Auto Pilot Shenanigans

[Maachine]

shagrat, apparently i've given you too much rep. it wont let me give you anymore even though i've "spread some around". maybe one one of these new comers can give you some rep in my place.........

[Hamblue]

All good advice but;

 

Oddly I have never trimed the aircraft and auto pilot works fine for me. What stick do you use? It must be adding inputs/drifting or something.

If you haven't trimed the A-10 then you are constantly fighting it.

You should be able to let go of the stick and have the plane continue with little or no drift. Try it out and you will probably find it much easier to fly and control.

Auto pilot will usually work if you hold the stick to get the vertical velocity and angle in range.

[shagrat]

shagrat, apparently i've given you too much rep. it wont let me give you anymore even though i've "spread some around". maybe one one of these new comers can give you some rep in my place.........

No problemo... it's a forum function, don't know exactly why, how, when this happens... but thanks for the notion :notworthy:

[pii]

If you haven't trimed the A-10 then you are constantly fighting it.

You should be able to let go of the stick and have the plane continue with little or no drift. Try it out and you will probably find it much easier to fly and control.

Auto pilot will usually work if you hold the stick to get the vertical velocity and angle in range.

 

Well I can't say I m fighting it as it flies fairly straight but I'm sure I could trim it to make it fly straighter. Maybe I have never trimmed it due to the fact I use the AP a lot but the post I referenced said you wouldn't be able to use the AP if you weren't trimmed and clearly that is not the case. Or maybe I read it wrong, if so sorry. Later

[Guest Izoul123]

Well I can't say I m fighting it as it flies fairly straight but I'm sure I could trim it to make it fly straighter. Maybe I have never trimmed it due to the fact I use the AP a lot but the post I referenced said you wouldn't be able to use the AP if you weren't trimmed and clearly that is not the case. Or maybe I read it wrong, if so sorry. Later

 

I use TMWH to answer your posts. I find it hard to see how you can take off, not trim, and release say 3 mavericks off one side and still have the A10 flying straight, let alone have autopilot not disengage. When I first started the sim, I never trimmed and constantly had trouble with the autopilot disengaging after some weapon releases, and was constantly fighting the stick...I really have no idea how yours would be flying straight and level enough to let go of the joystick and not have it immediately bank/dive...maybe it's just my experiences with the sim and not yours.

 

But hey, if it's working for you, who am I to argue, but it didn't for me at all, especially after weapons releases/unbalanced weight due to remaining stores.

 

cheers

[Guest Izoul123]

I guess here is a track to what I'm referring to what I experience in the sim on my end. This is default no trim, in air start, with training bombs on. There is by default a 'down/to the right' pull on the aircraft by default it seems. I show an example in PATH, ALT/HDG, and finally ALT.

 

I'm letting go of the controls 100% before setting Autopilot on so you can see this, and also letting go of the controls after turning on autopilot in different modes, hopefully you can see this.

 

I'll admit it seems to hold in 'ALT' mode much better now by default vs what I remember many patches ago, but PATH, and ALT/HDG still will not hold for me without trimming from either a takeoff with trim set to takeoff config, or even instant air start.

 

Towards the end, I trim the A10, and then show examples of all modes holding just fine.

 

So what am I doing wrong vs others is my question as to how yours 'holds' on PATH, and ALT/HDG setting vs what I'm doing on a default config without ever trimming?

 

My HW is default TMWH, TIR5. No pedals (yet). Do I need to tweak something in Target TM software or something else then? Otherwise I'm at a loss as to how you guys can use all autopilot modes without trimming at all, and having them hold. I guess in a way it's no big deal to me as I trim all the time anyway, just interesting is all.

 

Thanks for the read/help.

 

-Izoul-

autopilot no trim.trk

Edited April 16, 2013 by Izoul123

[pii]

I use TMWH

 

I have one also but I'm is bigger:music_whistling:

 

to answer your posts. I find it hard to see how you can take off, not trim, and release say 3 mavericks off one side and still have the A10 flying straight,

Well I never said I can fly straight with all my weapons on one wing and the other empty but I can take off and not trim just fine.

 

let alone have autopilot not disengage.

