Business model behind this project?

[Havner]

Well the way I see it - I've effectively paid €40 for the Fw-190 - which I would have paid anyway.

 

Nate

 

And not only you'll have to wait a year for it but it will be only usable in DCS WWII, not in the whole DCS World :-/ Whatever that means now I wouldn't like to limit my options.

[Mango]

And not only you'll have to wait a year for it but it will be only usable in DCS WWII, not in the whole DCS World :-/ Whatever that means now I wouldn't like to limit my options.

 

I think this is incorrect. Wasn't it stated that:

 

1. We will receive keys for this aircraft for DCS World as well as DCS WWII

 

2. The Dora will be available to us as soon as it is released by ED, not when DCS WWII is finished

 

Let's try not to spread disinformation, please.

 

:book:

Edited September 17, 2013 by Mango

[Havner]

I think this is incorrect. Wasn't it stated that:

 

1. We will receive keys for this aircraft for DCS World as well as DCS WWII

 

2. The Dora will be available to us as soon as it is released by ED, not when DCS WWII is finished

 

Let's try not to spread disinformation, please.

 

:book:

 

Both of those are correct for $65+ and $85+ pledges. NOT $20-$40. And those are the ones we're talking about.

[Mango]

So Dora and Mustang will also be available @ $40? I thought we were only getting them at $65+ since they are ED products, not RRG.

[Havner]

So Dora and Mustang will also be available @ $40? I thought we were only getting them at $65+ since they are ED products, not RRG.

 

This is _exactly_ what I'm trying to establish here. From my understanding they will be available on $65+ and $85+ as full DCS modules (and available as soon as possible). But it has been mentioned that they will be also available as "payable" aircrafts you can choose for $20-$40 pledges. But those will be available on DCS WW2 release and only for DCS WW2. If that is not a case then there is no difference between $10 and $40 pledges.

 

I'm starting to repeat myself in several threads but nobody here seem to know the answer unfortunately :-(

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114011

[NineLine]

So for your sanity, I'll stay out of the sub-forum. :D

 

I certainly understand everyones passion for this hobby, and I dont want to chase anyone off, but ultimately we have to move forward, living in the past doesnt do anyone any good. While I truly believe this is a clean slate for this team, I also know that if they fumble this one its probably lights out, and I have to believe they know that too. Personally, no matter the opinions of anyone involved, it would be a shame to lose a developer that enjoys flight sims. So I put my money on the hopes of what could be.

[NineLine]

The P-51D and Dora are payware, you dont get them unless you buy them from ED, or as you said make a larger pledge. 65 and up... The P-51D and Dora will be the same aircraft/module for both World and WWII, cross compatible. If you buy for one you can use in the other.

 

There is a difference in the 10 and 40 pledges... 40 is more than 10 ;)

 

This is _exactly_ what I'm trying to establish here. From my understanding they will be available on $65+ and $85+ as full DCS modules (and available as soon as possible). But it has been mentioned that they will be also available as "payable" aircrafts you can choose for $20-$40 pledges. But those will be available on DCS WW2 release and only for DCS WW2. If that is not a case then there is no difference between $10 and $40 pledges.

 

I'm starting to repeat myself in several threads but nobody here seem to know the answer unfortunately :-(

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114011

[Havner]

There is a difference in the 10 and 40 pledges... 40 is more than 10 ;)

 

So basically the only "other" difference between those pledges was dependent on stretch goals that don't seem to be achievable now?

 

How will you explain this sentence then:

 

We are also adding DCS World licenses to kickstarter rewards. You will receive the P-51D and the FW.190D with DCS WWII; but if you select the appropriate reward, you will also receive those licenses for DCS World.

[Flying Penguin]

The P-51D and Dora are payware, you dont get them unless you buy them from ED, or as you said make a larger pledge. 65 and up... The P-51D and Dora will be the same aircraft/module for both World and WWII, cross compatible. If you buy for one you can use in the other.

 

Not quite....

 

Evening everyone!

 

 

 

FREE for everyone:

P-47

Spitfire

Bf.109K

 

Paid on release

P-51 (from DCS World)

FW-190D (from DCS World)

 

If you back at a $20 level, you can pick a P-51 or FW-190D.

