Decent mid range joystick

[stokka]

Logitech 3D is garbage for precision. Unacceptable for competitive dogfighting. That goes for damn-near all Logitech joysticks, although I've been told that their most expensive one was okay (but they're no longer producing that, and it was super-expensive anyway).

 

Unfortunately, there isn't a mass-produced simming joystick in the world that was made by a hardcore simmer, or by anyone with an in-depth understanding of hardcore simming & real aviation. For this reason, there are no really good simming joysticks commercially available, unless you're lucky enough to have gotten one of the limited-production ones which pop up from time to time from a small shop (invariably, I think, the basements of serious-simmers who are handy with tools). So the idea is to get the joystick which sucks the least, more than trying to find one that's good.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm mostly looking for something that will work better than what I have, but not be a waste of money, I would rather not buy a stick just to find out, for a few dollars more I could have got one with less deadzone, or better features.

[Echo38]

I'd recommend the T.16000M, then, with the caveat that it's got its share of bullcrap. Hollywoodvillain and Sokol1 have (between the two of them) fairly thoroughly summed up its good and bad points. Overall, I can't think of a better choice for under $100, unless you place a higher priority on having a decent amount of buttons than you do on having a decent degree of precision. My gunnery accuracy figure with the T.16000M was ~three times my gunnery with the X52. (Again, I've never used the X52 Pro, just the X52, so perhaps the Pro outdoes the T.16000M? Dunno.)

Edited September 28, 2013 by Echo38

[stokka]

I'd recommend the T.16000M, then, with the caveat that it's got its share of bullcrap. Hollywoodvillain and Sokol1 have (between the two of them) fairly thoroughly summed up its good and bad points. Overall, I can't think of a better choice for under $100, unless you place a higher priority on having a decent amount of buttons than you do on having a decent degree of precision. My gunnery accuracy figure with the T.16000M was three times my gunnery figure with the X52. (Again, I've never used the X52 Pro, just the X52, so perhaps the Pro outdoes the T.16000M? Dunno.)

 

Awesome, thank you so much for the info, on a side note, the community here is awesome, thank you all for your input.

[otto]

I can advice you as a thrustmaster flight stick x user that you should go for a thrustmaster joystick : T.16000m, warthog, flight stick x hotas.

The 52 pro is to expensive to replace in case of wear and tear.I would go for a T16000m with a separate throttle if possible.

I heard the microsoft sidewinder ffb i also a good joystick.

Edited September 28, 2013 by otto

[hollywoodvillain]

T16.000M is good but have some drawbacks (like any stick have):

 

6 base buttons on right side of stick (for use of left hand people) is almost useless due placement (inverse for left hand people).

Cheap potentiometers in rudder and throttle, in mine rudder pot start spike with ~8 mount of moderated use.

"Heavy" center spring (good for ones/bad for others).

End course deadzone: the X,Y HALL sensor stop reading before joystick handle reach your physical course (# ~5/10%). In game you reach 100% of elevator course thinking still under 90/95%...

 

For DIY oriented user all this above is easy to improve.

 

Sokol_Br

 

I dont seem to have the problem with the stick reading 100% before the end of travel, but i do agree with the throttle and rudder being cheap. I use rudder pedals and a separate throttle (CH is nice) so this isn't a factor for me, however the OP is probably looking for a single solution, in which case it might be a problem. Also separate throttle makes up somewhat for the lack of buttons. In the end though if you're prepared to shell out the money for an x52 I would still recommend T.16000m and get a separate throttle. And I have the PRO x52 and it doesnt fair much better...

Edited September 28, 2013 by hollywoodvillain

[Echo38]

I dont seem to have the problem with the stick reading 100% before the end of travel

 

Are you certain? Most of the T.16000M users I spoke with thought that they didn't have the problem, until I had them carefully test it. It was there; they just didn't notice it until I asked them to do the slow & precise test. The exact percentage of outer dead zone varied from individual stick to stick, but on mine it's 12.5 mm rear (and that's where you least want one!), 8 mm front, etc. I suppose it's possible, since the amount varies, that you got super-lucky and yours doesn't have the problem, but Thrustmaster tech support told me after the second replacement that it was a feature and not a defect (ha!), which would indicate that they all have it. At any rate, I've owned three different T.16000M sticks and they've all had the problem to varying degrees, and I've known about half a dozen other VFPs who had the T.16000M and they all had the problem as well.