Well you may have me there since I tend to even out my weapons and during an attack and I'm generally not trying to trim anything . But yeah if I had an empty wing it might cause a problem :doh: I have a hard enough time trying to target and get the weapon there that trimming is the last thing on my mind.

 

Can you actually trim the aircraft with your weapon load that unbalanced?

 

 

When I first started the sim, I never trimmed and constantly had trouble with the autopilot disengaging after some weapon releases, and was constantly fighting the stick...I really have no idea how yours would be flying straight and level enough to let go of the joystick and not have it immediately bank/dive...maybe it's just my experiences with the sim and not yours.

 

I never said it was flying perfectly straight and level just that I use the auto pilot a lot and I wouldn't call the small adjustments I make during flight "fighting" the controls nor do I let go of the stick unless I have AP on. Don't see the point of flying with no hands on such short missions.

But hey, if it's working for you, who am I to argue, but it didn't for me at all, especially after weapons releases/unbalanced weight due to remaining stores.

 

Stop releasing your weapons like that then:P

cheers

 

Anyways I said you made a lot of good points but I'm sorry I didn't know you liked firing off all your weapon from one wing and then tring to fly around like that, nor was that your statement. My bad.

 

Cheers

[pii]

I guess here is a track to what I'm referring to what I experience in the sim on my end. This is default no trim, in air start, with training bombs on. There is by default a 'down/to the right' pull on the aircraft by default it seems. I show an example in PATH, ALT/HDG, and finally ALT.

 

I'm letting go of the controls 100% before setting Autopilot on so you can see this, and also letting go of the controls after turning on autopilot in different modes, hopefully you can see this.

 

I'll admit it seems to hold in 'ALT' mode much better now by default vs what I remember many patches ago, but PATH, and ALT/HDG still will not hold for me without trimming from either a takeoff with trim set to takeoff config, or even instant air start.

 

Towards the end, I trim the A10, and then show examples of all modes holding just fine.

 

So what am I doing wrong vs others is my question as to how yours 'holds' on PATH, and ALT/HDG setting vs what I'm doing on a default config without ever trimming?

 

My HW is default TMWH, TIR5. No pedals (yet). Do I need to tweak something in Target TM software or something else then? Otherwise I'm at a loss as to how you guys can use all autopilot modes without trimming at all, and having them hold. I guess in a way it's no big deal to me as I trim all the time anyway, just interesting is all.

 

Thanks for the read/help.

 

-Izoul-

 

I noticed it rolls the same way no matter what and I had the same thing happen when I first got the WH. I even though I had a bad stick but it went away (didn't do anything it just stopped) but it does come back from time to time. When it happened to me even trimming didn't stop the roll to the right .

 

Here's my track and although I roll to the right also its not anywhere near as bad as yours. Also I need to learn how to use selective jettison I dropped everything opps, I'll try again when I wake up. But you can see I don't have a lot of fighting going on and can use AP no problem

trim mission.trk

Edited April 16, 2013 by pii

[Guest Izoul123]

Well I never said I can fly straight with all my weapons on one wing and the other empty but I can take off and not trim just fine.

 

**And you can let go of the stick and it still flies level?? I'm talking after you are to altitude, flying straight/level towards your first way-point for example, no autopilot? Why wouldn't you trim it out? :huh:

 

let alone have autopilot not disengage.

Well you may have me there since I tend to even out my weapons and during an attack and I'm generally not trying to trim anything . But yeah if I had an empty wing it might cause a problem I have a hard enough time trying to target and get the weapon there that trimming is the last thing on my mind.

 

***If you have TMWH, why would you not use your right thumb and instantly trim it quick would be my retort? It's less effort and makes your life easier...:huh: Of course I try to balance my weapons load as well, the demo track file I was just emptying one side to show it's still exaggerated down and right. Also, the default load for instant missions is usually 2 different types of MAVS, so it WILL be unbalanced on one side if you rifle 3 of 1 type...I'm not implying I 'try' to unload a wing, but it's quite possible when combat happens I might end up with 'unbalanced' wings...hence trim. Also, if having trouble lining up, wouldn't you want the aircraft to be in the best possible flight configuration towards your IP without relying on AP, it's one less thing to worry about?

