Flight Dynamics 1.2.5. vs 1.2.6. something wrong?

[VanjaB]

Something very strange is going on with the Huey. I assume that everyone has noticed that the chopper seems to be behaving very differently in 1.2.6. compared to the previous patch.

 

Can someone explain what was changed, because Im having problems controling the damn thing after 1.2.6 landed.

 

First thing I noticed is that the power requirements to lift the bird off the ground have increased a lot, and by a lot at least 30-40%.

 

This is most easily tested by enabling the control scheme cheat by pressing ALT + ENTER and bringing the bird into the air in the freeflight quick mission. What is also noticable is that the craft requires a lot less rudder input for stable flight, which combined with the increased power requierments smells very fishy to me.

 

Can anyone comment on this?

[TurboHog]

Something very strange is going on with the Huey. I assume that everyone has noticed that the chopper seems to be behaving very differently in 1.2.6. compared to the previous patch.

 

Can someone explain what was changed, because Im having problems controling the damn thing after 1.2.6 landed.

 

First thing I noticed is that the power requirements to lift the bird off the ground have increased a lot, and by a lot at least 30-40%.

 

This is most easily tested by enabling the control scheme cheat by pressing ALT + ENTER and bringing the bird into the air in the freeflight quick mission. What is also noticable is that the craft requires a lot less rudder input for stable flight, which combined with the increased power requierments smells very fishy to me.

 

Can anyone comment on this?

 

1. Engine power has not been reduced. However collective control handle “rigging” is altered to better match real collective handle settings required throughout the engine power demand envelope. This is why you are seeing higher collective requirements during takeoff, for example. The engine torque and actual rotor blade collective angles are the same (possibly slightly different as there was some tuning of dynamics as well), but the cockpit handle positioning is what is updated.

 

As I just said in the bugs and problems thread about the wrong torque/speed relation: there is nothing wrong with power.

[VanjaB]

Ahh, ok thanks for clearing that up. But what about the rudder control and behaviour. Has that been tuned as well? It seems that the chopper needs a lot less rudder at takeoff hover and high speed.

 

At 130-140 knots level flight, neaerly max collective, in 1.2.5. you would need about half left rudder for forward flight. in 1.2.6 you hardly need any rudder at all...

[Flagrum]

Ahh, ok thanks for clearing that up. But what about the rudder control and behaviour. Has that been tuned as well? It seems that the chopper needs a lot less rudder at takeoff hover and high speed.

 

At 130-140 knots level flight, neaerly max collective, in 1.2.5. you would need about half left rudder for forward flight. in 1.2.6 you hardly need any rudder at all...

At higher speed the need for rudder input is - and was under 1.2.5 IIRC - minimal to non-existent ("weather fane effect").

[Nealius]

130-140kts? I thought Vne was 120......anything over 95 and the airframe vibrates like hell.

[TurboHog]

At higher speed the need for rudder input is - and was under 1.2.5 IIRC - minimal to non-existent ("weather fane effect").

 

No, actually it's a flaw in the FM.

 

"In the real thing the right pedal is pressed in about 1.5 - 2 inches at speeds of 80 – 90 knots, whereas in our model the pedals are almost neutral."

 

- How I flew a Huey in Arizona by PilotMi8

[Flagrum]

No, actually it's a flaw in the FM.

 

"In the real thing the right pedal is pressed in about 1.5 - 2 inches at speeds of 80 – 90 knots, whereas in our model the pedals are almost neutral."

 

- How I flew a Huey in Arizona by PilotMi8

Allright, I stand corrected. But that is still something quit different than what Vanja described.

[jay43]

There is definetly summit not right.

 

I think there is to much delay in the controls, you check for yourselves but in F2 view move the collective and watch how slowly the swash plates respond to your inputs same applies to the cyclic and pedals they just seem to me to be lagging behind my inputs a bit.

[Lib]

There is definetly summit not right.

