Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[Ragnarok]

Full installation 1.2.7 is default. I bet it is a network problem.

[GGTharos]

Let me know if you experience it any more. If you do, try to reproduce in short track. I will need all clients and server track, and I will log it as a bug.

 

Also please make sure that neither of you has a corrupted game.

[Kenan]

AIM-120 rather poor K/D ratio

 

So many times I have launched my AIM-120s from 17 miles and under (using TWS whenever possible), kept the lock and waited for the missile to go pitbull (T) and so many times it missed and opponent managed to evade it and it was just wasted. Mind you, usually after it goes terminal/active, I have to break the lock right afterwards and turn away (as I'm being fired upon)..but still, all the missiles I launch are always supported untill they go active..and they still miss quite often.

 

Not sure what to think of it..Perhaps, equally skilled opponents cause this so called "stalemate" situation when we launch at each other and disengage in time..or is it simply the fact that we can pull those high G turns without much of a restrictions (under right speed conditions of course) which make us outturn the missile in its early stage of pursuit?

Edited May 19, 2014 by Kenan

[aaron886]

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone would contend that the ARH/SRH guidance simulation in DCS right now is highly accurate, even if the missiles' physical models are improving.

[GGTharos]

There are issues with the kinematics, and there are issues with the guidance. I could go deeper into it, but ... tired :P

 

So many times I have launched my AIM-120s from 17 miles and under (using TWS whenever possible), kept the lock and waited for the missile to go pitbull (T) and so many times it missed and opponent managed to evade it and it was just wasted. Mind you, usually after it goes terminal/active, I have to break the lock right afterwards and turn away (as I'm being fired upon)..but still, all the missiles I launch are always supported untill they go active..and they still miss quite often.

 

Not sure what to think of it..Perhaps, equally skilled opponents cause this so called "stalemate" situation when we launch at each other and disengage in time..or is it simply the fact that we can pull those high G turns without much of a restrictions (under right speed conditions of course) which make us outturn the missile in its early stage of pursuit?

[TAW_Blaze]

^

 

Simply put, all missiles suck.

 

At and below angels 20 if you fire outside 15nm it pretty much has 0 pk. Around 13-14 can be a good shot to make him defend but 90% of the times it won't kill him. Around 10 is where it gets more lethal, albeit even from 8nm they can be kinematically defeated at that altitude if flown well. That said if you fly head straight into the guy and wait to fire till 10nm you'll die nearly every time, but if you know a bit about BVR then you can make it work.

 

Higher up around angels 30 and 40 a 15nm shot is usually a kill. Definitely fire earlier here, if you wait no matter how you defend it'll probably catch you. Unless it became an ICBM immediately post launch, which happens quite often.

 

Obviously I made it REALLY simple, it's way more complex, but generally this is how fights work in DCS.

[*Rage*]

There are issues with the kinematics, and there are issues with the guidance. I could go deeper into it, but ... tired :P

 

+1

 

Launching a missile is not a kill switch Kenan!!!

 

Without a detailed analysis of exactly what happened in that engagement no one can say if that behavior is realistic or not. Under almost all circumstances you will not kill an experienced, situationally aware pilot at 17nm (unless he is very high and stays high).

[Falcon_S]

So many times I have launched my AIM-120s... ...and they still miss quite often.

 

All missiles are flabby, not only 120`s. Too quickly lose energy. In addition, for some strange reason does not follow target because they will not pull over 6G in the final stage.

[Sceptre]

I'm pretty sure the AIM-120C is supposed to have a slightly longer range than the B model, because a rocket that burns more fiercely but uses the fuel faster will go further than a rocket that does the opposite. However in DCS the B is just as long ranged as the C...

Don't know much about the Russian missiles, other than they look cool ;)

[karambiatos]

.

Don't know much about the Russian missiles, other than they look cool ;)

they are less accurate then a rock.

[howie87]

Yeah... Missiles in DCS are kind of a permanent work in progress. Much like DCS itself.

[RIPTIDE]

^

 

Simply put, all missiles suck.

 

At and below angels 20 if you fire outside 15nm it pretty much has 0 pk. Around 13-14 can be a good shot to make him defend but 90% of the times it won't kill him. Around 10 is where it gets more lethal, albeit even from 8nm they can be kinematically defeated at that altitude if flown well. That said if you fly head straight into the guy and wait to fire till 10nm you'll die nearly every time, but if you know a bit about BVR then you can make it work.

 

Higher up around angels 30 and 40 a 15nm shot is usually a kill. Definitely fire earlier here, if you wait no matter how you defend it'll probably catch you. Unless it became an ICBM immediately post launch, which happens quite often.

 

Obviously I made it REALLY simple, it's way more complex, but generally this is how fights work in DCS.