 

Can you actually trim the aircraft with your weapon load that unbalanced?

 

**Yep, sure can. Try it!

 

When I first started the sim, I never trimmed and constantly had trouble with the autopilot disengaging after some weapon releases, and was constantly fighting the stick...I really have no idea how yours would be flying straight and level enough to let go of the joystick and not have it immediately bank/dive...maybe it's just my experiences with the sim and not yours.

 

I never said it was flying perfectly straight and level just that I use the auto pilot a lot and I wouldn't call the small adjustments I make during flight "fighting" the controls nor do I let go of the stick unless I have AP on. Don't see the point of flying with no hands on such short missions.

**The track I posted was just to demo the effect lol. Why wouldn't you want to trim it out though, if EAC got hit your autopilot is gonzo, and what if you need to run to the bathroom while in multiplayer when this happens...LOL...you just seem to be anti trim....are you trim prejudice? (I'm just joking lol...keep calm).:lol:

 

But hey, if it's working for you, who am I to argue, but it didn't for me at all, especially after weapons releases/unbalanced weight due to remaining stores.

 

Stop releasing your weapons like that then

**Again, that was just for demo...

 

cheers

[pii]

Well I never said I can fly straight with all my weapons on one wing and the other empty but I can take off and not trim just fine.

 

**And you can let go of the stick and it still flies level?? I'm talking after you are to altitude, flying straight/level towards your first way-point for example, no autopilot? Why wouldn't you trim it out? :huh:

==Did you see the track I posted? While I have a slight roll to the right I'm fling pretty darn level and my roll is far less.

let alone have autopilot not disengage.

Well you may have me there since I tend to even out my weapons and during an attack and I'm generally not trying to trim anything . But yeah if I had an empty wing it might cause a problem :doh: I have a hard enough time trying to target and get the weapon there that trimming is the last thing on my mind.

 

***If you have TMWH, why would you not use your right thumb and instantly trim it quick would be my retort? It's less effort and makes your life easier...:huh: Of course I try to balance my weapons load as well, the demo track file I was just emptying one side to show it's still exaggerated down and right. Also, the default load for instant missions is usually 2 different types of MAVS, so it WILL be unbalanced on one side if you rifle 3 of 1 type...I'm not implying I 'try' to unload a wing, but it's quite possible when combat happens I might end up with 'unbalanced' wings...hence trim. Also, if having trouble lining up, wouldn't you want the aircraft to be in the best possible flight configuration towards your IP without relying on AP, it's one less thing to worry about?

==I don't "use my thumb and instantly trim" because I generally don't trim so I've re assigned the hat functions. :doh:

Can you actually trim the aircraft with your weapon load that unbalanced?

 

**Yep, sure can. Try it!

 

==Don't need to. If you viewed my track you can see I'm pretty good and I tend to stay away from really off balanced loads.

When I first started the sim, I never trimmed and constantly had trouble with the autopilot disengaging after some weapon releases, and was constantly fighting the stick...I really have no idea how yours would be flying straight and level enough to let go of the joystick and not have it immediately bank/dive...maybe it's just my experiences with the sim and not yours.

 

I never said it was flying perfectly straight and level just that I use the auto pilot a lot and I wouldn't call the small adjustments I make during flight "fighting" the controls nor do I let go of the stick unless I have AP on. Don't see the point of flying with no hands on such short missions.

**The track I posted was just to demo the effect lol. Why wouldn't you want to trim it out though, if EAC got hit your autopilot is gonzo, and what if you need to run to the bathroom while in multiplayer when this happens...LOL...you just seem to be anti trim....are you trim prejudice? (I'm just joking lol...keep calm).:lol:

 

==LOL OK OK if I ever have to go pee during a long flight I'll Trim it! Damn you're so set on me trimming I'll do it just for you! :PI have yet to find a server though with anyone on since I've been working night shifts so on my days off I tend to play around 3am. SO I'm generally play multi player alone :cry: because sadly everyone else in the world seems to be ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz at that time

 

But hey, if it's working for you, who am I to argue, but it didn't for me at all, especially after weapons releases/unbalanced weight due to remaining stores.

