Su-27 drivers, give me a hand!

[Shein]

Okay so all you rooskis out there... I'm trying to learn to BVR fight with the su-27. Usually what happens is this: I'm able to force my opponent (15 charlie) defensive with a 27ER, dodge his first AMRAAM, get off a second ER that he also manages to evade 90% of the time, and then by the time that happens I'm about 10 miles away, too far for an SRM shot, but too close for me to figure out how to work the russian radar fast enough to get another shot off. He recovers, fires another 120, and its game over at that range.

So I have a few questions...

1. I think the reason I can't find him with radar that close is the altitude difference... I know how the russian radar works, and I understand how to control it but I don't know the tactics to controlling it... any good strategies to use with it? how do you do it?

2. what do you do if an amraam is fired at you 10 miles away? (besides eject :cry:)

3. when I fire a second 27ER, it appears that the first one loses tracking... can I only guide 1 missile at a time? I know they're not fire and forget, but if its the same target can't they both be guided?

4. at about 10 miles away, is there a different HUD mode you use to acquire targets? HMD and vertical scan both didn't pick him up, but is there a quicker way then trying to work it in BVR mode?

 

ANY input at all is appreciated, I'm almost completely new to the flanker.

Спасибо!:pilotfly:

[Cali]

Within 10 miles select helmet mode, bring up an 27ET fire that or fire another ER. Within 10 miles you can use bore or longitude mode and pick him up quickly that way. If you can see him with your eye, then bore or long should be able to pick him up also.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Cali

[GGTharos]

The Russian HuD ACQ modes seem to be limted to 10km (about 6nm).

[Exorcet]

Well I don't specialize in the Su-27, but you made no mention of ET's. Use them. My goal with the Flanker is usually to get into ET range, the ER's are just to make the other guy go defensive.

 

This is 1v1 only of course, where the Flanker is at a big disadvantage anyway. The best way to use the plane is in a group.

[SFAL]

The firs and most inportant rule... dont loose lock...

 

it is possible to keep the enemy fighter +/- 30 at all times.. apart when u doge the missiles...

 

have the radar cone (scan distance) down to 5.. it will flood the space front of u and if the enemy isnt jamming t then TWS mode is great for it......

 

also if you turn right beam right with the radar.... set the range scale to 10or 25... i had to find this out the hars way... only looking at track i noticed the the contact was there... but at the very bottom and in heat of dog fight i missed it...

 

bore is usefull but the best bet is EOS... the AI and human pilot wont detect you but at that distance they stand out like a sour thumb....give em a ET or T or form up on their 6 and lock them.... watch as they try to out manuver u... then its up to you how u finish them off.

 

real life russian tactic is to fire one IR and one Radar guided weapon... the target has a lower chance eveding and or defeating your missiles

[Essah]

F-15C is way superior to the Su-27S having no ARH missile (R-77) due to its Active Aim-120 and higher thrust. it's doable though.

[FLANKERATOR]

Hi Shein,

 

You have to use your R-27ER range slight advantage but most of all you will need to hold lock at all costs, here are most critical points to keep in mind :

 

- Fire with an altitude advantage (not more than 2000m) couple of 3 to 5 sec spaced ER's (90% and 75-80% Rmax then engage an immediate diving F-pole, make sure to quickly get below your opponent's altitude by at least 1000 to 1500m, watch his altitude as he will most like try to notch your missiles and stay below him.

 

- Pay attention to a small symbol on the left side of the HUD, it looks like an inverted N which indicates that the STT lock is valid which also means that your missiles are still heading to the target. If that symbol disappears , that means that your missiles lost lock even though the MFD could show that your still have him locked ! sometimes EOS takes tracking over and a T appears instead of the inverted N, that also means that ER's are gone.

 

- Now not only you will need to stay below him, but also to switch to the right Pulse Radar Frequency according to his aspect. Start with HI mode when head on, then as he goes notching, switch to ILV than as he starts extending (Angle off > to 90 deg), engage the MED mode. If you don't switch to the right PRF you will loose lock.

