TWS for MiG29s

[GGTharos]

The F-16's tend to out-turn F-15's handily, they are harder to see, they can point the nose better etc. At high altitude the F-15 has advantages, but dogfights tend to mature to low and slow, and there the F-16 tends to do a lot better.

[Sov13t]

The F-16's dish may be even smaller, but so is that bird's RCS, especially since they use RCS reduction measures on it.

 

While on this subject, is this something that has been brought up with the development of MiG-21Bis? One of the advantages of that bird is it's incredible RCS... is it going to be somehow modeled in the game? If I remember it's sigma is like 3 m^2 - no stealth but still perhaps even better than F-16 (non-stealthified)...

[Exorcet]

While on this subject, is this something that has been brought up with the development of MiG-21Bis? One of the advantages of that bird is it's incredible RCS... is it going to be somehow modeled in the game? If I remember it's sigma is like 3 m^2 - no stealth but still perhaps even better than F-16 (non-stealthified)...

Really? I always thought the nose cone and cylinder fuselage were a disaster. Although I suppose from dead on, there isn't much area.

 

Is that RCS with weapons, or clean?

[ФрогФут]

The F-16's tend to out-turn F-15's handily, they are harder to see, they can point the nose better etc. At high altitude the F-15 has advantages, but dogfights tend to mature to low and slow, and there the F-16 tends to do a lot better.

I wouldn't say that by the plots of turn performance, i've seen, but ok. I'll believe you.:)

Really? I always thought the nose cone and cylinder fuselage were a disaster. Although I suppose from dead on, there isn't much area.

Yep. Axial intake works well for RCS reduction. No compressor visible at all. And also it is VERY small bird.

Edited January 9, 2013 by ФрогФут

[Cali]

AFAIK, F-16 pilots hate BVR vs. F-15's as much as F-15 pilots hate BFM with F-16's. The F-16's dish may be even smaller, but so is that bird's RCS, especially since they use RCS reduction measures on it.

 

I'm not talking brand spanking new variants vs old ones, but contemporary ones.

 

The F-16's tend to out-turn F-15's handily, they are harder to see, they can point the nose better etc. At high altitude the F-15 has advantages, but dogfights tend to mature to low and slow, and there the F-16 tends to do a lot better.

 

You are right on both things. I saw a real life tacview of a F-16 vs F-15 back in 2010 when I was TDY in Georgia. The F-15's could pick them off from a distance, but they weren't allowed to. The 15's came up from Florida and they meet out over the ocean. They don't call the 16 the viper for no reason.

[Exorcet]

Yep. Axial intake works well for RCS reduction. No compressor visible at all.

Very true, I can't believe I missed something so obvious.

[Boberro]

And, the only reason is that Russia can defend itself.

 

Rly? How so :)

[danilop]

How so :)

 

 

The current Russian nuclear stockpile is estimated to include about 5,000 deployed strategic weapons, about 3,500 operational tactical nuclear weapons, and more than 11,000 stockpiled strategic and tactical warheads, for a total arsenal of about 19,500 nuclear warheads

 

Like so :)

[Boberro]

If we take nuclear stockpile into matter we could even say DPRK would defend itself.

 

Without it we know DPRK would lose very fast. ;]

[Sov13t]

Rly? How so :)

 

Quit trolling. Obviously a derailment and a rather stupid discussion. Ignore and move on.

[falcon_120]

Quit trolling. Obviously a derailment and a rather stupid discussion. Ignore and move on.

 

I think he was being ironic.

[GGTharos]

It's really nothing incredible, Sov13t. To halve detection range, you need to reduce the RCS 16 times. The MiG-21 really isn't 'quite there', especially against radars that are sniffing out 0.2 or 0.1m^2 cruise missiles in ground clutter.

 

While on this subject, is this something that has been brought up with the development of MiG-21Bis? One of the advantages of that bird is it's incredible RCS... is it going to be somehow modeled in the game? If I remember it's sigma is like 3 m^2 - no stealth but still perhaps even better than F-16 (non-stealthified)...

[Alfa]

AFAIK, F-16 pilots hate BVR vs. F-15's as much as F-15 pilots hate BFM with F-16's. The F-16's dish may be even smaller, but so is that bird's RCS, especially since they use RCS reduction measures on it.

 

I'm not talking brand spanking new variants vs old ones, but contemporary ones.

 

I am not saying that more powerful radars is void and nil due to the lower RCS of the opponents - just that the latter is something to take into consideration as well :)

 

The F-16's tend to out-turn F-15's handily, they are harder to see, they can point the nose better etc. At high altitude the F-15 has advantages, but dogfights tend to mature to low and slow, and there the F-16 tends to do a lot better.

 

.....and where the Hornet tends to beat the crap out of both :D

[GGTharos]

I think the plots don't tell you everything ... I thought like you do, and then RL eagle pilots told me otherwise :)

 

I wouldn't say that by the plots of turn performance, i've seen, but ok. I'll believe you.:)

[GGTharos]

I am not saying that more powerful radars is void and nil due to the lower RCS of the opponents - just that the latter is something to take into consideration as well :)

 

I agree it is a factor, but again, to halve detection range you need to reduce RCS by a factor of 16. A reduction of 8 gets you a detection range reduction to 3/4 ... less than 8 (and I believe the MiG-21 isn't doing any better than this at all compared to a lot of modern fighters) and the range reduction just might not be terribly significant to a fighter that'll detect another fighter at 100km normaly for example.

 

 

.....and where the Hornet tends to beat the crap out of both :D

 

Yep :)

[Sov13t]

Detection is one thing, locking is another, firing another. It all accumulates.

[Pilotasso]

I agree it is a factor, but again, to halve detection range you need to reduce RCS by a factor of 16. A reduction of 8 gets you a detection range reduction to 3/4 ... less than 8 (and I believe the MiG-21 isn't doing any better than this at all compared to a lot of modern fighters) and the range reduction just might not be terribly significant to a fighter that'll detect another fighter at 100km normaly for example.

 

 

 

 

Yep :)

 

Vipers go vertical on the hornets, 18's also bleed off energy faster, its not a decided contest by any means.

 

The toughest oponents our pilots here have ever faced were rafales (much to the fault of green Typhoon pilots not exploiting their machines to their fullest).

[GGTharos]

That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that in all likelyhood the 21 will get detected first and shot at first.

 

Detection is one thing, locking is another, firing another. It all accumulates.

[ФрогФут]

That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that in all likelyhood the 21 will get detected first and shot at first.

No, it won't.:)) MiG-21UPG, India has, actually rocks in BVR.

[GGTharos]

When up against Pakistani F-16's with no BVR capability, sure. :)

[ФрогФут]

When up against Pakistani F-16's with no BVR capability, sure. :)

No, not those. I wouldn't call that "rocks", if it were kicking the baby in the nuts.

[Exorcet]

No, not those. I wouldn't call that "rocks", if it were kicking the baby in the nuts.

 

Obviously, the answer is make DCS Falcon and DCS Bison faster so we can all find out.

[104th_Cobra]

Make a DCS MiG-29, and even a DCS Hornet, and we will be around BFM for months. :)

[Darkwolf]

And when we'll get all those, everyone will complain about aircraft not being properly balanced, such it's the case with missiles nowadays :) :) :)

[Pyroflash]

And when we'll get all those, everyone will complain about aircraft not being properly balanced, such it's the case with missiles nowadays :) :) :)

 

Waaaahh.. The Hornet pulls too much alpha and shoots AIM-9X's at me, it's so cheap! :D