 

Stop releasing your weapons like that then:P

**Again, that was just for demo...

 

The Track may have been a demo but you plainly used it in a response to me that if I fired off all my mavs I would have trouble flying, And I agreed I probably would. Now after watching your track I'd say you have something wrong. Did you see my track and see my response to your track????

 

I don't know why you seem to have taken such a hard line on my response, maybe you just don't like not always being right or something. I was just pointing out it is not a hard fact that not trimming will not let you use AP and I can prove it.

I think your track ,demo or not, shows you seem to have some serious roll to the right and down and I'm sure that is not normal. I also had that going on for some time when I first got my TMWH and I did try to trim but it never worked. Whatever was causing my roll just kept doing it even trimmed. Which is why I origanlly asked you what your controller was. It wasn't to say your controller sucked or anything like that.

 

I don't remember if I set an axis dead zone to fix or if it just stopped I'll check later if you're interested?? (I also had that issue in other games like rFactor were my car kept driving to the right) Yes I use the TMWH for driving sims :joystick:

 

If you watch my track you have to admit our aircrafts are acting totally different with hand off flying without trimming. Why I don't know and if i had your problem I would also have said you needed to trim to make AP work.

cheers

 

I'm going to load up the a10 on one side and I'll post the track to see how bad I roll later. If you're interested in trying to figure out why you are rolling so bad let me know and I'll check my setting but I'm done with this trim conversation as I never meant for it to become a flame war so lets move forward, ok?

 

Cheers

[pii]

I'm going to load up the a10 on one side and I'll post the track to see how bad I roll later. If you're interested in trying to figure out why you are rolling so bad let me know and I'll check my setting but I'm done with this trim conversation as I never meant for it to become a flame war so lets move forward, ok?

 

Cheers

Here is a quick ,demo, track with only one wing loaded. Yep it flies really bad and the AP disengages but once I even out the load (no weapons in this case) my plane flies pretty damn straight and level. It slowly lost some altitude but a little throttle brings it up no need to trim and the AP works fine and I can go pee for hours in this configurations :thumbup:

 

I also went back and veiwed your trk again and I see while your bombs are loaded the same on both sides you do have a AA missile and a pod loaded on one side also so I guess that could cause that roll.

 

So I did a similar payload and it did roll but still not as bad as yours and the AP still worked and was able to correct the roll for me.

Sorry forgot to save track :-( I do that all the time.

 

Take care

trim unbalanced mission.trk

Edited April 16, 2013 by pii

[Maachine]

just to add to this, if your trim is off....autopilot wont hold. trim the plane.....turn on autopilot........then trim the plane to one direction. it will disengage the autopilot eventually. just like moving the stick will disengage the autopilot.

 

even with the plane being trimmed up all nice.......i have issues with alt/bank hold shutting off if i let go of the stick too quickly after turning on autopilot. gotta ease the stick back into the center position.

[Guest Izoul123]

LOL flame war it is not. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest at all. I was only discussing my way vs your way(s). No I didn't check your track but I will, and I do apologize for not doing so, I was running late for work as is at time of last reply. Job has been very demanding lately with corporate inspections...:( I'm sorry, will check it out after my steak is done on the grill.

 

That's the problem with internet conversations, it's very much hard to tell the 'tone' of the conversation. I'm not trying to be 'hardline/call anyone out', nor claim I'm the 'right/expert'...trust me I'd rather have this conversation at the bar over some rounds and I'd buy pii & pr1malr8ge both rounds during this conversation in very friendly open tones of discussion. That's one of the things I greatly respect about the DCS community, is the civil discussions. So please let's not call it a flamewar, as it's not that at all. I just was discussing how I do it, and it's interesting to see how the sim behaves/how others fly it. Don't take my replies as 'hardline' or 'versus/you are wrong', I apologize if that's the tone it seemed to be, hopefully you can accept the apology. If anything I ask questions, it's because maybe your way is better, and if so I want to know/learn it to be better at the sim, that's all. My settings again, to clarify, were default. This is how the sim behaves for me on default settings. Most of my online joins are the 'Dragons' series rotations. 4 mav, 4 cbu105 is my favorite quick loadout. I don't try to do some 'specialized' load-out to 'try' to unbalance the aircraft to 'prove' anything.

