476th vFG, 76th vFS "Battle Book"

[Ich666]

At some point I may pick up a set of used rudder pedals. Anything over $60 is too much right now.

 

You could try and see if you can get some racing wheel pedals. Works pretty good.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I'll post a track tomorrow. Notice where your DTOF line is, well below your target. If you want to keep your DTOF close to inputted value keep that tic mark on the target. Also your minimum escape altitude staple is in the dirt.

 

That tick mark is the Desired Release Cue - DRC. It is set with DTOF. The staple is the MRS - Minimum Range Staple, which is MIN ALT set. Both set at DSMS and if one is set to 0, it will not appear on the HUD CCIP mode. In a planned delivery, the DRC is used to set aim point ( and correct it for that matter) and the MRS should be what is on target, that is IF I understand correctly after 2 years with the Hog.

[Eddie]

....that is IF I understand correctly after 2 years with the Hog.

 

You don't, wess24m was absolutely correct.

 

You should place the DRC on the target/DMPI when you roll out on track heading and allow the pipper to track up to the DMPI/DRC.

 

Additionally, the DRC was not be present if DTOF is not set in the DSMS profile. However the MRC is ALWAYS present, furthermore in combat you do not set a min alt for a weapon profile that parameter is only used during training.

[Nealius]

So I am supposed to put the DRC on the target? If I do that my dive will be shallower than the 30* as per the diagram.

 

post your mission here cuz I want to try it.

 

Nothing special about it, just put an outpost on the abandoned airfield and fly it ramp-to-ramp. No fancy triggers or waypoints or anything.

[wess24m]

So I am supposed to put the DRC on the target? If I do that my dive will be shallower than the 30* as per the diagram.

 

 

 

Nothing special about it, just put an outpost on the abandoned airfield and fly it ramp-to-ramp. No fancy triggers or waypoints or anything.

 

"Desired Release Cue (DRC). The DRC is a small line on the PBIL and represents the

desired time of fall as entered in the DSMS weapon profile (DES TOF). The DRC serves as a

guide in setting up proper aim off distance for the subsequent delivery. The aircraft should

be maneuvered to place the DRC on the target. If the DRC is on the target, and a constant

bank angle and load factor are maintained, the DRC will move down the PBIL at the same

rate as the actual target, and the CCIP will be coincident with the target just as the

weapon time of fall matches the menu entry.

 

An X is displayed over the DRC when current parameters indicate the CCIP will not appear

on the HUD prior to desired time of fall.

 

The DRC may be below the MRS during instances when the aircraft flight parameters vary

widely from the desired weapons event. This will most likely occur when the dive angle is

much greater than the planned event.

For ripple deliveries, the DRC indicates the release point, so that the middle bomb of a stick

falls at the point of desired impact. If an even number of bombs is selected, the center

bombs will bracket the target."

 

I'm not one of those people that are just going to tell you to "go read the f-ing manual" but when trying to use a certain system that your asking about, it would behoove you to crack the manual. I think you guys are trying too hard to maintain all the correct parameters, just relax, setup some targets and try to do a straight on run on some targets without introducing the abrupt turn onto target. Baby steps, learn both how to maintain the correct CCIP run then incorporate the turn in to the mix.

Edited April 14, 2013 by wess24m

[Nealius]

I am honestly tired of hearing "read the manual" after I have already read it three or four "f-ing" times. The Z-diagrams and the information in the manual are not tied together at all so it is hard to gather the full picture using just those two documents. I don't recall the in-game tutorial mentioning anything about the DRC the last three times I flew it either :music_whistling:

[Eddie]

So I am supposed to put the DRC on the target? If I do that my dive will be shallower than the 30* as per the diagram.

 

Because, based on your screenshot, your positioning and roll out were incorrect for a 30DB. It looks as thought you were setup for a 20 degree dive, not a 30.

 

Your FPM should not point at the target on roll out, if it does you've messed up the roll in and/or are using incorrect parameters.

[Eddie]

II don't recall the in-game tutorial mentioning anything about the DRC the last three times I flew it either :music_whistling:

 

And that's because the in game tutorials and DCS manual are "high school level", this stuff is "university degree level" and beyond.

[wess24m]

And that's because the in game tutorials and DCS manual are "high school level", this stuff is "university degree level" and beyond.

 

Agreed.

[Eddie]

Although, to be honest, it's still easy. In fact doing things "the right way" is actually easier (and far more effective) than any other method that people may perceive as simpler.

 

It just takes a bit of time and effort to learn, that's all. There are no shortcuts, or quick fixes.