 

- Last but not least, how to keep that small N displayed while defending against incoming actives, well good news is that if you force him to go defensive early enough by keeping a valid radar lock you will most likely face low energy missiles. Zigzagging gently from side to side while notching and staying inside your own radar steering limits helps bleeding missiles energy off a lot. Stay patient and active and don't give up. ER's are are very effective when you keep lock all the way to the target and they don't give any closure clue on the RWR for a last ditch maneuver which is not the case of the AMRAAM and this is something you should use to defend at close range.

[Shein]

wow... thank you all for the replies! I know I'm at a disadvantage but that's what makes it interesting to me! Though I won't lie I can't wait for dcs su27sm! i downed my first 15 charlie last night... any more tactics and info welcome

[Frostie]

So I have a few questions...

1. I think the reason I can't find him with radar that close is the altitude difference... I know how the russian radar works, and I understand how to control it but I don't know the tactics to controlling it... any good strategies to use with it? how do you do it?

When you get within 40km range switch the radar PRF mode to ABT(ILV) (symbology top left of the HUD, underneath speed), this is a combination of both ППС(HI) and ЗПС(MED), this will help you find/keep lock on hard maneuvering targets.

2. what do you do if an amraam is fired at you 10 miles away? (besides eject :cry:)

10nm is plenty of room to make some good choices, your decision hinges on whether you have a missile away, if you're over hills or mountains then get in them, if you're over flat land it's probably best to extend, a last ditch choice would be to out maneuver the missile or try and notch, if you think your missile is going to make a hit before his gets close then hold off until you see the dark trail of burning Eagle until finally making your move.

Making the right choice when to stick or twist is the part where you earn your stripes.

3. when I fire a second 27ER, it appears that the first one loses tracking... can I only guide 1 missile at a time? I know they're not fire and forget, but if its the same target can't they both be guided?

As long as you keep your lock you can fire 6 ER's one after the other (sometimes it takes that many:D) and they will all track that target dependent on bandit chaff and bandit aspect.

Also if you lose lock momentarily if you quickly relock the same target and you're lucky, the missile will reaquire the target.

What you can't do is fire on one target, switch to another and expect that missile to switch targets.

4. at about 10 miles away, is there a different HUD mode you use to acquire targets? HMD and vertical scan both didn't pick him up, but is there a quicker way then trying to work it in BVR mode?

10nm away is Close combat modes for F-15's, if you're at 10nm then radar is the best choice here if your being painted, if you think he's blind on you and you have stealth like a ninja then switch to EOS.

 

Unfortunately us hard done to Russki's get a meagre 5-6nm for close combat modes, vertical scan is an excellent choice if you expect that the enemy is higher than you, though the ultimate tool at your disposal is Helmet mode where the lock range is exclusively dependent on heat source strength, while currently you can see a Flanker at 10nm with ease, spotting an F-15 at that range is not so easy but when you seee them the ability to look at them, lock them and fire an ET without them knowing is wry smile time.

 

The most effective tool when it gets low and nasty is the EOS, though currently in FC3 it has had some serious ball choppage at close range, in FC2 if used correctly anything within 10km +/-2000m was spotted with ease.

 

Just remember when you're fighting F-15's you need to get low as soon as you've launched unless you're expecting a longer engagement, this is because you want to bleed any actives coming your way, you also want to be over hilly terrain because over flat terrain you have nowhere to hide if things get tricky and with no ARH to defend yourself while you run the faster F-15 will be on top of you in a heartbeat.

The reality with FC3 in its current state is that 1v1 against ARH missiles you have no advantages in BVR, and no escape it's either kill or be killed so you need to be aggressive, stealthy and cunning. Your best bet is in close, 73's and HMD rule this environment, anything BVR is F-15 territory, ET's are next to useless against anyone that sees them and ER's = a gauntlet against a faster ARH, currently FC3 is a really tough world for the Flanker pilot and to think a lot of guys used to struggle with FC2, that was heaven.