 

If you back at a $40 level, you will have both.

 

If you already own a DCS World P-51 and/or FW-190, then obviously no one wants you to have to pay for anything twice.

 

If we reach stretch goals, then the story changes.

 

Free aircraft list will most likely not change.

 

Backing at $20 still gets you one of the larger variety of paid aircraft.

 

$40 or above still gets you ALL of the initial flyables.

 

None of the aircraft released in future updates are covered by any of this.

[NineLine]

Not quite....

 

Well apparently I am still confused as I thought you didnt get and of ED's aircraft until atleast $65...

 

Pledge $65 or more

 

6 backers

DCS World Tier 1. Everything at the $40 level, plus a digital copy of DCS World P-51D Mustang (on successful kickstarter completion).

 

 

Of course I guess I dont get the lower pledges mean when they say:

 

 

• Pledge $20 or more
   
  41 backers
  Everything at the previous level, plus a digital copy of one additional flyable aircraft of your choice.
   
  Estimated delivery: Sep 2014
  
  
• 
  

Specially if the 3 being released are free to all anyways... so ok.... I am confused still :)

[Flying Penguin]

Specially if the 3 being released are free to all anyways... so ok.... I am confused still :)

 

Well this is my take on it:

 

Ilya clarified this in one of his early posts (I can't be bothered to dig it out), but this is the breakdown of aircraft by pledge level, assuming you don't own any of them in DCSW beforehand:

 

$0-19

P-47D

Spitfire Mk Ix

Bf109K

 

$20-$29

P-47D

Spitfire Mk Ix

Bf109K

One extra (from P-51*, Dora*, achieved stretch goal flyables)

 

$30-$39

P-47D

Spitfire Mk Ix

Bf109K

Two extra (from P-51*, Dora*, achieved stretch goal flyables)

 

$40+

P-47D

Spitfire Mk Ix

Bf109K

P-51*

Dora*

Achieved stretch goal flyables

 

* P-51 and Dora at these levels are only licenced for DCS WWII

 

$100+ DCSW Pledge

P-47D

Spitfire Mk Ix

Bf109K

P-51 (Immediately and including use in DCSW)

Dora (On release of the module and including use in DCSW)

Achieved stretch goal flyables

 

Yes, the above ignores the $65 and $80 pledges, but it was a response to queries about the $10-$40 range...

 

I've yet to see convincing evidence to the contrary, although it does assume that a licence can be specifically WWII or DCSW only (even if it's not technically possible now, it could be implemented quite easily in the timeframe we are talking about).

 

I really want this to succeed (and have pledged to reflect that), but RRG aren't exactly covering themselves in glory with this Kickstarter...

[NineLine]

Makes sense I suppose... but guess it doesnt matter to me, I own the P-51, I will buy the Dora the minute it is released which I would have to believe would be before this is released, but who knows... so I am pledging for support of the project more than the free gifts :)

[Flying Penguin]

Makes sense I suppose... but guess it doesnt matter to me, I own the P-51, I will buy the Dora the minute it is released which I would have to believe would be before this is released, but who knows... so I am pledging for support of the project more than the free gifts :)

 

Amen to that....

[Vampyre]

Makes sense I suppose... but guess it doesnt matter to me, I own the P-51, I will buy the Dora the minute it is released which I would have to believe would be before this is released, but who knows... so I am pledging for support of the project more than the free gifts :)

 

Same here and I too threw my coin in to support the project. The gifts are nice but I just really want to see this succeed and hopefully the multiplayer will eventually be worked out.

[VanjaB]

If you dont have something nice to say, dont say anything at all...

 

Isnt that....a form of censorship?

[NineLine]

Isnt that....a form of censorship?

 

No its a form of common courtesy...

[Keyser]

Okay, I'm pretty sure this is how it is going to be, based on everything luthier has posted on the matter:

 

The three new WWII flyables will be free for anyone. If you pledge $20, you get either ED's P-51D at release of WWII or the Dora at release of WWII even if they are released for World by ED earlier than that. You can still copy folders and cross-compatibility will be maintained, the trade-off here is that you get the license later. If you pledge $30 or $40 (provided no stretch goals are met), you get essentially the same, i.e. both the P-51D and the Dora at release of WWII.