[wess24m]

I am honestly tired of hearing "read the manual" after I have already read it three or four "f-ing" times. The Z-diagrams and the information in the manual are not tied together at all so it is hard to gather the full picture using just those two documents. I don't recall the in-game tutorial mentioning anything about the DRC the last three times I flew it either :music_whistling:

 

You ask a question about something covered in the manual, then say you've read the manual several times and are tired of being where to find the answers. If you want to learn you need to take a little bit of responsibility to be self motivated and find the answers and not have to be spoon fed. I'm trying to help you guys, but when I read this kind of response it makes me want to take the stance of most the people here and tell you to figure it out on your own. That quote was directly out of the manual you say you've read. It was also a direct answer to your question, from the manual.

 

I'll be posting a video in a minute showing you guys that I flew the trk file and made 3 successful run's on the target, from varying altitudes and speeds all while maintaining a valid ballistic solution cue (no x through the retical). As I said get to where you can do a straight on dive bomb while not burying your escape staple in the ground, then add complications (the turn in) to the equation.

Edited April 14, 2013 by wess24m

[Nealius]

Because, based on your screenshot, your positioning and roll out were incorrect for a 30DB. It looks as thought you were setup for a 20 degree dive, not a 30.

 

Your FPM should not point at the target on roll out, if it does you've messed up the roll in and/or are using incorrect parameters.

 

According to the canopy cues you posted, for a 30* dive the target should be level with the second rivet of the canopy. This is exactly what I did when I rolled in on that target and took the screenshot. When I attempted using the markpoint as a yardstick and tried to visually acquire the target at the BASE/PUP of 1.2nm the target was below my canopy, indicating a greater than 45* dive according to the canopy cues. Also, my FPM/TVV was never on the target. It was on the -30* line.

 

 

And that's because the in game tutorials and DCS manual are "high school level", this stuff is "university degree level" and beyond.

 

And yet people are frequently told to consult the "high school level" material when asking about the "university degree level" stuff :pilotfly: It feels like a lot of the instruction with these high-fidelity sims is an afterthought and only the people who do it in real life have the information to go beyond what's in the basic manual.

 

And just for the record, I'm not trying to be spoon fed. I have read the manual many times, some of it just doesn't stick. When supplemental manuals are added without mentioning how they play into the original, it gets confusing and clarification is needed. But apparently clarification is equivalent to "spoon feeding."

Edited April 14, 2013 by Nealius

[Eddie]

According to the canopy cues you posted, for a 30* dive the target should be level with the second rivet of the canopy. This is exactly what I did when I rolled in on that target and took the screenshot. When I attempted using the markpoint as a yardstick and tried to visually acquire the target at the BASE/PUP of 1.2nm the target was below my canopy, indicating a greater than 45* dive according to the canopy cues. Also, my FPM/TVV was never on the target. It was on the -30* line.

 

Sounds like either your base alt or turn in are off then. But I'd need to see a tacview acmi/track/video to be sure.

 

And yet people are frequently told to consult the "high school level" material when asking about the "university degree level" stuff :pilotfly: It feels like a lot of the instruction with these high-fidelity sims is an afterthought and only the people who do it in real life have the information to go beyond what's in the basic manual.

 

All the advanced stuff builds upon the basics, you can't master the advanced stuff without first mastering the basics. It's true that the DCS manual are totally lacking in the tactics etc. I like to describe the DCS manuals and training material by saying they contain much of the science, but none of the art of aerial combat.

 

That's why I, and many others, try our best to provide information such as that in the first post of this very thread. But it must be said, that when I teach this stuff in the 476th there are around 6-8 hours of theory lessons and up to 40 hours of in flight instruction involved. Learning it on your own without that support is going to take a lot of work, practice, and asking of questions.

 

I have no issue answering questions on things like this, as long as people actually pay attention to the answers. And at least make the effort to study and learn for themselves.

[Nealius]

I should have collected and organized my thoughts before coming off as trying to be "spoon fed." I should have been less defensive about it as well.

 

The DCS manual says that placing the DRC on the target allows for the proper "aim off distance," but in another section it says that it is used to release the bomb according to a set TOF. I cannot find any information explaining "aim off distance" or how the FMP/TVV is placed during a CCIP bombing run. When going for a 30* dive I would think the FPM/TVV would be placed on the -30* line, as the FPM/TVV is a representation of where you are flying. It's gaps of information like this that are frustrating me.

[Eddie]

Take a look at the demo vids on the youtube channel in my sig.

 

AOD is the distance along the ground between the target and the point where you place your FPM.

 

Yes you place your FPM on the 30 degree line for a 30 degree dive, but that should not correspond with the target. For an 82 30DB2, for example, your FPM (on the 30 degree line) should be over a point 0.2 NM beyond your target. You then hold the FPM in this position and allow the pipper to track up to the target.

