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The Podium Effect (when employing LGBs): Is it modelled in DCS World?


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I´m currently reading "Stealth Fighter" by Lt. Col. William B. O´Connor, where he talks about his life in the F-117 community and how he fought in Operation Allied Force. Awesome book, highly recommended! Gives some really nice insights into the many peculiarities of the stealth community.

 

In one part of the book he is talking about a particular attack during OAF. The target, a munitions plant, was surrounded by huge berms on all four sides, and he explains what was necessary to hit this target. One of those things that he needed to take into consideration when dropping the bomb onto a target surrounded by those berms was the podium effect, which was a new term to me. I´ll just post the relevant snippet so you guys know what I´m talking about:

 

The third and final factor I had to deal with is called the podium effect. Suppose that the plane is flying directly over the target while the bomb is falling. Since the aircraft is powered through the air by its engines while the bomb is simply falling, and therefore slowing due to air drag, the plane will not be directly over the bomb as it falls, but will pull ahead of it. The plane will cross over the target and be significantly past it several seconds before the bomb impacts. So, during those final few seconds, the bomb will be looking forward toward the target while the aircraft mounted laser is looking backward. If there is a tall obstacle near the target, such as a wall, the laser will be illuminating the backside of the wall while the falling bomb sees nothing because there is no laser energy hitting the front side of the wall. Just another little bit of geometry to contend with.
Before reading the book I never really thought about this problem, which brings me to the question: Is this effect actually modelled in DCS World? If I want to kill a tank, should I put the laser on top of it instead of its side? What about buildings? If I want to drop a hangar, should I aim for its roof instead of its wall? Can the bomb actually go blind in DCS World because the laser hits the other side of the target?

- Two miles of road lead nowhere, two miles of runway lead everywhere -

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AFAIK occlusion of the laser is modelled. It's why you always want to range your target instead of letting the CDU aim on the ground below your target.

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Can the bomb actually go blind in DCS World because the laser hits the other side of the target?

 

 

yup it's modeled. hence why you cant just pull off target when lasing for your bomb. When the TGP is masked so is the laser.

 

You can even steer the bomb towards a second target if you like

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Yes, I know all that. This doesn´t have anything to do with masking or walking the bomb into the target, but simply this: If I aim at a wall and the bomb starts guiding toward the point I am illuminating, what happens when I move the laser over to the other side of that wall? Will the bomb still go for the laser dot, which technically is still illuminating the very same spot, just on the other side of the wall, or will it go dumb as it does in real life?

- Two miles of road lead nowhere, two miles of runway lead everywhere -

Click here for system specs

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Yes, I know all that. This doesn´t have anything to do with masking or walking the bomb into the target, but simply this: If I aim at a wall and the bomb starts guiding toward the point I am illuminating, what happens when I move the laser over to the other side of that wall? Will the bomb still go for the laser dot, which technically is still illuminating the very same spot, just on the other side of the wall, or will it go dumb as it does in real life?

 

See this:

 

AFAIK occlusion of the laser is modelled.

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Which is useful when dropping a JDAM, but kinda pointless when dropping a LGB. ;)

 

Nope. SPI elevation changes after ranging. Unless you want to constantly steer your SPI by hand.

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

Use punctuation, save lives!

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See this:

 

Well, he has a point in that whether or not the laser is modeled doesn't mean that this is.

 

We all know that the laser occlusion from the aircraft is modeled, but that isn't the same thing as the laser from the bombs point of view.

 

I think it is correct in game, but I am not sure, and just because the laser exists doesn't provide any evidence that the bomb would go dumb if you mask it from the laser.


Edited by Irregular programming
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Well, he has a point in that whether or not the laser is modeled doesn't mean that this is.

 

I didn't say the laser was modelled, i said laser occlusion is. ;)

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

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Ahhh I know what you mean now. Well from what I know if the bomb tracks teh laser then it wil already correct towards it. If the laser is shutdown / or is obstructed by that wall it will go dumb. But i think the flight path will remain towards the last postion the bomb was pointed towards. It wont be precises tho .

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But i think the flight path will remain towards the last postion the bomb was pointed towards. It wont be precises tho .

 

No, paveway II is not that intelligent. If the spot is lost, the control surfaces will simply remain in the "straight ahead" position which means that the bomb will go ballistic, that is, it will (depending on it's orientation when the laser spot was lost) continue on a more or less ballistic path.


Edited by sobek

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

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So I've been trying to test this as a single-ship, but as SimFreak points out, it's hard to do. I haven't been able to get the bomb to go dumb by occluding the laser behind a building yet, but I haven't quite been able to get my angles right yet either.

 

Seems like the best approach is to start a moderate dive around 25,000 feet, release the bomb around 20,000 and then continue the descent to keep your speed up. That way your plane flies past the target before the bomb gets there.

 

I've flown past the target building while lasing at the base, but the bomb still guided to the spot (even though the spot appeared to be "hidden" on the other side of the building). But again, it's hard to get the angles right as a single. MP buddy lasing would for sure be easier.

 

So those are my not-quite-conclusive results. Science! :D :P

 

--NoJoe

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Should be pretty simple to replicate, simply place your target as close as posible to the base of a tall building and release the bomb flying towards the building from target side. Fly high and not very fast and accelerate after release.

 

But since we know and we've seen many times that laser occlusion is indeed modeled i don't know why you would want to waste the time.

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Cookie, we tested exactly that a couple of days ago in our buddy lase training.

 

Set up situation was something like this: Designator flying east to west towards a shelter, shooter was flying opposite direction west to east. Designator aimed the laser to the bottom of the shelter.

 

The shooter should not have been able to find the spot with LSS, but did. After release, the GBU-12 should not have been able to track the spot, but did.

 

Forgive me my not existing drawing skills, but I hope this sketch makes it a little more clear:

 

tKFQQtL.png

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We tested on several buildings/targets. This obviously is just a symbolization.


Edited by Leto

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Guys, the podium effect is not modelled in DCS. Bombs go where you point the laser.

 

I droped laser bomb on water (to test if the beam is reflected/refracted) : all OK

after I droped 2 bombs on the following track on the best location i could imagine (the big dam in Georgia)

 

Results shown in the track file i attach.

 

PS: Eagle Dynamics please make the dam destroyable and model a FLOOD_WATER_DYNAMICS as the dam is strategic target to flood half map :)

Podium effect test.trk

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No, paveway II is not that intelligent. If the spot is lost, the control surfaces will simply remain in the "straight ahead" position which means that the bomb will go ballistic, that is, it will (depending on it's orientation when the laser spot was lost) continue on a more or less ballistic path.

 

Yup thats what i meant :) balisstic path

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Nope. SPI elevation changes after ranging. Unless you want to constantly steer your SPI by hand.

 

He is saying JDAMs benefit from a super accurate SPI, LGB's obviously don't, because last time I checked you actually guide the LGB in with your lazor... ;)

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