 

There is no 'right' way since we're not in the actual military under specific guidelines, and this is a hobby for fun. I offered my 2 cents, and you both as well. No harm/foul in sharing ideas/practices. I could give 2 shits less if people fly this sim with their left foot and keyboard only, whatever works...

I hope to fly with you both some day, and I'll buy the first 'virtual' round.

Hopefully this buries any virtual 'hatchet' that might be implied, that was never the intention.

 

PS: Out of curiosity, mind me asking what you re-mapped the trim controls to on your TMWH pii? I'm always open to new ideas....:pilotfly:

Edited April 18, 2013 by Izoul123

[jay43]

Wow, seems we have a pretty good unintentional flame war going on here..

 

as pii stated and as I fly the same way. balance loading munitions is what we do. I do believe the real pilots/munitions loaders would do the same..

 

I highly doubt any real life A10 and it's pilot would go up with lets say three mavs on one side and an a heavy ordnance load on the other that may not be used. The reason for that is what you're going through and it being a safety concern on landing.

 

 

I under stand your point of constantly needing to "trim" the aircraft so you can take your hands off the stick for a brief minute.. How ever in pii's and myself's when we don't "trim" letting for of the stick the plane will drift here and there but it will be minor that and with no trimming we can put autopilot on and go take a crap and come back and the aircraft will still be in autopilot. With the way you load out your plane I suspect when you have the aircraft trimmed the tabs will be at there maximum ability and should the plane counter any change in atmospheric pressure/winds while in autopilot it will kick it off.. In our cases it shouldn't.

 

I think you should rethink how you load out your aircraft.

 

I think you should think again fella, all of the above is balderdash.

Explain this to me high and mighty if my aircraft is empty no ordanance or the short name BOMBS why is it to keep auto pilot on i have to trim trim trim.

Infact apart from you everyone on here bangs on about trim trim trim.

Also just to point out i have seen these planes flying in and out fully loaded with all sorts on them an coming back in with only half on one side of the aircraft balanced i think not.

[shagrat]

I would simply state a citation from "Warthog: Flying the A-10 in the Gulf War" by William L. Smallwood. - (...) "The trim mechanism is said to be so bad that when the aircraft [A-10] is being fired at by AAA(...) there is no need to perform violent evasive maneuvers, or 'jink'. Instead, all the A-10 pilot has to do is turn loose of the controls and let the plane fly 'hands off'."

So I trust the real life Gulf War veteran pilots, that trim often is perhaps a benefitial thing... oh, by the way, unbalanced loadouts are common and just loading the ECM pod and the TGP will unbalance the configuration. If you drop one bomb it is 500 pounds weight missing what should require a retrim or you compensate directly with the stick. :joystick:

Ok the SAS helps a lot stabilizing, but if you just happen to get some wind, and dropped a bomb you may find it's difficult to have the autopilot engaged unless you soft and smooth compensate until the flight is stable. Unless you have game mode activated.:music_whistling:

[GreyBadger]

Ok the SAS helps a lot stabilizing,

I have to be honest here and admit that I'd never even heard of "SAS" (not including the "Who Dares Wins" variety obviously) until "Kerbal Space Program." :poster_oops:

 

Badger

[pii]

I think you should think again fella, all of the above is balderdash.

Explain this to me high and mighty if my aircraft is empty no ordanance or the short name BOMBS why is it to keep auto pilot on i have to trim trim trim.

 

Why so angry and whats with the name calling Mr High and Mighty?

Gezzzz All I ever said was I don't trim and I can use auto pilot.

 

In fact apart from you everyone on here bangs on about trim trim trim.

 

Hmm actually its just you and that other guy But if you think that's everyone have at it.

Why you have to TRIM TRIM TRIM RIM is anyone's guess, perhaps your controller isn't calibrated who knows, but I posted a track that clearly shows I fly pretty darn straight and level with no bombs loaded and no trimming required. Feel free to check it out.

 

Also just to point out i have seen these planes flying in and out fully loaded with all sorts on them an coming back in with only half on one side of the aircraft balanced i think not.

 

We're talking about a game not real life and how WE fly.