 

 

If you have your base alt and turn in right, the DRC should line up with the target as well. The DRC is your crosscheck for planned release altitude, if your pipper is going to pass throughout the DRC before it reaches the target, then you will also be below the planned release alt before the pipper reaches the target as well.

 

If you don't get your base altitude correct, you won't get the other stuff correct either as everything else hinges on it.

 

The important thing to note is that ALL the altitudes given in the Battle Book are AGL, not MSL. So remember to take target elevation into account.

[Nealius]

So in actuality lining up the DRC on the target is more important than getting the FPM on the proper dive angle? It looks like the correct dive angle is a side-effect of placing the DRC on the target when all other parameters are met. When I read "30* dive" I make achieving that 30* angle priority over all other parameters, which is one thing that is probably hurting me.

[wess24m]

Here's my attempt at Bills track. I delivered from the target altitude first then 2 more passes at different altitude and positions (as you would in the wild). Notice that my solution is valid through the entire run in and I only briefly have an invalid X AFTER the bombs were off on the first pass. I was less concerned about speed and keeping things exactly right as far as the given values, and concentrated at getting the bombs on target and not putting my aircraft at risk by dropping below the safe altitude or needlessly exposing myself to the enemy.

 

While these guides are great, they aren't the end all be all. Be concerned with you and your aircraft's safety as well as your team, try to get bombs on target but (as Eddie said previously) don't be afraid to abort if things aren't looking right, aborting is much better then pushing a bad situation.

 

 

Sorry for the split screen, I have exported MFCD's and I don't normally make videos.

 

 

 

 

[Eddie]

So in actuality lining up the DRC on the target is more important than getting the FPM on the proper dive angle? It looks like the correct dive angle is a side-effect of placing the DRC on the target when all other parameters are met. When I read "30* dive" I make achieving that 30* angle priority over all other parameters, which is one thing that is probably hurting me.

 

I'm reluctant to say yes, because (as ever) it's a bit more complicated than that. Each piece is important and you should aim to match all parameters. But that said, yes releasing at the proper altitude (or more accurately, before abort altitude) is more important than the dive angle.

 

If your dive angle is a degree or two out, that's fine. But if its significantly out, then you should abort the attack and try again if safe to do so, as your unlikely to be able to meet release parameters and delivery the weapon(s) accurately.

 

P.S. Don't get too hung up on the IFFCC abort cues, they kick in too early at the moment, I'm not entirely sure why. It's one of those bugs that has long been on my list to investigate, but as few people have noticed it (in fact nobody has noticed it's not right, at least not around here) it's near the bottom of my list, and it's a long list.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Eddie

[wess24m]

I'm reluctant to say yes, because (as ever) it's a bit more complicated than that. Each piece is important and you should aim to match all parameters. But that said, yes releasing at the proper altitude (or more accurately, before abort altitude) is more important than the dive angle.

 

If your dive angle is a degree or two out, that's fine. But if its significantly out, then you should abort the attack and try again if safe to do so, as your unlikely to be able to meet release parameters and delivery the weapon(s) accurately.

 

P.S. Don't get too hung up on the IFFCC abort cues, they kick in too early at the moment, I'm not entirely sure why. It's one of those bugs that has long been on my list to investigate, but as few people have noticed it (in fact nobody has noticed it's not right, at least not around here) it's near the bottom of my list, and it's a long list.

 

I don't think it's so far off as to be disregarded. The times I've seen it give the invalid release cue it's working as intended. For others that don't know, the altitude staple is calculated upon the aircraft continuing on the same flight path as indicated at that specific instance. So if you don't alter your flight path (when its showing your staple below your target) you will exceed the minimum safe altitude input into the IFFCC. I use it and as long as you're flying a correct delivery path then you won't get an invalid release cue.

[Nealius]

About target elevation, what's the best way to get that if you don't have a targeting pod or JTAC? I imagine an overfly markpoint would work but seems a bit risky in a combat situation.

[wess24m]

About target elevation, what's the best way to get that if you don't have a targeting pod or JTAC? I imagine an overfly markpoint would work but seems a bit risky in a combat situation.

 

 

You could always get as close to the location on your TAD map as you can (IE the target was by a road intersection) and place a mark point. The mark point would then use known Terrain elevation and incorporate that into the HOT on your bombing solution. If your off by a couple feet it's not going to destroy your solution. That and the limited blast damage modeled will help.

[WildBillKelsoe]

@ Nealius, normally you set the SPI to a waypoint and set the elevation using DATA->SEL-> to DTS. In my mission, the target is 33 feet AGL, and according to the playbook, 9300 is the base altitude. So, add 33 to 9300 to make your correction. You never use the altitude from radar, only the barometric altitude provided by the altimeter.

