Auto Pilot Shenanigans

[pii]

In the real world does the A10-C heading cursor on the ADI do more than just move around the dial in response to inputs? On most basic auto-pilots I have used you can have 'Heading Hold' (as in the A10-C simulation) as well as slaving the auto-pilot to the heading cursor (apparently not available in the simulation).

 

Just asking :music_whistling:

 

Whats the difference between "heading hold" and slaving it to the heading cursor?

 

Sounds like they would do the same?

 

Just asking

[Robin_Hood]

A heading hold slaved to the heading cursor would make the aircraft turn when you move said cursor around. As it is, it only holds current heading.

[pii]

A heading hold slaved to the heading cursor would make the aircraft turn when you move said cursor around. As it is, it only holds current heading.

 

oh ok.

Thanks

[Pikey]

This seems a strange conversation. The A10 usually starts out asymmetric so needs a tad roll trim to keep it level. If someone can tell me how to exactly balance the weight of a LITENING and ECM and 2x Sidewinders i'm interested. I'm not a big autopilot user on the A10 so I'm not contributing to the OP but in terms of having to trim, when firing weapons and starting from unbalanced, if there wasn't a requirement to trim after every weapon release as well as just normal operation, then the sim would be acting quite oddly from a layman's point of view.

 

Now it is being asserted that you don't need to trim to keep autopilot held....i'lll go with that a bit, but from memory your controls do seem to fight autopilot, which would lead back to the point about trimming first else there's a fight going on and autopilot isn't being efficient. I have never tested to see if this is a worthwhile argument (trim is required for effective autopilot use) but it doesn't make sense not to trim since at the very least by using autopilot to overcome your untrimmed plane you will a) risk it disconnecting and b) create instability when releasing it from autopilot. Instability from being untrimmed also acts over time and can obviously worsen if you hadn't trimmed for speed as well as ignoring roll which can tip the unbalance and autopilot deactivation.

 

Having said this the A10 is very stable in the sim and has nothing on say the P51 or BS.

 

I don't want to be argumentative with someone wanting to play their game their way, which is a fundamental right. Also achieving new ways of doing things is also fine, but I wouldn't want a searchable post on the internet giving the last page with views that are essentially justifying an unorthodox method, considering trimming is a prime fundamental of flight and applies in this case.

[Digital Aura]

To the original poster, I have to say you are absolutely right about the tutorial being very vague and frustrating.

I, too, was looking at nothing but ocean when Samuel L Jackson said I could now see my approach to the runway. WTF?

It would have been better if the tutorial was triggered by actions rather than by pause/unpause actions using the space bar.

Eventually, I got the hang of it myself and the tutorial made more sense when I knew WHEN to hit the spacebar to proceed to the next section.

But ultimately, YOU ARE CORRECT!

Very frustrating... now go try the Air to Air tutorial!!!! :mad:

[311Gryphon]

Badger,

 

I'm sure this has been said before in here but I haven't had the time to peruse all the answers. In case it hasn't, I just want to say that autopilot will not actually engage properly if you don't have the plane in suitable flight. I only use the altitude/heading and altitude/bank autopilot modes. In the first you need to be pretty close to wings level and be near zero on your Vertical Speed Indicator (at 0 ± 1000 fpm seems to work for me). I can usually get it much closer than that. For the altitude/bank hold you need to hold a fairly steady bank and be near zero on your VSI.

 

Now the other thing that was tricky for me at first was the fact that if you are holding stick pressure you can engage the autopilot but then you have to let off the stick. Sometimes the autopilot system doesn't seem to be able to keep up if you release stick pressure suddenly. For a heading hold you can trim the A-10 out or just work at it until you get close and set the autopilot then careful remove pressure from the stick. For the bank hold you just have to be careful releasing pressure.

 

I'm not very experienced with the sim so there are probably better explanations that have already been posted. It was only last week that I was able to figure out how to consistently engage autopilot so I thought I could be of some help since it was fresh on my mind.

 

As far as the controls go, I can't really help with that. Reading your original post made me even more relieved that I'm fortunate enough to have a TM Warthog to fly with. It makes it so much easier and more enjoyable for me.