If you pledge more, say $65 or $85, you also get those modules, but you get them "on successful Kickstarter completion", that is on October 5th for the P-51D and for the Dora the day it is released. You pledge more, but you get the module sooner. Since there will be no WWII yet, you get them for World, but you can still copy the module folder into WWII later since they will be (like every module, according to luthier) cross-compatible.

 

 

No its a form of common courtesy...

 

Only if there's no threat of deletion or bans ;)

[NineLine]

 

 

Only if there's no threat of deletion or bans ;)

 

There is no threats of deletions or bans if there is common courtesy ;)

[MACADEMIC]

As the kickstarter got started we realized it was all wrong, since we were doing something for people new to flight sims, expecting an influx of people who have never flown a plane in their life. Now that we've realized that this project can only succeed if we work with the dedicated flight sim fans, we're redoing and scrapping everything to give you guys what you need.

 

Luthier,

 

Please allow me to comment on your above statement. It seems to me that your kickstarter campaign and business model (as far as we have learned about it) suffer from similar (unrealistic) outlooks, which endanger the entire project down the line. While the kickstarter will most likely be successful in reaching its primary goal of $100.000, I fear that your promise of making the game including three DCS level aircraft available free to everyone in about a years time will financially shipwreck this project.

 

Here's why. You mentioned that your intention is to kick the game into life 'with a bang' and provide you with a userbase large enough to sell additional content. But similar to the kickstarter, where you came to see that the overwhelming majority of people who pledge are already flight sim fans, not newcomers, you will find that this will also be the very users and customers you have once you release the game, map and the three airplanes, at least initially. Only that you have nothing left to sell to your core audience, hence no revenues.

 

Your core market of about 2000 flight sim enthusiasts doesn't have the expectation that a game has to be free, nor a map, nor DCS level airplanes. It's our hobby, we constantly invest in computers, monitors, flight sticks and software. It's normal. But to apply a F2P model (in the scope you have projected) to a high fidelity simulation environment is akin to financial suicide. F2P works well in easy action arcade environments, but for this you only need something that looks good and plays easy, certainly nothing as realistic and hard to master as DCS level airplanes. For those you need time, effort and dedication, as with any real airplane.

 

It is commendable that you attempt to bring more people to flight simulations, but please do it in a sustainable way. Use the support that is obvious from the core community to build something lasting, not something that will run out of money and fail. My suggestion is that you change what you can, which is the goals of the project (reward promises you can't change now). Use the kickstarter funds to create a Northern France and Southern England map, make one or two DCS level trainer aircraft (e.g. a Tiger Moth and/or a Bücker Jungmann) and release together as free for everyone. This is enough to provide newcomers with a taste of a realistic flying experience within the time period and will wet their appetite for more.

 

To at the same time stay true to the rewards promises, provide all backers above the $30 pledge level with digital copies of the DCS Mustang and the Dora to be used in WWII. Sometime after initial release, you can by and by introduce more airplanes, maps, campaigns as commercial products.

 

I know it would not be easy to go back on your inital goals and announcements, but I am positive that this community will much prefer an adjustment to realistic goals now while you can than experience your failure to deliver down the line due to excessive initial goals. I know what I'd rather back.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

 

MAC

[Bucic]

I certainly understand everyones passion for this hobby, and I dont want to chase anyone off, but ultimately we have to move forward, living in the past doesnt do anyone any good. While I truly believe this is a clean slate for this team, I also know that if they fumble this one its probably lights out, and I have to believe they know that too. Personally, no matter the opinions of anyone involved, it would be a shame to lose a developer that enjoys flight sims. So I put my money on the hopes of what could be.

Ditto!

 

Luthier,

 

...

 

MAC

I agree. The three DCS-level freebies got my attention right from the start. 2 of them should be maximum, and it should be the 2nd and 3rd most popular.

 

I was about to start a "What have you learned from the Il-2 CoD development?" but I was afraid it would turn into a flamewar. I would certainly like to see the RRG replying "Do less, but to a higher level of fidelity and polish".