 

@ wess, you did a great job in my mission, but just one adjustment I want you to make to your technique; the PBIL/PBRL should be within the ladder. In your attempt, you were always sideways to the ladder. If you see Eddie's vids, he's always having the PBRL inside the ladder. One technique to do so, would be to roll out and use rudder to center the ladder. If you don't have rudder, it will be a problem because CCIP corrects for minor release errors, but needs constant load factor, bank angle and pitch.

 

I have attached more or less successful, by the book attempts to this reply. For the 45 degree plan, I roll in from 0.8 nm perpendicular to roll out point, level off using a small rudder kick to put PBIL centered on ladder.

 

With that said, I also agree the default zoom out is the best level to see your surroundings and aspects, and not the Num Enter zoom.

 

Also note that I use GUN PAC switch to hush the excessive G audio cue. Because my hand is small, I tend to accidentally discharge the gun when trimming.

 

Let me know what you think.

[Nealius]

You could always get as close to the location on your TAD map as you can (IE the target was by a road intersection) and place a mark point. The mark point would then use known Terrain elevation and incorporate that into the HOT on your bombing solution. If your off by a couple feet it's not going to destroy your solution. That and the limited blast damage modeled will help.

 

Stupid me decided to learn the TAD last. Back to the manual :joystick:

 

 

@ Nealius, normally you set the SPI to a waypoint and set the elevation using DATA->SEL-> to DTS. In my mission, the target is 33 feet AGL, and according to the playbook, 9300 is the base altitude. So, add 33 to 9300 to make your correction. You never use the altitude from radar, only the barometric altitude provided by the altimeter.

 

Is it actually 33'? I thought the mission planner was still showing things in metric.

[wess24m]

@ Nealius, normally you set the SPI to a waypoint and set the elevation using DATA->SEL-> to DTS. In my mission, the target is 33 feet AGL, and according to the playbook, 9300 is the base altitude. So, add 33 to 9300 to make your correction. You never use the altitude from radar, only the barometric altitude provided by the altimeter.

 

@ wess, you did a great job in my mission, but just one adjustment I want you to make to your technique; the PBIL/PBRL should be within the ladder. In your attempt, you were always sideways to the ladder. If you see Eddie's vids, he's always having the PBRL inside the ladder. One technique to do so, would be to roll out and use rudder to center the ladder. If you don't have rudder, it will be a problem because CCIP corrects for minor release errors, but needs constant load factor, bank angle and pitch.

 

I have attached more or less successful, by the book attempts to this reply. For the 45 degree plan, I roll in from 0.8 nm perpendicular to roll out point, level off using a small rudder kick to put PBIL centered on ladder.

 

With that said, I also agree the default zoom out is the best level to see your surroundings and aspects, and not the Num Enter zoom.

 

Also note that I use GUN PAC switch to hush the excessive G audio cue. Because my hand is small, I tend to accidentally discharge the gun when trimming.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

I do have a rudder but its bad form to use it for lateral correction for gun runs and bombing. When you crab the aircraft not only does it effect your pitot tube flow which in turn effects your airspeed reading (if they ever implement that real world condition) which in turn would effect your ballistic computer (because of the erroneous airspeed reading), it also doesn't effect the path of the aircraft to a substantial degree, you're just going through at the air sideway on the same flight path, also it doesn't/didn't effect your accuracy. If you notice my first run was spot on where I was aiming for, the 2nd and 3rd runs were early and off. The 2nd was because I released too early, the 3rd was because my alignment was off. I was showing mainly that you can run in close to parameters and still get both, bombs on target and a valid solution cue.

 

Like I say, my methods are effective on getting bombs on target and maintaining safely of the aircraft. I realize this is a game but I treat it the same as when I'm flying IRL. Getting shot down is the ultimate immersion killer for me so I play with making it home in mind, you can both fly aggressively,safely and still be effective.

[wess24m]

Stupid me decided to learn the TAD last. Back to the manual :joystick:

 

 

 

 

Is it actually 33'? I thought the mission planner was still showing things in metric.

 

Again, take small things like that with a grain of salt. 33 feet isn't going to make or break your run in, you can also make corrections while running in to correct any base altitude failed setup. As you can see in my video all my runs hit targets despite being exactly at this speed or that altitude.

 

The TAD (really all the aircrafts systems) only help you be more effective. I've been flying this sim since the day it came out, matter of fact I took a week off of work to get started. Watch lots of YouTube videos, Eddis are good and will establish good habits right from the start. Just relax and spend some time at the training range, try different things, see what works so what doesn't. Have fun.