL mission. I will say that the campaign editor and structure is powerful enough that it really has not been fully utilized so far, at least not that I am aware of. By using a large enough array of missions for each level of the campaign ladder, a good builder can release very compelling and very replayable campaign, given enough good content. Right now I am exploring a number creative ways in which we can link missions together and create plausible/playable transitions from mission to mission.

 

If/when I do release something I want to do it big and do it right.

 

I'm not sure of the overall point you are trying to make here except the very obvious caution you display in your text regarding your own 'super campaign' series, which to be frank, is certainly not the first, nor will it be the biggest. To say that the ME has not been utilised fully so far in missions that are currently available is absolute drivel. I've been making missions for years, and MP campaigns are my signature. Multiple transitions, unsure endings and certainly incorporated with pathway possibilities.

 

As for ME stability, well, welcome to the frustration of intelligent editors. ED has to move with the times for sure on each patch release, but I personally haven't seen any instability of mismatchs since 1.1.0.9.

 

'T'

[WildBillKelsoe]

I think mission designers are waiting for ED to finish the job. with constant updates, mission designers will have a hard time updating their own missions. The key word here being 'DCS World Gold', with all modules to their fullest. It will take time, but campaigns are sort of repetitive in nature. Single missions are far nice.

[Ripcord]

I'm not sure of the overall point you are trying to make here except the very obvious caution you display in your text regarding your own 'super campaign' series, which to be frank, is certainly not the first, nor will it be the biggest. To say that the ME has not been utilised fully so far in missions that are currently available is absolute drivel. I've been making missions for years, and MP campaigns are my signature. Multiple transitions, unsure endings and certainly incorporated with pathway possibilities.

 

As for ME stability, well, welcome to the frustration of intelligent editors. ED has to move with the times for sure on each patch release, but I personally haven't seen any instability of mismatchs since 1.1.0.9.

 

'T'

 

What post were you reading?

 

I said that the ME has been used well, but the campagin engine so far has not. There is a lot, I believe, that can still be done there. I am not an expert in MP, but neither was that the topic of this thread or my post (hint: it was offline campaigns). If you are going to call my opinions/comments drivel, at least read them first.

 

The point of the post is that there is more than one reason why we don't see more offline campaigns.

 

Lastly, I'm not promising any huge mega-campaigns. I'm working on a template at this point, and just contemplating it while I learn and build my skills.

 

I think mission designers are waiting for ED to finish the job. with constant updates, mission designers will have a hard time updating their own missions. The key word here being 'DCS World Gold', with all modules to their fullest. It will take time, but campaigns are sort of repetitive in nature.

 

WBK, thank you, this summarizes the discussion here pretty well, I would say. You also make another good point here, regarding the nature of the campaigns. Many of those that I have looked at have only one mission per campaign level. So we call them campaigns, but really they are just a series of missions played in a sequence. There can be a great deal of random events built WITHIN each mission, but I've not seen any campaigns yet that give a number of varied/different missions that can be selected at random at any given level of a campaign ladder (surely they are out there, but I've not seen them myself).

Edited December 9, 2012 by Ripcord
bad grammar

[wolle]

Would be nice if there were some on-line training classes (maybe similar to what was recently done for flying the hog, by Tyger I think). Then more people (including myself) would be able to learn how to put together nice missions and campaigns. With all the lua and mist, the ME is getting pretty complicated...

[Grimes]

Would be nice if there were some on-line training classes (maybe similar to what was recently done for flying the hog, by Tyger I think). Then more people (including myself) would be able to learn how to put together nice missions and campaigns.

 

There are a few users on the forums who are pretty dedicated to answering mission editor related questions. Unlike some aspects of the procedure of flying, not everything in the mission editor is set in stone. By that I mean if you asked how to accomplish a random event you will get a dozen different answers with each being as acceptable as the others. Honestly, the best way to learn the editor is to read the manual, play around in the editor, and ask questions when they arise. I guess if there is interest an editing tutorial night could be arranged.

 

 

With all the lua and mist, the ME is getting pretty complicated...

 

Yes and no. There will always be the GUI aspect of the editor and things like triggers will probably never be removed. The relationship of the Simulator Scripting engine and the mission editor is one where both have advantages and disadvantages, but one is NOT meant to replace the other. I'm willing to bet that the mission editor and the SSE will be evolving and adding more and more features down the road.

