DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[Friedrich-4B]

Wouldn't it be cool to have all those options available at some point in it's development, switchable in the armaments screen of the mission planner.

 

It would probably be possible to select either wing type, any boost pressure/fuel octane combination, and of course any machine gun loadout.

 

What do you think, a useful way of maximising the possibilities with all modelled airframes? I guess the only restriction would be the time available to implement such goodies at ED.

 

But then, I'm greedy cuz I'd like to see the Mk1 Spitfire onwards modelled here, along with every mark of Bf-109, Fw-190, P-51, Hurricane, F/A-18...

 

Phew! It would take a while to develop every option for the Spitfire IX alone - but why not? Other options could include the enlarged, pointed rudder, Merlin 70 series (H.F Mk. IX), Packard Merlin 266 (including the later, slightly bulged upper engine cowling) etc.

 

And after the Spitfire IX and Thunderbolt? Roll on the Hawker Tempest V! :pilotfly:

[flare2000x]

Don't forget clipped wings, bubble canopy, extra fuselage fuel tank, the list goes on and on and on. The Spitfire was one of, if not the most, adaptable aircraft that could be used for many different roles in all kinds of configurations. No wonder it was produced for ten years! I'm really happy that ED (and VEAO) are doing a Spitfire, it is my favourite plane of all time! :)

 

flare

[Kurfürst]

Or how about the Mark V, the most important Spitfire variant of the war and still the most numerous at the start of 1944.

 

But quite frankly, I would rather buy a Yak 3 or Tempest instead of the umpteenth Spitfire or 109 variant. Dreaming is free, but It all cost a lot of work and money.

[Friedrich-4B]

Or how about the Mark V, the most important Spitfire variant of the war and still the most numerous at the start of 1944.

 

Indeed the Spitfire V could be considered; counting those in frontline service in the Mediterranean, S.E Asia and with the RAAF and the USSR, it was the most numerous variant still in service in early 1944, albeit it was being rapidly superseded by VIIIs and IXs.

 

In 2 TAF not so much; eg: strength returns, 15 November 1943 show only 5 Spitfire V squadrons in operational, frontline service vs 20 Spitfire IX

 

 

There were numerous 2 TAF squadrons, either in training or resting and re-equipping on rear-echelon airfields, that were still equipped with the MK V, but they hardly count as being fully operational or taking part in frontline duties, unless one wishes to be churlish.

 

As it is, by D-Day the Spitfire L.F. Mk IX was by far the predominant variant in 2 TAF and ADGB service.

 

But quite frankly, I would rather buy a Yak 3 or Tempest instead of the umpteenth Spitfire or 109 variant. Dreaming is free, but It all cost a lot of work and money.

 

Then there are those who would still like to buy well modeled Spitfire or 109 variants: if the money can be found, and the aviation enthusiasts in ED who develop the models have the time, there's no reason not to follow dreams of Spitfires, 109s, Yak 3s, Tempests or F4Us or Ki-84s.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B

[NineLine]

I dont need to see a ton of different 109 and Spitfire variants beyond what we are getting except for some Battle of Britain variants, I know its been done to death, but DCS level BoB sounds very appealing to me :)

[Pman]

I dont need to see a ton of different 109 and Spitfire variants beyond what we are getting except for some Battle of Britain variants, I know its been done to death, but DCS level BoB sounds very appealing to me :)

 

Your not the only one, We have contacts who own 4 Spitfire I's plus several II's as well plus other in restoration.

 

You will for sure see an early Spitfire from us, plus we have contacts with unbelievable data on the BF109E3/4 including current pilots rated on type :)

 

Its safe to say that once our current line up of 4 warbirds has been completed BoB period aircraft will follow soon after :)

 

Pman

[Kurfürst]

:thumbup:, Pman!

[NineLine]

Good to hear, I look forward to it, there is just something about those early versions I love...

[Friedrich-4B]

Just got a copy of Spitfire Aces of Northwest Europe 1944-45; this provides a good, albeit condensed, account of Spitfire 2TAF and ADGB ops. It also provides some good colour profiles and photos.

[Yob]

Just got a copy of Spitfire Aces of Northwest Europe 1944-45; this provides a good, albeit condensed, account of Spitfire 2TAF and ADGB ops. It also provides some good colour profiles and photos.

 

fantastic, i am personally looking at that one myself.

 

I must say off all the ww2 aircraft the Spitifre mk IX and Mosquito are the ones i look forward to most.

