Rafale HUD dogfights

[Kaktus29]

@otto.. i think there are other reasons for France stepping out of Tiffy program.. its the France centric view of their position in Europe.. they feel that "independence" thing strongly or just view Germany with a weary eye.. Some projects are considered too important to be shared with others.. Rafal was one of those projects..

 

otherwise we would be seeing Euro-tank, Euro-sub, Euro-carrier..but we don't.. EU is not yet one big piece of Euro to merge stuff, France wants some military hardware completely theirs as if to hide the tech or ensure its not compromised in some way..

 

Anyway, both tiffy and raf are great dogfighters, tight turns and sustaining them like crazy.. i know about f22 fight its all a mock dogfight but still, if rafale couldn't turn for crap there wouldn't be no f22 on the hud of rafale.. so what i'm trying to say is nobody can deny the europe success in creating quite deadly turning machines..tiffy and rafal of course..

 

i don't want to even imagine the mock dogfights of f35 fat piglet vs. the tiffy or rafal.. it will be brutal .. especially since pentagon is stripping and downsizing the abilities of f35 to meet the "standard" that is being lowered so it can pass the tests.. god knows if f35 will be able to safely pull 9Gs without breaking up.. as it is, f35 is restricted to 5.5G, and flying not higher than 40.000 feet.. or was it 20.000 feet?..

 

it would seem US truly put all the eggs in one "stealthy" basket.. problem is, if it turns out it doesn't work they won't be able to strap on a machine gun like on f-4 in vietnam and correct their mistake..

[Pilotasso]

European stuff heavily under appreciated, French aircraft never deserved a decent SIM. :D

 

Although I have to say something about the video, its a mock engagement were both planes start side by side in visual contact when they call "fight's on" (not a red flag like exercise were you start BVR) and the French pilot simply showed to be better than the American one, while its a good show to watch it hides the truth of combat somewhat because the rafale got to skip all the BVR hassle it would find itself in had a real war scenario being simulated.

[Pilotasso]

@ FLANKERATOR

 

As an european I like the EF and Rafale just as much :) .

Both EF and Rafale are multyroles but AFAIK the Eurofighter was created as a air to air fighter first and air to ground second (That is why France stepped out).So france created the Rafale which was intended to be first a air to ground plane and second air to air.

So the EF has higher thrust to weight and lower wing loading.While the Rafale is probably better suited for ground atack roles.But as the video shows the Rafale is a great dogfighter as well.

 

They stepped out because they wanted leadership of the project and they called for a lighter aircraft than the brits wanted. of course the latter found that to be unacceptable. In the end the motive was 90% political, 10% technical. Its as simple as that.

 

The Rafale was made to be Multirole while the brits went the fighter-to-bomber classical development route. The Eurofighter has been up to now the superior AA fighter on paper, however that advantage has eroded with the introduction of the RBE2 AESA RADAR and integration of meteor missile. Also the French aircraft enjoys a maturity in multirole capabilities while the EF is suffering the results of years of cutbacks, with its AESA captor radar delayed as well as a number of AG capabilities integration.

 

So no, the rafale is not a primary AG mission plane (wonder why the French do not plan for any other aircraft to replace all other types). Its just as good at it as AA, and very competitive with the EF at it.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Pilotasso

[Rincevent]

The new French ACT (Avion de Combat Tactique, literally "Tactical Combat Aircraft") was required by the French Air Force and the French Navy to be an omni-role fighter (that is Air to Air and Air to Ground at equal capabilities) right from the start, even before the discussion between UK, France and Germany begun.

 

@Kaktus29 : the stepping-out by France has nothing to do with not sharing military secrets or whatever of the sort. France wanted a fighter that could replace the 7 types of plane in service in the FAF and FN in the seventies by a unique fighter, wich was not achievable with the initial EF project.

The French President François Mitterrand in the eighties even tried to revive cooperation with the countries involved in the EF in term of sensors and electronics.

[GGTharos]

@otto.. i think there are other reasons for France stepping out of Tiffy program.. its the France centric view of their position in Europe.. they feel that "independence" thing strongly or just view Germany with a weary eye.. Some projects are considered too important to be shared with others.. Rafal was one of those projects..