[Shein]

Thanks frostie! the 27 has captured my heart as my favorite fixed wing aircraft... I haven't moved to online play yet, its still very new to me, but I'm learning! maybe one day i'll join the 51st!

[Cali]

The Russian HuD ACQ modes seem to be limted to 10km (about 6nm).

 

Never knew that, but I haven't flown FC3 yet either, was it like that in FC2 also?

[RIPTIDE]

Hi Shein,

 

You have to use your R-27ER range slight advantage .

 

Last years news.

 

This years news (1.2.2) is the ER has no advantage except at ~20miles+ and/or high altitude ironically enough (purely because of the 120 broken lofting). IN fact the AIM-7M is a good match for the R-27ER now.

 

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/600721/Tacview-20130221-145645.txt.rar

 

A test with hacked on 120/7M/77 for demonstration purposes.

Edited February 22, 2013 by RIPTIDE

[RIPTIDE]

The Russian HuD ACQ modes seem to be limted to 10km (about 6nm).

For radar. For IRST it can be more (or less) depending on the target. :thumbup:

[Xerxes17]

Is it just me or does the AWACS datalink on the SU27 never work?

 

Edit: Just tested and it does in the editor at least. I guess there are errors in the multiplayer missions I've been playing..

Edited February 22, 2013 by Xerxes17

[RIPTIDE]

Is it just me or does the AWACS datalink on the SU27 never work?

 

Edit: Just tested and it does in the editor at least. I guess there are errors in the multiplayer missions I've been playing..

1.2.2 MP AWACS does not work for client Datalinks....

[Xerxes17]

That's no good. Set to be fixed with next patch?

 

I guess I'll have to finally learn the F15C now. Absolutely hate the imperial units used, having grown up in a Metric country, no intuition for it at all.

 

Thanks to the 104th for the awesome server btw!

[Crescendo]

- Now not only you will need to stay below him, but also to switch to the right Pulse Radar Frequency according to his aspect. Start with HI mode when head on, then as he goes notching, switch to ILV than as he starts extending (Angle off > to 90 deg), engage the MED mode. If you don't switch to the right PRF you will loose lock.

 

When you get within 40km range switch the radar PRF mode to ABT(ILV) (symbology top left of the HUD, underneath speed), this is a combination of both ППС(HI) and ЗПС(MED), this will help you find/keep lock on hard maneuvering targets.

 

I might be betraying my lack of knowledge about FC radar simulation, but surely if you have a target locked in STT mode setting the PRF will have no effect. How could it? The whole point of STT mode is keep track of one target as best as is possible. When in STT mode the FCR has all the information it needs to maintain the lock autonomously. In other words, the FCR knows exactly when the target's aspect and speed change and can thus make PRF adjustments accordingly (if adjusting the PRF is even needed in STT mode).

 

If this is the way the real STT mode works, I suppose there must be a very good reason for it, because it seems like a horrible idea from a pilot workload standpoint! It makes sense to have the pilot adjust PRF when locating targets, but when STT mode is engaged it should take care of the rest!

[Crescendo]

Zigzagging gently from side to side while notching and staying inside your own radar steering limits helps bleeding missiles energy off a lot.

 

I do have one quibble with the above quote (yes, it's easier to destroy than to create ;)).

 

If by "notching" you mean entering the dopper notch, it can't be done by staying within your radar gimbal limits. Judging by your advice I'm sure you already know this and simply got your jargon mixed-up, but for the benefit of others, an aircraft can only notch a hostile emitter by beaming the emission source in a look-down situation (you beam to enter the notch). In other words, to notch a threat is to fly perpendicular (90deg) to that threat at a lower altitude. The gimbal limit for a fighter radar is 60deg - that's 30deg short of perpendicular.

[GGTharos]

STT is automated, but the PRF that it will use depends on a number of things, including the radar settings it was entered from.