 

I understand the concern. The SSE can do some things the editor simply cannot. As a result there is a desire to use it because it has more capabilities. What Speed and I have done with Mist is to try to make it easy to use and understand, hopefully anyone else who develops scripts will try to develop it with the same goals. However I don't want there to be a pressure to adopt using the SSE or Mist. It won't do the community any good if people get the idea in their head that missions with scripting are always going to be better than missions without scripting. Granted at some point users will create some pretty spectacular scenarios with scripting, but it shouldn't be a requirement for a good and enjoyable mission. Looking at ARMA, yes heavily scripted missions like Domination or Patrol Ops are incredibly fun and re-playable, but I've had just as much fun in the smaller simple missions that lack extensive scripting.

[GeorgeLKMT]

On the topic of offline campaigns once again: I'm kinda sad that people don't make any content for SU-25T.

I know, it's not Hog fidelity and whatever, but so many people says how that plane is fun to fly, has AFM, looks nice and is versatile, yet everything you see is for Hog, Hog, Hog, Hog, Hog or Hog. Sometimes BS. Yeah, I get it, 6DOF amazing piece of simulation versus 3DOF freeware simple russian flying brick, but still... I have played campaign, every single mission I found in there, Operation Сyclone by Zelog but I still wish there were more.

Multiplayer is currently no-go for me, create fast mission is rather simple and I don't currently have skills to develop my own missions although I want to. I was developing content for games since I discovered map editor in Warcraft 2 and I can't resist the power of DCS editor. But on the other hand it's more fun to fly missions where you don't know exactly what's gonna happen.

 

Uff, maybe TL;DR but in a nutshell: I pray for more Frogfoot campaings and missions! :joystick:

[Speed]

On the topic of offline campaigns once again: I'm kinda sad that people don't make any content for SU-25T.

 

FC3 includes in new single player mission for it, at least.

[GeorgeLKMT]

FC3 includes in new single player mission for it, at least.

 

You mean that SEAD with Flanker's escort over the Caucasus? That is great one for sure :thumbup:

[Frogisis]

I think mission designers are waiting for ED to finish the job. with constant updates, mission designers will have a hard time updating their own missions. The key word here being 'DCS World Gold', with all modules to their fullest.

 

Totally this.

 

I also want more single player campaigns, since I enjoy SP for being kind of meditative & relaxing, and completely independent of anyone else's schedule, plus I miss new Ace Combat games.

 

But right now DCS is going through a lot of big transitions (and we don't even know what the next jet is or what all can be done exactly with Combined Arms once it's finished) so beyond just things getting broken or incompatible, campaign authors wouldn't even be sure what full set of tools they'd be able to use.

[MegOhm_SD]

I'm not sure of the overall point you are trying to make here except the very obvious caution you display in your text regarding your own 'super campaign' series, which to be frank, is certainly not the first, nor will it be the biggest. To say that the ME has not been utilised fully so far in missions that are currently available is absolute drivel. I've been making missions for years, and MP campaigns are my signature. Multiple transitions, unsure endings and certainly incorporated with pathway possibilities.

 

As for ME stability, well, welcome to the frustration of intelligent editors. ED has to move with the times for sure on each patch release, but I personally haven't seen any instability of mismatchs since 1.1.0.9.

 

'T'

 

Tyger, Are your MP Campaigns available for DL? I would be interested in running them with my Squadmates.

[Malakie]

hello all,

 

I have had DCS BS since the beginning as well as the A-10c. Back in the "old days" of BS there were many new offline missions and campaigns released with the pinnacle 3rd party offline being the VERGEEV Group Campaign. Since release of DCS World and the module integration, we seem to have lost not only these old campaigns, but it seems that campaign designers are no longer focused on producing new entries in World. Is there a reason for the lack of offline Campaign opportunities?

 

I jump into DCS every once in a while to keep sharp on cockpit operation and flight stick button memory, but its only the few packaged missions and few replayed included campaigns. Immersive offline campaigns were the real draw in the old days, and I miss checking in here on the forum to find new submissions.

 

Thus, has the glory days of offline campaign design ended with release of DCS World, or are the designers simply holding out for something?? Or, am I looking in the wrong place for offline campaign ops for World??

 

~S~

wind

 

 

 

I can tell you part of the problem... I have had DCS A-10 for a while now.. And since I am an Apache and/or Cobra man, I had heard about Blackshark but was not really interested in it at the time..

 

However I had NO IDEA about the full DCS system!! I just found all these modules and the integration of the DCS world by accident!! I have and do play every kind of combat simulation you can imagine. From Falcon 4.0 Allied Force, Steel Beasts, Wargame European Escalation, Comanche Hokum and many others.. Yet I did not know about this..

 

And that is why there is little in terms of scenarios and campaigns... We need to get out there and let the world know because once I saw the linking system and what has so far been released, I was excited AND amazed at the depth and detail...

 

The word needs to get out there because there are a lot of gamers who may not even know DCS is up and running with the modules..