 

otherwise we would be seeing Euro-tank, Euro-sub, Euro-carrier..but we don't.. EU is not yet one big piece of Euro to merge stuff, France wants some military hardware completely theirs as if to hide the tech or ensure its not compromised in some way..

 

Yep, France has always had a big arms production and sales sector. Germany and UK are the competitors IMHO, and then there was also SAAB, IIRC.

 

Anyway, both tiffy and raf are great dogfighters, tight turns and sustaining them like crazy.. i know about f22 fight its all a mock dogfight but still, if rafale couldn't turn for crap there wouldn't be no f22 on the hud of rafale.. so what i'm trying to say is nobody can deny the europe success in creating quite deadly turning machines..tiffy and rafal of course..

This is a horrible misunderstanding of BFM. There's no plane that 'can't turn for crap'. Some turn better, some turn worse, same with climbing - but generally the differences aren't insane, and the balance can be easily altered just by having a different payload or fuel level.

 

i don't want to even imagine the mock dogfights of f35 fat piglet vs. the tiffy or rafal.. it will be brutal .. especially since pentagon is stripping and downsizing the abilities of f35 to meet the "standard" that is being lowered so it can pass the tests.. god knows if f35 will be able to safely pull 9Gs without breaking up.. as it is, f35 is restricted to 5.5G, and flying not higher than 40.000 feet.. or was it 20.000 feet?..

On the other hand, F-35 fat piglet will kick down doors on day one while the tiffy and rafale will get shot down if they try the same thing.

 

it would seem US truly put all the eggs in one "stealthy" basket.. problem is, if it turns out it doesn't work they won't be able to strap on a machine gun like on f-4 in vietnam and correct their mistake..

That's like saying French stuck all their eggs in one Rafale basket. The first thing to understand is that the F-35 is a strike fighter with significant air to air capability. A real dogfight with an F-22 or F-35 in real combat will not look like what you saw on the video. It isn't going to be a beak-to-beak pass, the stealth plane will come in with a positional advantage because the other guy can't easily tell where it's coming from - all dogfights with F-22's you will see on youtube are usually 'fair' dogfights where everyone knows where the other guy is.

 

This is good for honing pilot skill, but it is not representative of how actual combat is done, especially with a stealth fighter.

 

Also note that there was no missile use (the Rafale pilot did call a fox2, but IMHO that was probably rminned - but who knows ) which is also part of practice since you want to go through all your weapons envelopes.

 

In the end, he did not get a gun kill, they aborted the fight due to either hard deck or fuel. According to a french pilot, out of those 6 fights the Rafale claimed 2 kills on the F-22, so the fighting was definitely competitive. No info on how many kills the F-22's claimed (it doesn't mean they claimed all 4 of the remaining fights, some may have been aborted).

Edited June 24, 2013 by GGTharos

[Pilotasso]

On the other hand, F-35 fat piglet will kick down doors on day one while the tiffy and rafale will get shot down if they try the same thing.

 

I have to make an observation regarding this, The Eurofighter and Rafale wont be employed the same way as an F-35. So a direct comparison is a misleading one. Germany, UK and France have scores of long range tactical cruise air launched missiles (scalp, Taurus etc) along with considerable amounts of recce means. They can get targets from afar, the nature of the attack is very hard to defend from.

 

This approach shifts the technical risks and costs of developing stealth aircraft transferring them instead to long range ordnance.

[NineLine]

Fighters evolve as well, they will use data from these fights and improve the F-22, what you seen now may be significantly altered in the next variant... just look at how older aircraft have changed over the years between variants... Even the Rafale has changed/improved over time since its first variant...

[Kaktus29]

again, i know what a mock dogfight is, and it doesn't take anything out of Rafal abilities. so they start in a fair fight..its still something.. i would imagine F22 dominating with superior T/W ratio, TVC, but that wasn't the case.. from that point of view i'm impressed.. now if the mock dogfight started with F22 in front of Tiffy/Rafal then i understand the desperation of f22 defenders..but as i see it was a fair fight where both planes start with equal advantage/disadvantage..

 

about BVR thats another thing..thats realm of electronics, RWR, radar, stealth etc.. hardly plane ability but mosty whats inside that counts.. this mock dogfight was to show rafal plane,airframe worthiness and it was awesome.. as well as tiffy also..