 

FC keeps things simple: You operate the PRF.

 

If this is the way the real STT mode works, I suppose there must be a very good reason for it, because it seems like a horrible idea from a pilot workload standpoint! It makes sense to have the pilot adjust PRF when locating targets, but when STT mode is engaged it should take care of the rest!

[104th_Maverick]

That's no good. Set to be fixed with next patch?

 

Yes sir!

 

And your welcome ;)

[FLANKERATOR]

Last years news.

 

This years news (1.2.2) is the ER has no advantage except at ~20miles+ and/or high altitude ironically enough (purely because of the 120 broken lofting). IN fact the AIM-7M is a good match for the R-27ER now.

 

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/600721/Tacview-20130221-145645.txt.rar

 

A test with hacked on 120/7M/77 for demonstration purposes.

 

True, though I believe the R-27ER will retain his range advantage over the AIM-120 once the missiles get updated in upcoming patches.

 

I might be betraying my lack of knowledge about FC radar simulation, but surely if you have a target locked in STT mode setting the PRF will have no effect. How could it? The whole point of STT mode is keep track of one target as best as is possible. When in STT mode the FCR has all the information it needs to maintain the lock autonomously. In other words, the FCR knows exactly when the target's aspect and speed change and can thus make PRF adjustments accordingly (if adjusting the PRF is even needed in STT mode).

 

If this is the way the real STT mode works, I suppose there must be a very good reason for it, because it seems like a horrible idea from a pilot workload standpoint! It makes sense to have the pilot adjust PRF when locating targets, but when STT mode is engaged it should take care of the rest!

 

I share your point of view. However, changing PRF in FC while on STT does affect lock stability.

 

I do have one quibble with the above quote (yes, it's easier to destroy than to create ;)).

 

If by "notching" you mean entering the dopper notch, it can't be done by staying within your radar gimbal limits. Judging by your advice I'm sure you already know this and simply got your jargon mixed-up, but for the benefit of others, an aircraft can only notch a hostile emitter by beaming the emission source in a look-down situation (you beam to enter the notch). In other words, to notch a threat is to fly perpendicular (90deg) to that threat at a lower altitude. The gimbals limit for a fighter radar is 60deg - that's 30deg short of perpendicular.

 

Yes my bad, I meant F-Pole as you can't notch while staying inside your radar gimbal limits. Thanks for clearing this up for others.

[RIPTIDE]

True, though I believe the R-27ER will retain his range advantage over the AIM-120 once the missiles get updated in upcoming patches.

Well, lets hope. Because as it stands, as someone who used to log ~35-40% flight hours with the '27, without the SARH 'Long Arm' there is very little use for that platform now unfortunately.

[Crescendo]

STT is automated, but the PRF that it will use depends on a number of things, including the radar settings it was entered from.

 

FC keeps things simple: You operate the PRF.

 

I share your point of view. However, changing PRF in FC while on STT does affect lock stability.

 

I didn't know that, I will have to keep this in mind when using the radar in the future.

[Shein]

Well, lets hope. Because as it stands, as someone who used to log ~35-40% flight hours with the '27, without the SARH 'Long Arm' there is very little use for that platform now unfortunately.

 

was thinking the same thing... the 29 can use the r77, the su27 only has the 27er. the su27 is probably the most effective wvr, but beyond that, it really doesnt have a niche... not until dcs su27sm

i still love it though ;)

[RIPTIDE]

was thinking the same thing... the 29 can use the r77, the su27 only has the 27er. the su27 is probably the most effective wvr, but beyond that, it really doesnt have a niche... not until dcs su27sm

i still love it though ;)

The R-77... ... MiG-29S+77 vs Su-27+ER? Maybe this is personal bias, but I would rather pic the 27. The R-77 kinematics is so poor that sometimes you could F-pole the target AND gimble defeat the R-77 without losing lock.... it's that bad. IN 1.2.2 of course.