 

It's still a good joystick, relatively speaking (which is why I recommend it--unfortunately, there isn't a better stick on the market for under $400, AFAIK), and it's approximately as good as the $100+ CH Fighterstick. They each have different problems, but are fairly equal in overall abilities (button count aside), despite the T.16000M being half the price. But be aware that this outer-edge dead zone (especially the one in the back) can hurt you even if you aren't aware of it. I do prefer the T.16000M over the Fighterstick, but I do notice that I have a harder time with stall fighting with the T.16000M because of the shorter throw. On the upside, the shorter throw's easier on your wrist, and the center precision is better on the T.16000M. Also, the CH spring action is ridiculous, and the Fighterstick also has the outer-edge deadzone problem (albeit with smaller percentages).

 

I use rudder pedals and a separate throttle (CH is nice)

 

I recommend avoiding CH pedals. Much too close together for a fighter. See here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1793752&postcount=9

Edited September 28, 2013 by Echo38

[hollywoodvillain]

Are you certain? Most of the T.16000M users I spoke with thought that they didn't have the problem, until I had them carefully test it. It was there; they just didn't notice it until I asked them to do the slow & precise test. The exact percentage of outer dead zone varied from individual stick to stick, but on mine it's 12.5 mm rear (and that's where you least want one!), 8 mm front, etc. I suppose it's possible, since the amount varies, that you got super-lucky and yours doesn't have the problem, but Thrustmaster tech support told me after the second replacement that it was a feature and not a defect (ha!), which would indicate that they all have it. At any rate, I've owned three different T.16000M sticks and they've all had the problem to varying degrees, and I've known about half a dozen other VFPs who had the T.16000M and they all had the problem as well.

 

It's still a good joystick, relatively speaking (which is why I recommend it--unfortunately, there isn't a better stick on the market for under $400, AFAIK), and it's approximately as good as the $100+ CH Fighterstick. They each have different problems, but are fairly equal in overall abilities (button count aside), despite the T.16000M being half the price. But be aware that this outer-edge dead zone (especially the one in the back) can hurt you even if you aren't aware of it. I do prefer the T.16000M over the Fighterstick, but I do notice that I have a harder time with stall fighting with the T.16000M because of the shorter throw. On the upside, the shorter throw's easier on your wrist, and the center precision is better on the T.16000M. Also, the CH spring action is ridiculous, and the Fighterstick also has the outer-edge deadzone problem (albeit with smaller percentages).

 

 

 

I recommend avoiding CH pedals. Much too close together for a fighter. See here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1793752&postcount=9

 

 

I have tested today and can 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt verify I don't have this issue. However you are correct, I neglected to mention I have disassembled and reassembled the joystick several times for research and review purposes. Taking it apart today (in an effort to research your problem) I noticed the 4 screws holding the base down I had left loose. Stupid me (have a bad habit of taking things apart when I've had wayyy too much Jim Beam), however, incredibly, by tightening these 4 screws, I was able to duplicate your exact same problem! ( I experimented and verified the issue several times) The deal is that they designed the sensor, which is on the opposite side of the base, to be too close to the magnet on the bottom of the stick, and by loosening the screws on the base the spring pushes the base and therefore the sensor further away. So, the poor mans solution is to simply remove the bottom cover, and loosen the four screws on the base plate until it reads correctly in the test panel. This might be a problem though as it might cause more wear on the plastic studs, but a trip today to the hardware store getting 1/4in longer screws I was able to eliminate this issue( although now were talking about borderline modding and that's not the OP's intent, however it's an extremely easy fix.) Anyway here's a pic of what I'm talking about, replace those screws with same type but 1/4 in longer (one at a time so you dont release the spring tension), and voila! Make sure to recalibrate.

 

 

 

As for CH, I should've been more clear, I only use the CH throttle, never tried the pedals, so thanks for the advice to stay away from them.