 

I think there is to much delay in the controls, you check for yourselves but in F2 view move the collective and watch how slowly the swash plates respond to your inputs same applies to the cyclic and pedals they just seem to me to be lagging behind my inputs a bit.

 

Exactly the same here, and more with the collective ! You move your axis and in cockpit it slowwwly moves. That 's very anoying, this make a yoyo in flight, plus the fact that just moving my collective of 1/2mm and i take 500 ft/min of vertical speed.

So response is to slow and movements on axis are overmodeled...

And curves don't change anything...

[PeroperoDokkiri]

Guys make sure You have "slider" unchecked in axis tune option, and Hydraulic System is ON (next to force trim switch between pilots). I dont have any delay and finally can control the helicopter without full sized long stick controlls. I am using tm top gun afterburner 2.

[ARM505]

Does the 'slider' check option affect input speed somehow? What does it actually do? I check it if the control is a 'slider' (ie not spring loaded to centre?) but there seems to be no practical difference that I know of.

[Loz]

There is definetly summit not right.

 

I think there is to much delay in the controls, you check for yourselves but in F2 view move the collective and watch how slowly the swash plates respond to your inputs same applies to the cyclic and pedals they just seem to me to be lagging behind my inputs a bit.

 

Not what I'm seeing. Mine are responding in unison with the controls.

 

(Don't see that having Hyds on or off would make a difference to the movement though.)

[PeroperoDokkiri]

Does the 'slider' check option affect input speed somehow? What does it actually do? I check it if the control is a 'slider' (ie not spring loaded to centre?) but there seems to be no practical difference that I know of.

 

I don't know what's the tehnology behind this option, but i had it checked on all my axis before 126 path and cyclic imputs were somehow easier to make even with no saturation. Now with 126 you can clearly see especially with collective that it's movement is delayed and somehow dampered. I use it on rudder because I have two axis pedals from logitech driving force pro, and when i use option to report them as single axis left pedal imput "shakes", with slider option that distortion is reduced.

EDIT: how about an option to set separate axis for each rudder pedal?

Edited September 19, 2013 by Samek

[VanjaB]

I don't know what's the tehnology behind this option, but i had it checked on all my axis before 126 path and cyclic imputs were somehow easier to make even with no saturation. Now with 126 you can clearly see especially with collective that it's movement is delayed and somehow dampered. I use it on rudder because I have two axis pedals from logitech driving force pro, and when i use option to report them as single axis left pedal imput "shakes", with slider option that distortion is reduced.

EDIT: how about an option to set separate axis for each rudder pedal?

 

You can do that? I mean use driving pedals for rudder inputs? How do you do that?

Edited September 19, 2013 by VanjaB

[lorenzoj]

I also found that for me the control and responsiveness seemed noticeably improved with the latest update

[TurboHog]

I also found that for me the control and responsiveness seemed noticeably improved with the latest update

 

The kick to the right upon picking her up during FF to Hover transition is perfectly manageable now. Even if you pull the nose up and/or you increase collective too late/sudden.

[newbie2k]

After some weeks, I finally found the time to fly a little bit yesterday an to test 1.2.6. I find that the Huey is a very stable plattform now, but I'm wondering myself if it isn't too stable. For example: I was in a perfect hover in ground effect without doing much cyclic input. Just very minor corrections. Recalling the previous versions, there was much more input needed to hold a stable hover. The same with transitioning into forward flight.

 

Is this how the real thing behaves? Because months ago, the Huey was already said to be a pretty good simulation with a near-to-reality flight model. What about the flight model now? Is it even more close to reality or is that the result of all the complains about the "too hard to fly flight model with too much VRS and so on" from all the guys who don't want to practice? ;-)

 

Another thing seems to be an increased durability. I tested some very very very hard landings and not even the skids broke. Could that be?

[PeroperoDokkiri]

You can do that? I mean use driving pedals for rudder inputs? How do you do that?

 

In logitech profiler check "report combined pedals" or "combined axis", or whatever it's called. It makes DCS recognize otherwise two axis pedals into single axis one.