[311Gryphon]

Pikey,

 

I've never had to trim to get the autopilot to engage. Trimming is VERY nice and I love having that mapped to the proper place on my HOTAS instead of the view that are originally mapped. Generally speaking, if you want to fly straight and level you can trim that and don't need the autopilot like you suggested, but would want to keep an eye on it because depending on many variable you may have to re-trim.

 

Like I said in my last post, I'm pretty new and just started getting the hang of this game last week. But I don't think trim and autopilot have a whole lot to do with each other except that they use various control surfaces to achieve a desired end result.

 

But thinking about the way I THINK real planes work (I've taken flight school and passed a written private pilots exam but never flew, so take this with a grain of salt) the trim simply makes slight adjustments to trim tabs to make your plane fly more or less straight and level. Autopilot, on the other hand, is a system built into the plane to automatically make corrections to control surfaces to keep a heading, altitude, or in the case of the A-10 a bank (or some combination of those things). It apparently can also maintain a vertical speed although I have not played with that at all.

 

So in looking at these things, it seems clear to me that if someone is required to trim before setting autopilot there is a different problem going on. I had a lot of trouble getting autopilot to set early on; however, I've found that the problem was 1) the plane was not in compatible flight when I engaged the autopilot and thus didn't actually engage or 2) I was in compatible flight and it did engage but disengaged immediately when I released stick pressure do to having to apply a lot of stick pressure to maintain compatible flight in the first place. So, trimming can be helpful but isn't necessary.

[GreyBadger]

To the original poster......

 

Badger, I'm sure this has been said before in here but I haven't had the time to peruse all the answers. In case it hasn't......

 

:thumbup: Thanks guys. This thread took on something of a life of its own and I've felt on and off that I'd put the Cat amongst the Pigeons. :lol: But all my original questions have been answered and then some. So thanks again to all for the advice.

 

@ Gryphon: The whole auto pilot question makes much more sense to me with some flying time under my belt since my original post. I now understand the different modes and I also understand why nothing appeared to be happening when I was trying to engage it before. Thanks though for checking in.

 

@ Digital Aura: Having gained a little cockpit experience now, I'm getting on better with that tutorial. Although I haven't achieved a landing well rounded enough that I can honestly point at as sufficient to tick that box and move on. Still things are feeling more right, more often so I know I'm moving forward.

 

I didn't have a problem with the space bar thing, but I did and still do have issues with the instructor not always keeping up with my progress and moving onto the next stage. (We're talking after the point of the last space bar press, which is when you take control for flying to the ILS intercept point (for want of the correct description) and the actual landing.

 

The problem I think is that after this point the next phase in the instructions is no longer prompted by a "spacebar" press, but by you fulfilling the previous set of instructions to the programs satisfaction. Since I'm not always accomplishing this, the tutorial moving onward can be unpredictable.

 

In all the times I've landed so far for example (and I almost always land) there has only been one occasion where the tutorial has moved onto the Warthog shut down phase. Only two occasions where the instructor has managed to keep up with what I'm doing in terms of announcing calls from ATC as they happen, or the actual touchdown itself. Other times he's made these announcements at various inappropriate times, even on one occasion, after I had already parked! Though he still didn't move onto a shut down procedure.

 

I'm satisfied though that the problem is the furry creature behind the joystick. The program wants to see a a certain set of parameters being achieved and it can get a little stroppy if I don't do it just so. I'm alright with this as in the first place I "want" to do it just so and in the second place I'm enjoying the process. :)

 

As for the tutorial itself? It's a difficult one to call really isn't it. On the one hand all "learning sims" are daunting to the uninitiated like your Badger and some might perhaps reasonably suggest that I'm being a little overambitious trying to tackle it, given my already admitted challenges in the grey matter department.

 

But on the other hand is it unreasonable to expect a good tutorial to be able to guide even the most newbish of newbies, through the most basic skills required? Before moving on to the more complicated aspects?

 

This landing tutorial in my opinion (having now clocked up at least a little time in the air) has aspects which are certain to cause problems for the unwary. The approach vector given by ATC for example, leaves you as an inexperienced pilot, with very little time to make the required left hand turn at the appropriate moment. While I've discovered that when the instructor gives you control to make that ATC heading change, he'll start talking again and take control back, at whatever heading you straighten out at. So I've been straightening out a little early to give me more time to make the turn into the runway when it comes to it.