Edited September 28, 2013 by hollywoodvillain

[Cali]

I use CH pedals and had used them for over 10 years. I'm 6'2" 200 pounds and I don't have a problem with them, maybe because I'm use to them. It all depends on the user if they like things are not.

[Echo38]

Taking it apart today (in an effort to research your problem) I noticed the 4 screws holding the base down I had left loose. Stupid me (have a bad habit of taking things apart when I've had wayyy too much Jim Beam), however, incredibly, by tightening these 4 screws, I was able to duplicate your exact same problem! ( I experimented and verified the issue several times) The deal is that they designed the sensor, which is on the opposite side of the base, to be too close to the magnet on the bottom of the stick, and by loosening the screws on the base the spring pushes the base and therefore the sensor further away. So, the poor mans solution is to simply remove the bottom cover, and loosen the four screws on the base plate until it reads correctly in the test panel. This might be a problem though as it might cause more wear on the plastic studs, but a trip today to the hardware store getting 1/4in longer screws I was able to eliminate this issue( although now were talking about borderline modding and that's not the OP's intent, however it's an extremely easy fix.) Anyway here's a pic of what I'm talking about, replace those screws with same type but 1/4 in longer (one at a time so you dont release the spring tension), and voila! Make sure to recalibrate.

 

Very cool! I've always suspected that there might be a kludgy solution, but I'm not handy with tools & small parts, so I never opened it up myself. Thanks for the tip.

 

I use CH pedals and had used them for over 10 years. I'm 6'2" 200 pounds and I don't have a problem with them, maybe because I'm use to them. It all depends on the user if they like things are not.

 

You may think you don't have a problem with them, but the mathematical, physical fact is that you're doing worse with them than you would with wider-set pedals, all else equal. I've already explained why, and I'm not going to argue this further. I'm doing you a favor by pointing this out; it's your problem if you dismiss it, not mine.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Echo38

[Lao Fei Mao]

I'm a X52PRO user, and from the day one I bought it, I was unhappy with the stickiness and the friction on X,Y axis. At the beginning, I thought it must be caused by the relative move between the metal disk and the rim of the plastic ring. So I lubricated both of them, but got no obvious effect. So I deduce the stickiness might come from the metal disk hole movement between the metal stick rod, then I lubricated the rod, you know what, it became even worse, too much stickiness added, so frustrated me and pissed off me. I even thought about refunding.

But I really like the X52 PRO's buttons layout, so finally I decided to take a deep study at what the hell it's going on, step by step, I dismantled the stick and cleaned all the lube I had put, I used the LCD cleansing liquid and a piece of microfiber cleaning fabric to rub them. Then I carefully assembled all the parts back, tried to move the stick back and forward, left and right....

A miracle happened, it had never been so smooth in my hand, no stickiness, precise

positioning becomes much easier in game.

So my suggestion is that if you are using a X52PRO and felt stickiness things, don't lubricate the rod and the disk hole, on the contrary they should be kept clean and dry, then X52PRO would run like a charm.

[Sokol1_br]

tightening these 4 screws, I was able to duplicate your exact same problem!

 

Thanks for this type.

 

My T.16000M is already disassembled - I'm changing the buttons on the right side to grip.

I was thinking in restrict the green acrilic square - but your solution is more easy and "elegant". :smilewink:

 

For rudder I have a old "brainless" (gameport) Tm RCS that I hook for T.1600M rudder axis to replace the (bad) twist rudder.

 

Sokol1

Edited September 29, 2013 by Sokol1_br

[Bucic]

Thanks for this type.

 

My T.16000M is already disassembled - I'm changing the buttons on the right side to grip.

I was thinking in restrict the green acrilic square - but your solution is more easy and "elegant". :smilewink:

 

For rudder I have a old "brainless" (gameport) Tm RCS that I hook for T.1600M rudder axis to replace the (bad) twist rudder.

 

Sokol1

I've just removed the centering spring. It's better now except that the whole gimbal falls apart now :)

Have you made any mods to the stick? I mean both the spring/mechanism and the magnet placement.

[Sokol1_br]

Due the kind o sensor used, a "3D" one, you can't change the magnet position.