 

Here is a quote from rl Huey pilot about this module posted over Hovercontrol forums:

 

"If you are going for realism as far as flight models nothing comes as close as DODO man. DCS Huey is fun but does not fly like the real Huey. Extremely too twitchy and hard to fly. The lateral roll is way off. The real Huey is very stable and really easy to fly compared to say a Jetranger. My other main issue is that real helicopters don't settle with power nearly as easy as they have them do in DCS. Sometimes it's actually hard to demonstrate settling with power for check rides and such. It's mostly a high hot thing coming in somewhere heavy, at a high altitude a little too fast and you misjudge the wind, that's when it will get you, on 90% of steep approaches you'll never even come close unless you are shooting it in a 8+ knot tail wind. If you wanted to set the controls as real as possible in DCS you'd play game mode, with sensitivities turned way down and then it begins to get a little closer.

 

On a good note, DCS is great and the rotor RPM management is amazing, like cavscout said. The translational lift is also a great feature, I like the shake and sounds are amazing. The cockpit layout and graphics are great as well. The startup is close enough for a sim and getting to shoot things is always a plus : )

 

If you like one sim over the next that's great but to say its because it's more realistic isn't necessarily true. I fly DCS, FSX, and have been loving X-plane lately again I get into kicks. The perfect sim would incorporate features from all three : ) "

 

I made the most interesting part bold. My reply was, this module was made with full sized long stick to be used as collective. In Helicopter Total Realism by Fred Naar You have an option to insert stick lenght so the program can calculate sensitivity settings for given cyclic. We could actually use this option in DCS, I am getting G940 so I can mod it into a long stick, I am wondering gow it's gonna work. Right now I have cyclic axis saturated to 90 and it works ok for my stock Top Gun Afterburner II with removed cenering spring (maybe a lil bit difficult in actual forward flight, helicopter rolls left and right too much for me).

[VanjaB]

In logitech profiler check "report combined pedals" or "combined axis", or whatever it's called. It makes DCS recognize otherwise two axis pedals into single axis one.

 

Here is a quote from rl Huey pilot about this module posted over Hovercontrol forums:

 

"If you are going for realism as far as flight models nothing comes as close as DODO man. DCS Huey is fun but does not fly like the real Huey. Extremely too twitchy and hard to fly. The lateral roll is way off. The real Huey is very stable and really easy to fly compared to say a Jetranger. My other main issue is that real helicopters don't settle with power nearly as easy as they have them do in DCS. Sometimes it's actually hard to demonstrate settling with power for check rides and such. It's mostly a high hot thing coming in somewhere heavy, at a high altitude a little too fast and you misjudge the wind, that's when it will get you, on 90% of steep approaches you'll never even come close unless you are shooting it in a 8+ knot tail wind. If you wanted to set the controls as real as possible in DCS you'd play game mode, with sensitivities turned way down and then it begins to get a little closer.

 

On a good note, DCS is great and the rotor RPM management is amazing, like cavscout said. The translational lift is also a great feature, I like the shake and sounds are amazing. The cockpit layout and graphics are great as well. The startup is close enough for a sim and getting to shoot things is always a plus : )

 

If you like one sim over the next that's great but to say its because it's more realistic isn't necessarily true. I fly DCS, FSX, and have been loving X-plane lately again I get into kicks. The perfect sim would incorporate features from all three : ) "

 

I made the most interesting part bold. My reply was, this module was made with full sized long stick to be used as collective. In Helicopter Total Realism by Fred Naar You have an option to insert stick lenght so the program can calculate sensitivity settings for given cyclic. We could actually use this option in DCS, I am getting G940 so I can mod it into a long stick, I am wondering gow it's gonna work. Right now I have cyclic axis saturated to 90 and it works ok for my stock Top Gun Afterburner II with removed cenering spring (maybe a lil bit difficult in actual forward flight, helicopter rolls left and right too much for me).

 

Very interesting read Samek, I wonder if we could get a few other pilots to comment on the VRS and stability issues.