 

i do wonder though.. why didn't EU pull the stealth card when designing the new fighter.. ? are they to inept?-i doubt it, .. or is it not to cause Washington un-easiness as it would make US think EU trying to break orbit ))

 

i think the latter.. in that sense its stupid that EU has to degrade themselves so US can feel superior to EU.. and i wonder what design a EU stealth 5gen plane would look like.. hmm..

[otto]

GGTharos is right.The most important aspect about WVR dogfighting is the way you enter a dogfight.The f35 has an advantage over unstealthy oponents.

[Kaktus29]

@otto.. we are not discussing tactics but plain old simple aircraft maneuvering abilities..

[otto]

@Kaktus29 Yes in maneuvering the f35 is.. not good :) .Low sustained G (5.5 if i remember corectly) in a turn and so on.

[UCAS]

On the other hand, F-35 fat piglet will kick down doors on day one while the tiffy and rafale will get shot down if they try the same thing.

So are you saying that this piglet will huff and puff and blow our house down? Because as I remember it, that's not how the story goes.

[NineLine]

So are you saying that this piglet will huff and puff and blow our house down? Because as I remember it, that's not how the story goes.

 

The third variant will be the one to watch... while the first 2 wont withstand the wolf :)

[GGTharos]

The F-35 will be entirely capable of delivering those if the customer desires, and AGM-158/154 for the USAF/USN. So sure, direct comparison is misleading, until you run out of cruise missiles.

 

I have to make an observation regarding this, The Eurofighter and Rafale wont be employed the same way as an F-35. So a direct comparison is a misleading one. Germany, UK and France have scores of long range tactical cruise air launched missiles (scalp, Taurus etc) along with considerable amounts of recce means. They can get targets from afar, the nature of the attack is very hard to defend from.

 

This approach shifts the technical risks and costs of developing stealth aircraft transferring them instead to long range ordnance.

[GGTharos]

TVC doesn't dominate anything. TVC right now is useful in two places: Supercruise (to reduce drag from angled control surfaces) and post-stall maneuvering. If you're post-stall maneuvering, you have probably already lost the fight.

 

The TWR of the F-22 can be very superior, or it can be about equal to Rafale. Note that the Rafale is running low on fuel, so it's light. An empty Rafale is about 21000lbs, with max fuel of 10000lbs. It's engine thrust is rated at about 34000lbs, so you can see that if he's not carrying anything, he has pretty good TWR. Most modern fighters do.

 

And what sort of desperation are you talking about? There's no desperation from anyone, there's just your lack of understanding of BFM. Look at how long that fight lasted ... the pilots and planes are pretty well matched, they'd have ended up killed by the other guy's wingman in a real fight.

 

again, i know what a mock dogfight is, and it doesn't take anything out of Rafal abilities. so they start in a fair fight..its still something.. i would imagine F22 dominating with superior T/W ratio, TVC, but that wasn't the case.. from that point of view i'm impressed.. now if the mock dogfight started with F22 in front of Tiffy/Rafal then i understand the desperation of f22 defenders..but as i see it was a fair fight where both planes start with equal advantage/disadvantage..

 

Plane ability counts, just in a different way. But SA is very important. SA will be very important in a real WVR engagement also, something that is not a factor in a 1v1 fight.

 

about BVR thats another thing..thats realm of electronics, RWR, radar, stealth etc.. hardly plane ability but mosty whats inside that counts.. this mock dogfight was to show rafal plane,airframe worthiness and it was awesome.. as well as tiffy also..

 

Because it's expensive. They opted to go with 'low observable' instead of full-on stealth. Both the tiffy and rafale have significantly reduced RCS compared to previous generations of fighters.

 

i do wonder though.. why didn't EU pull the stealth card when designing the new fighter.. ? are they to inept?-i doubt it, .. or is it not to cause Washington un-easiness as it would make US think EU trying to break orbit ))

 

No, the EU doesn't give a flip about what the US wants or doesn't want. The EU doesn't even give a flip about what the EU wants. You many have noticed that while France built their own fighter, and the EF consortium has their own, other countries are opting for things like F-35's.