 

I see some mod that add ball bearings to gimbal axis, or even a new gimbal aluminum in CNC, what (IMO) dont worth cost/benefit unless you have machines to do this.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2269-thrustmaster-t16000m-chrezmernaya-zhestkost-neskolko-voproso/

Edited September 22, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[Bucic]

Thanks.

 

I have noticed that after removing the spring the sensor does not pick up position within a 5 degree cone at=round the center. But it's not a keeper anyway.

[Scytale]

Hi all,

 

This is my first post as well - I was going to make a new thread but realized that this one was essentially what I'm after. If it's more appropriate to make a new thread I understand, just let me know.

 

I recently moved and do not have my old equipment with me. There wasn't much anyway, but as my interest in DCS hasn't diminished in the last year I've flown in it, I would like to ramp up my investment in it. Due to budget and space constraints I really can't afford a pedal setup beyond my joystick, and I also can't afford a TM Warthog, though it is an ultimate goal of mine, two years down the track.

 

I previously had a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, and I used a TrackIR 5 a friend lent me. I was reasonably happy with the Logitech, but I want something now with (a) more buttons, and (b) a separate throttle. I'm left-handed but I want to learn to use joysticks right-handed.

 

So here are my constraints:

(a) Has twist

(b) Has enough buttons that I could operate A-10C HOTAS, or very nearly so. I certainly couldn't do that before.

© Is less than USD $200, and the cheaper the better since my budget is quite limited.

(d) I'm not a big fan of DIY unless it's super simple.

 

Other remarks:

I am not quite as invested in precision flying as in button-functionality.

Dual throttle would be nice but not essential, even though I'll be flying the A-10C mostly.

Although I own the UH-1H, I don't want to take that on too eagerly because I know pedals will make my life a lot easier. But I still want twist for other jets.

This stick should last me about 2 years.

Not long after buying this I will procure a TrackIR5 with proclip. Once you've trackedIR, you can't go back. My computer is probably not capable of handling the Rift when it comes out, so I would consider the TrackIR as lasting me 2 years. That's another discussion though.

 

The options I thought I had:

I was seriously just tossing up between the X-52 Pro and the X-55. I see nearly universal positivity regarding the X-52 Pro, and mixed comments about the X-55, mostly due to quality control issues. I see from other comments that the TM 16000 comes very highly recommended, which surprised me. If I bought it along with a dedicated throttle (say, CH), could it fill my needs?

 

What do you think? X-52 Pro, X-55, or TM16000 with a dedicated joystick? Or some other option I've stupidly neglected to consider?

 

Thanks,

Scytale

[Sokol1_br]

T16k-M is a low cost option (<100$), has many buttons (same number of CH Fighterstick) but not in practical placement - 6 are more awkward to use than the keyboard.

For you his only advantage is the ambidextrous grip.

 

On your budget get X-52 or X-55, is more "A-10". :joystick:

 

>90%* of complains about X-55 is due his programming software, what you can live without.

 

* From remaining 10% a good part is due "not be a 200$ HOTAS Warthog". :megalol:

Edited September 23, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[Scytale]

T16k-M is a low cost option (<100$), has many buttons (same number of CH Fighterstick) but not in practical placement - 6 are more awkward to use than the keyboard.

For you his only advantage is the ambidextrous grip.

 

On your budget get X-52 or X-55, is more "A-10". :joystick:

 

>90%* of complains about X-55 is due his programming software, what you can live without.

 

* From remaining 10% a good part is due "not be a 200$ HOTAS Warthog". :megalol:

 

I find this very encouraging and a good reason to shell out on the X-55, which I've kind of been looking for an excuse to do. As for the software, I'm a glutton for punishment by unintuitive interface so that won't be an issue for me.

 

Uh... new or used? I can get a used X-55 for the price of a new X-52 Pro on amazon, but I'm not always sure if I trust used, especially for products like these...

[Bucic]

A warning regarding T.16000M. It has extremely low resolution for rudder and throttle axes. 256! Even Logitech cheapos have 1024 and this should tell you something. When you try to move the rudder in DCS it looks as if you're using a multi-position switch.

[kreisch]

If you buy the x55 - keep in mind that it doesnt have a two stage trigger.... So firing your 30mm is a bit strange cause you will need another Button.