[newbie2k]

"If you are going for realism as far as flight models nothing comes as close as DODO man. DCS Huey is fun but does not fly like the real Huey. Extremely too twitchy and hard to fly. The lateral roll is way off. The real Huey is very stable and really easy to fly compared to say a Jetranger.

 

Is he talking about the DODO 206 for FSX? If so, than that guy is somehow contradictory. Because the DODO 206 is actually very easy to fly. According to the statement, it would be harder to fly the DODO than the DCS Huey, but the DODO's flight model lacks of so many things as lateral roll and drift, only to mention two.

 

But what do I know, I am not a pilot, so it's just my personal feeling about things :music_whistling:

[VanjaB]

Is he talking about the DODO 206 for FSX? If so, than that guy is somehow contradictory. Because the DODO 206 is actually very easy to fly. According to the statement, it would be harder to fly the DODO than the DCS Huey, but the DODO's flight model lacks of so many things as lateral roll and drift, only to mention two.

 

But what do I know, I am not a pilot, so it's just my personal feeling about things :music_whistling:

 

He isnt contradictory, his point was actually that the DCS: Huey should be much easier to control and fly then it actually is. I have no idea when that post was made, maybe he was talking about a very early build of the Huey, and the other thing to consider is the average stick length.

 

Our joysticks are at most 1/3 of the length of the real thing, which adds to the difficulty considerably, that is if the Sim doesnt take that into account.

 

Someone @ Belsimtek should really pipe in about that.

Edited September 24, 2013 by VanjaB

[TurboHog]

He isnt contradictory, his point was actually that the DCS: Huey should be much easier to control and fly then it actually is. I have no idea when that post was made, maybe he was talking about a very early build of the Huey, and the other thing to consider is the average stick length.

 

Our joysticks are at most 1/3 of the length of the real thing, which adds to the difficulty considerably, that is if the Sim doesnt take that into account.

 

Someone Belsimtek should really pipe in about that.

 

In addition to that a real pilot told me that you miss a very important sense of movement when you're focused on a (relatively small) screen.

[PeroperoDokkiri]

He isnt contradictory, his point was actually that the DCS: Huey should be much easier to control and fly then it actually is. I have no idea when that post was made, maybe he was talking about a very early build of the Huey, and the other thing to consider is the average stick length.

 

Our joysticks are at most 1/3 of the length of the real thing, which adds to the difficulty considerably, that is if the Sim doesnt take that into account.

 

Someone @ Belsimtek should really pipe in about that.

I'll just quote.. myself this time;)

" In Helicopter Total Realism for FSX by Fred Naar You have an option to insert stick lenght so the program can calculate sensitivity settings for given cyclic. We could actually use this option in DCS, I am getting G940 so I can mod it into a long stick, I am wondering gow it's gonna work. Right now I have cyclic axis saturated to 90 and it works ok for my stock Top Gun Afterburner II with removed cenering spring (maybe a lil bit difficult in actual forward flight, helicopter rolls left and right too much for me)."

 

If such calculator is too much to ask, simple option presets "standard" (stock stick) and "full sized" (moded full length stick) would do the trick followed bo minor fine tuning using saturation options for cyclic axis.

[Nealius]

Is 'saturation' equivalent to sensitivity? Ever since these newer sims have come out I have wanted to tweak the sensitivity of my stick, but can't find anything labeled 'sensitivity' like in FSX or other sims.

[PeroperoDokkiri]

Saturation cuts off edges of virtual joystick movement, so it is used with rest of the imput. In other words if default 1 cm movement of rl joystick= 5cm in game, You can make it 1:2, or even 1:1 but You wont be able to move virtual joystick all the way up/ down/ left/ right. In FSX You don't need much adjustments, I believe there is something like "sensitivity" settings there, You need it to be 100% sensit. ,0%deadzone, and 100% realistic for helicopters. Then download Helicopter Total Realsim and then find approprate profile for Your helicopter to be loaded with HTR.