 

i think the latter.. in that sense its stupid that EU has to degrade themselves so US can feel superior to EU.. and i wonder what design a EU stealth 5gen plane would look like.. hmm..

[UCAS]

The TWR of the F-22 can be very superior, or it can be about equal to Rafale.

But its wing loading cannot. Nor can it's max AoA before wing stall (110deg for Rafale).

 

All about how many AMRAAMs will hit from outside 45km. Given that only 46% hit from 8-35km against flying imbeciles, that's a big gamble, especially now that new IR AAMs can shoot AMRAAMs down.

[Pilotasso]

The F-35 will be entirely capable of delivering those if the customer desires, and AGM-158/154 for the USAF/USN. So sure, direct comparison is misleading, until you run out of cruise missiles.

 

Most countries would run out of equipment and infra structures before missile stocks were impacted significantly. ;)

 

Unless your talking about WWIII that is.

[GGTharos]

They're reasonably matched in wing loading. How about you explain how a wing at 110 degrees AoA isn't in a stall first though.

 

But its wing loading cannot. Nor can it's max AoA before wing stall (110deg for Rafale).

 

All about how many AMRAAMs will hit from outside 45km. Given that only 46% hit from 8-35km against flying imbeciles, that's a big gamble, especially now that new IR AAMs can shoot AMRAAMs down.

[104th_Crunch]

In every A2A HUD footage there is, the target designator box shakes around the target as the computer tracks the target. In FC the box stays steady with target in the exact center the entire time the computer tracks.

 

GG, maybe something you could suggest to ED to make more realistic, or if someone from ED reads this. Such a simple thing to implement for realism.

[GGTharos]

I think there's so many factors that go into that ... definitely one of them will be RCS glinting, or whatever it is called ( I forget! :P ). There is also HuD updates rates etc ... we'll see, but I doubt you'll see it in FC3.

[aaron886]

Max alpha 110 degrees? :D

[mvsgas]

:doh:

Could we all agree that;

1) We don't know the performance numbers from any of this aircraft, we only know internet info.

2) That all of this aircraft seem to be incredibly agile, but we don't know and probably would never know which if better, we can only know which one we prefer individually.

3) On this specific video the Rafale seem to win.

4) That we do not know all the specifics on that particular video.

5) We don't know and probably will never know PK of any missiles nor electronic capabilities of any aircraft nor information of the kind, we can only form our opinion based on different information we get form the net, which we have no way of verifying it's level of reliability.

 

Anyone?

[Mr_Burns]

Why does the french HUD have english language - release stick.

 

And the hood looks a mess to me.

[UCAS]

They're reasonably matched in wing loading. How about you explain how a wing at 110 degrees AoA isn't in a stall first though.

The Rafale achieved 100+ degrees AoA in flight testing without using TVC from a stalled state like the F-22 (you knew well what I meant), which is far higher than the F-22 can achieve without TVC. And the F-22's wing loading is 25+% higher. Even on half fuel, it's still higher than a Rafale on full fuel.

 

I think we can all agree that the Rafale in the video scored a missile kill and a gun kill in the space of 2 minutes. Two baby seals clubbed.

Edited June 25, 2013 by UCAS

[GGTharos]

The Rafale achieved 100+ degrees AoA in flight testing without using TVC from a stalled state like the F-22 (you knew well what I meant), which is far higher than the F-22 can achieve without TVC. And the F-22's wing loading is 25+% higher. Even on half fuel, it's still higher than a Rafale on full fuel.

 

Both wing loadings are appear to be so low to begin with that it doesn't matter so much. As for doing a cobra (this is what you are describing), who the heck cares other than air-show fans? :D It was doable by pretty old planes, some of them american, and it doesn't mean much.

 

I think we can all agree that the Rafale in the video scored a missile kill and a gun kill in the space of 2 minutes. Two baby seals clubbed.

No, we can't - at least anyone who has a critical view of things can't. The missile isn't part of anything, it doesn't count - they could have just as well shot each other in the face pre-merge. What's the point?

The fight is called off without a guns kill being claimed, there's no indication of the trigger being pressed, and the pipper is never on the 22 long enough to claim a valid shot.

 

The fight went on for too long, so there is no clear superiority to be seen anywhere.