[Kozmyk]

My solution to low cost HOTAS'ing is to combine the T16000m with the throttle quadrant from my old HOTAS X, using the Rocker Paddle on the HOTAS for rudder.

True, the resolution for the HOTAS X throttle and yaw is still 256 but the mechanical throw is larger so you can get more from your 256 (which is still less than 1/2% per step btw - 0.39) [Albedo anybody? :music_whistling:]

 

The T16000m's selling point is the Hall Effect sensor being the same as in the Warthog.

 

btw Posts from some time ago (circa 2013) have suggested that peripheral resolution isn't what it should be on the T16000m.

Mine is about a year old now and gives steps of 4 (what it should be) right up to the edge and around the centre, all over in fact; as tested using various Joystick Utilities.

[Scytale]

Hrmmm I could come around to the T16000m. I don't think the peripheral resolution will be a real problem for me, just a minor annoyance at worst.

 

I see I can essentially get a T16000m + CH throttle for around the same price as an X-52 pro. It seems to me that the 16000m's main advantages are:

(a) Reliability

(b) Precision (at least in stick handling)

© Durability

(d) Cheapness

With its main cons being

(b) Awkward button placement

© (minor) peripheral resolution issues

 

I dunno you guys, those are a lot of pros, but then if I get a CH throttle that takes away advantage (d) and increases the layout complexity? Precision as I said isn't overly important to me, so I could drop advantage (a) as well, but... it seems like I could get a good balance, and have the buttons to my heart's desire in the X52-pro.

 

 

That two-stage trigger - this just tells to my ignorance, but I wasn't under the impression it was essential for operating the 30mm?

 

edit: Oh I see, the first stage is for enabling PAC. I would otherwise have just kept it on (in a show of poor discipline!) if that's what I think it is. That's actually worth thinking about.

re-edit: I see that wouldn't have been possible. I'll hit up the existing threads when the time comes, if I don't get a 2-stage trigger.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Scytale

[GeorgeLKMT]

That two-stage trigger - this just tells to my ignorance, but I wasn't under the impression it was essential for operating the 30mm?

 

edit: Oh I see, the first stage is for enabling PAC. I would otherwise have just kept it on (in a show of poor discipline!) if that's what I think it is. That's actually worth thinking about.

 

First stage is stabilization, second fires the gun (while keeping it stable). Theoreticaly you can do without the first stage and fire the gun right away, but in practice you'll probably want to place the pipper on the target, keep it there for a while while closing in and then fire. But you don't need a dual stage trigger for that, just two buttons ;)

 

I have T16000 + CH combo and I like it. It lacks buttons in comparison to Warthog or CH Stick, but it's waaay cheaper and has twist stick, so it's a great option when you don't wanna spend too much. Only thing I have with the T16000 is that it wiggles in neutral position a little bit, so I have to set up a deadzone (although I don't know how other joys are and if every T16000 is like that... or it's just mine showing the age).

Edited September 24, 2015 by GeorgeLKMT

[Sokol1_br]

I see I can essentially get a T16000m + CH throttle for around the same price as an X-52 pro. It seems to me that the 16000m's main advantages are:

 

 

(a) Reliability <<< CH advantage

(b) Precision (at least in stick handling) <<< T16k-M advantage

© Durability <<< CH advantage

(d) Cheapness <<< T16k-m advantage

 

You can improve the T16k-M usability done some mod, moving some of the right (or left) side base buttons to handle (easy to do) and maybe implement a second stage on trigger, is not difficult, but laborious.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_08_2015/post-683-0-56808800-1439970591.jpg

Edited September 24, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[Scytale]

Thanks for those clarifications. I see the attraction of using a CH throttle + T16000m, but it's looking to me like the X-52Pro will do the task I'm after a little more faithfully. The X-55 is tempting, but that lack of two-stage trigger, the driver software (which I'm starting to see is a bigger problem than merely unintuitive), the possible requirement of a powered USB hub (impractical for my setup, I have lowly laptop) and the doubts I hear regarding quality of manufacture... not to mention the increased cost - I suspect the 52's a safer, more solid option.

 

Thanks again everyone, this has been a very fruitful discussion.

[Kozmyk]

This is what I did to improve the utility of my T16000m

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=146102