. For me flying in the Danger Zone (40+), for a neardefinite kill on a 25k bandit requires me to nose down, follow the missile shoot vector dot before the shot and push through about 900 knots and pop pop at <10 mile. I say 'pop, pop' because the MiG-29 is extraordinarily strong these days and demands a double tap, and for everything else, half the time 1 missile blows by. :P

 

Oh BTW, that requires the bandit to be very much a novice. lol

[TAW_Blaze]

. For me flying in the Danger Zone (40+), for a neardefinite kill on a 25k bandit requires me to nose down, follow the missile shoot vector dot before the shot and push through about 900 knots and pop pop at <10 mile. I say 'pop, pop' because the MiG-29 is extraordinarily strong these days and demands a double tap, and for everything else, half the time 1 missile blows by. :P

 

Oh BTW, that requires the bandit to be very much a novice. lol

 

Yes, but I assumed the opponenent at equal alt. If you fire at 10nm like that you'll be dead 9/10.

[Oberst Zeisig]

A tutorial, learning how to fly DCS FC3 in 1 minute. ;)

 

But a good post though! :thumbup:

 

 

^

 

Simply put, all missiles suck.

 

At and below angels 20 if you fire outside 15nm it pretty much has 0 pk. Around 13-14 can be a good shot to make him defend but 90% of the times it won't kill him. Around 10 is where it gets more lethal, albeit even from 8nm they can be kinematically defeated at that altitude if flown well. That said if you fly head straight into the guy and wait to fire till 10nm you'll die nearly every time, but if you know a bit about BVR then you can make it work.

 

Higher up around angels 30 and 40 a 15nm shot is usually a kill. Definitely fire earlier here, if you wait no matter how you defend it'll probably catch you. Unless it became an ICBM immediately post launch, which happens quite often.

 

Obviously I made it REALLY simple, it's way more complex, but generally this is how fights work in DCS.

[Kenan]

+1

 

Launching a missile is not a kill switch Kenan!!!

 

Without a detailed analysis of exactly what happened in that engagement no one can say if that behavior is realistic or not. Under almost all circumstances you will not kill an experienced, situationally aware pilot at 17nm (unless he is very high and stays high).

 

Yes, but it happens like 90% of the time. Looks like all of them are experienced pilots.

[OB1]

Have to agree that the missiles need more simulation work but isn't the pk of the AIM-120 poor in real life anyway ? Not sure anyone's got the actual figures but I'm pretty sure the actual hit miss ratio for all real BVR situations in real life combat are very poor.

 

On top of that, in DCS we can perform some serious defending as we are not subject to the same effects a real pilot would be faced with.

[OB1]

Yeah the AIM120C is so poor in real life that its has earned the nickname "Slammer" and has become the standard weapon of choice on all US Air Force fighters...

 

/sarcasm

 

Right sorry, because the USAF named something slammer must make it good then.

[OB1]

Right, sorry, because something a random sim enthusiast says on an online forum about a RL missle's performance automatically makes it true.

 

Dont want this to turn into a flame war, Ive been called out on this forum for daring to speculate on the RL performance of this missle, so why not keep your particualr opinion on the PK ratio of this missle to yourself.

 

If you read a tad more carefully you would realise I was asking in my original post rather un-provocatively, a question and left it open for a civilized and informed responses, But since you insisted to post with added attitude how did you expect anyone to respond ?

[Altimaden]

... has become the standard weapon of choice on all US Air Force fighters...

 

/sarcasm

 

just because it is the weapon of choice, doesn't make it best. at best, it is the least worst missile.

besides, just because something is popular, doesn't make it good: katy perry, jersey shore, twilight, religion.

[karambiatos]

Right, sorry, because something a random sim enthusiast says on an online forum about a RL missle's performance automatically makes it true and trumps the opinion of experts in air forces around the world who buy and field these missles.

actually it is on this forum, all you have to say is that you have data, but you can show it because its not publicly available.

 

case in point, i have data that shows that pizzas can grow on trees, but i cant give it to you because its not open to the public.

 

see you know its true.

[OB1]

just because it is the weapon of choice, doesn't make it best. at best, it is the least worst missile.

besides, just because something is popular, doesn't make it good: katy perry, jersey shore, twilight, religion.

 

Yeah, and I believe all it had to do to earn the name slammer was to score 3 hits.

[OB1]

actually it is on this forum, all you have to say is that you have data, but you can show it because its not publicly available.

 

case in point, i have data that shows that pizzas can grow on trees, but i cant give it to you because its not open to the public.

 

see you know its true.

 

The secrets out :music_whistling:

 

[KTLeth_61]

Dam now eveyone knows.

[GGTharos]

The Pk in real life, in all combat situations was very good when the missile was shot in good parameters.

 

People don't realize that a lot of shots take place in poor parameters (very long range, bandit near the notch, etc).

 

Have to agree that the missiles need more simulation work but isn't the pk of the AIM-120 poor in real life anyway ? Not sure anyone's got the actual figures but I'm pretty sure the actual hit miss ratio for all real BVR situations in real life combat are very poor.

 

On top of that, in DCS we can perform some serious defending as we are not subject to the same effects a real pilot would be faced with.

[whiteladder]

Since 1991 the Aim120 has scored 6 BVR kills for 13 missiles launched a 46% kill ratio.

 

The name Slammer originates from the first 3 AIM120 kill all being achieved with 1 missile/1 hit. These were all over the Iraqi No fly zone. There have been a number of misses since.