(Did that paragraph make sense outside of my head?)

 

And why so high? From memory the approach pattern altitude is 2500ft, but the tutorial wants to leave you virtually on top of the airfield at something like 8000ft. That's fine for an experienced pilot, but why that extra layer of difficulty for someone so wet behind the ears, that he's got his work cut out just following all the aspects of the ILS landing?

 

Here both Digital Aura and I are I think both suggesting that having spent time with the tutorial it is making more sense and it's various aspects are now coming properly into focus. Great. And I'm enjoying the process which is the main thing after all. But is a basic tutorial which requires pre developed skills in order to properly grasp, not something of an oxymoron?

 

Yours with a "taking my thread back" stripe. :lol:

Badger

[311Gryphon]

I think you are correct about some of the tutorials. I have not done the landing one even though I should. It just hasn't been high on my list. But some of the other tutorials can be daunting in the first place, and in the second can leave you sitting in your chair wondering what just happened to you. I've been left in the dust on several tutorials.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think they are great tutorials. There is just a lot going on and like many things in the real world there may be multiple ways of accomplishing the desired task. Therefore it gets confusing at times. That is what makes this sim an awesome one and what makes it so hard to get into. There isn't just one button press and forget about for most of the functions of the plane. That being the case. a few of the tutorials will not make any sense to some people. In my case, I just skip them and may or may not come back later depending on if I feel I require learning them.

 

Thanks, Badger, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had to deal with those types of frustrations!

[Digital Aura]

Here both Digital Aura and I are I think both suggesting that having spent time with the tutorial it is making more sense and it's various aspects are now coming properly into focus.

 

Badger

 

Yes, exactly. It makes more sense in retrospect... and I can see how noobies would simply give up and think there's something wrong with the game tutorials. Indeed, there is a problem... methinks they were written and scripted by experienced sim-pilots who may have lost some context.

[NhiTrac]

Here's what I do when i fly with my usual loadout (AIM-9*2, Litening Pod, ALQ-131, AGM-65*2 or 4, some sort of bombs*2 or 4) using a TMWH:

 

* takeoff

* trim up and left a few clicks

* then trim pitch only as per speed

* engage autopilot (don't touch trim)

* fire a weapon

* trim left or right to compensate weight distribution

* reset trim to land

 

Works for me and don't care what anyone else does :pilotfly:

[pii]

I think you are correct about some of the tutorials. I have not done the landing one even though I should. It just hasn't been high on my list. But some of the other tutorials can be daunting in the first place, and in the second can leave you sitting in your chair wondering what just happened to you. I've been left in the dust on several tutorials.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think they are great tutorials. There is just a lot going on and like many things in the real world there may be multiple ways of accomplishing the desired task. Therefore it gets confusing at times. That is what makes this sim an awesome one and what makes it so hard to get into. There isn't just one button press and forget about for most of the functions of the plane. That being the case. a few of the tutorials will not make any sense to some people. In my case, I just skip them and may or may not come back later depending on if I feel I require learning them.

 

Thanks, Badger, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had to deal with those types of frustrations!

 

I gave up on those interactive tutorials. They were always either not responding to the space bar or would ask me to do something, and I would miss what it was and the text would roll off the screen, so I would sit there going "what? What am I suppose to do again?" lol

 

So between me not listening and the tutorial not responding I gave them up. I hunt down good YouTube tutorials now. I now watch so many of them I never have time to fly the sim :doh:

If they worked and there was a way to have them repeat what they wanted me to do they would be great though.

[Digital Aura]

...and I would miss what it was and the text would roll off the screen, so I would sit there going "what? What am I suppose to do again?" lol

 

 

THIS!

[Darkwolf187]

Re: autopilot vs trim tabs, to the best of my knowledge, the A-10 autopilot does not maneuver the primary control surfaces of the plane at all. All the autopilot controls is the trim tabs. That's why the autopilot can't do large attitude corrections without disconnecting.

 

Note that the reason for this is that the A-10 isn't a fly-by-wire bird. The linkages between the stick and the control surfaces are hydraulic.

 

That's also why manual reversion actually works in the case of losing hydraulic pressure - manual reversion doesn't mess with the primary control surfaces, you're flying the trim tabs instead.

[pii]

THIS!

Glad to see I'm not the only one!