 

 

Gezzz you guys can make a flame war out of anything. All I said was the poster made some good points but insisted you had to trim trim trim to use AP. That is clearly not the case, at least not for everyone.

If you want to carry on and try to prove you guys are never wrong and have a never ending flame war just to prove your point then...

 

OK OK OK YOU Have to trim trim trim to use AP I was crazy to ever think you didn't. I beg for your forgiveness! How can I ever show my face again, such shame I have never known :cry::music_whistling:

 

Feel better now? So lets move on and start fighting about what does high and mighty mean? Is it some sort of pilot thing?

Gezzzzzzzzzzz

 

I'm out I have to go trim trim trim my a-10 now because if I don't Auto pilot will not work..remember that kids. :doh:

[Cookie]

I don´t have anything to add to the discussion, but pii, please learn how to quote properly.

[Wayc00lio]

I generally use Path hold when climbing out to waypoints, Alt/Heading hold when I'm at the desired height and just flying about and Alt hold when orbiting an area looking for targets or waiting for JTAC to respond near the IP - something like that. Just pan down to the swich (or have it mapped to your stick), select the correct option and when your speed is above 200 hit the A key. If your speed isn't fast enough, the AP will disconnect as there is not enough airflow to keep the jet balanced in the correct configuration. The AP won't fight to keep you in the correct configuration if your speed is low when you engage it, but if your speed drops when it is already engaged, it will keep you at the right configuration.

 

To turn off AP, you can either manouever until it disengages, or just press the A key again. I use both methods (not at the same time), depending on what's going on!

[shagrat]

:cry:

 

I'm out I have to go trim trim trim my a-10 now because if I don't Auto pilot will not work..remember that kids. :doh:

YOU don't have to do anything at all. You may even not use the autopilot at all or deactivate SAS if you like, it is YOUR simulated A-10.

What people are trying to explain for other people here is: In real life, and pretty much in the very accurate sim, trim is available for a reason. We "kids" (I'm over 40 by the way) trust more in the original USAF manuals, real life A-10C pilots and other valid sources, rather than a smartass know-it-all.

we simply try to tell people how it is done in real life. And behold, many of us "kids" flying this sim since years, find the real life pilots advice quite helpful, junior:D

[pii]

I don´t have anything to add to the discussion, but pii, please learn how to quote properly.

 

I qoute just fine it's way to hard to cut out each point in a message and add those stupid Ouote marks. Feel free to do it if you like I'll stick with mine. :thumbup:

[pii]

YOU don't have to do anything at all. You may even not use the autopilot at all or deactivate SAS if you like, it is YOUR simulated A-10.

What people are trying to explain for other people here is: In real life, and pretty much in the very accurate sim, trim is available for a reason. We "kids" (I'm over 40 by the way) trust more in the original USAF manuals, real life A-10C pilots and other valid sources, rather than a smartass know-it-all.

we simply try to tell people how it is done in real life. And behold, many of us "kids" flying this sim since years, find the real life pilots advice quite helpful, junior:D

 

The orignal post had nothing to do with Real life or how it is done in real life. It was related to the game. By the way I'm no kid and way over 40. I may be a smart-ass though:thumbup:

[sobek]

I qoute just fine it's way to hard to cut out each point in a message and add those stupid Ouote marks.

 

What's the point in making a post if people can't read it properly? You might leave it be just as well. ;)

[pii]

What's the point in making a post if people can't read it properly? You might leave it be just as well. ;)

 

Why can't you read it properly? Read the black text and then read the red text i.e. the reply.

Frankly, if I may call you Franky, I think everyone has figured it out so stop picking on my or I'm going to cry. :cry:<-- just look at my sad face

[sobek]

Why can't you read it properly? Read the black text and then read the red text i.e. the reply.

 

Well you quoted a post that had already mixed color fonts, then you mixed it with switching colors on the fonts in your own post, let me tell you, it is not easy to read. Preparing the quote tags takes about as much time as it takes to switch the color of the fonts.

 

Besides, i'm not picking on you, just trying to tell you that you might get more people interested in the stuff you write if they don't have to scratch their heads to figure out who said what. Obeying the text setting rules that are considered the norm in a forum is part of the netiquette. :thumbup: It makes the forum more enjoyable for everybody.