[Hadwell]

mk.5 and mk.9 are two totally different beasts... mk.5 is like a feather on the breeze, mk.9 is far heavier and faster...

[Yob]

mk.5 and mk.9 are two totally different beasts... mk.5 is like a feather on the breeze, mk.9 is far heavier and faster...

 

Yes, but the mk-IX's turn cycle is tighter then the mark 5's. If my brain serves me right.

 

And will we get slipper tanks on the 9 and 5

[Friedrich-4B]

Please note the source and the 445mph for a idealized production Spitfire IX. Maybe the previous 6 pages of the document can be posted.

 

 

 

Attached is the full RAE report on the finish and equipment of the Spitfire VC and IX. Coinciding with the RAE report, steps were already being taken to improve the finish of Spitfires on the production line; it was also agreed that improved servicing standards on squadrons would be promulgated:

 

 

eg:

 

 

It should also be noted that the top speeds quoted in the RAE report were measured on Spitfire VC conversions, or very early production Spitfire IXs which had several drag producing features not found on most production L.F Mk IXs; eg: the rectangular, unfaired rear-view mirror, which shaved 3.25 mph off the top speed, and the 20mm gun bay doors with the large blister to allow for the installation of two Hispanos in each wing = - 1.5 mph. Nor did they have the flush ejector chutes = - 1.25 mph.

 

The rest of the L.F Mk IXs tested by Rolls-Royce, Supermarine or other RAF testing stations were either converted from Mk VCs, or were very early production IXs with a Merlin 66.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B

[Friedrich-4B]

Originally posted by Kurfürst; deleted after reply was posted: I can imagine the build 'quality' of early production Spitfires when even later examples after all these improvents fell on avarage 15 mph short of the official figures...

 

As the report notes, the fall in top speed...

 

...is attributed to an increase in equipment....the finish of Spitfire Is showed little deterioration during production.

 

To claim that this document somehow proves that early production Spitfires had poor build quality is drawing a very long, inaccurate bow, particularly when the report - that Kurfurst has had for a long time - lists the items of added equipment, and the speed penalty they imposed; eg; external bulletproof windscreen = -7.75 mph, unfaired rear view mirror = - 6.75 mph etc. One other item of speed loss not mentioned by the report were IFF Mk I aerial wires which ran from the tips of the tailplane to the fuselage - these cost another 2 mph.

 

At the same time, the addition of CS propellers meant that the takeoff and landing distances decreased, while the climb speed and service ceiling increased markedly. As Alfred Price pointed out, the later production Spitfire I was more fit for purpose than early production examples, in spite of the fall in top speed.

 

Originally posted by Kurfürst; deleted after reply was posted: As the report notes, the Mark V wasn't even faster than the Mark I, despite the better engine.

 

The report makes it clear that this did not apply to all Mk Vs, noting that early production Mk Vs were faster than later Mk Is. It then goes on to note that added extra equipment and a "large fall" in build quality during production of the Mk V led to a loss of at least 15.5 mph.

 

Once again, as already noted, concurrent with the release of this RAE report, steps were already being taken to reverse the poor build quality on the factory floor, and to ensure better maintenance in the field.

 

By contrast, during late 1944 and 1945 the build quality of late 109Gs and the 109K-4's deteriorated badly, and there was no time or opportunity for remedial action.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B
Original Kfurst post deleted

[Kurfürst]

T'is very interesting and all, but is there *any* test of a serial production Spitfire Mk. IX L.F. would indicate that the common type could reach even 400 mph..?

 

Plans and attempts were plentiful I am sure of that - but in the end they either did not realize or simply failed to remediate the problems with aerodynamic quality.

 

By contrast the late war performance trials of 109G and K I have seen show that they reliably reached and sometimes even exceeded their 'paper' specifications.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Kurfürst

[Crumpp]

Please note the source and the 445mph for a idealized production Spitfire IX. Maybe the previous 6 pages of the document can be posted.

 

I am sure they will just use the performance found in the POH and flight planning materials.

[MiloMorai]

I am sure they will just use the performance found in the POH and flight planning materials.

 

One would hope so.:)

[Friedrich-4B]

T'is very interesting and all, but is there *any* test of a serial production Spitfire Mk. IX L.F. would indicate that the common type could reach even 400 mph..?

 

All the testing with early Mk IXs with the Merlin 66 showed an average top speed of about 404 mph; considering that the build quality improved and features such as the rounded, faired mirror and gun bay doors with the single "slim" blisters were introduced, there's no reason to believe that the performance figures magically slipped below par.

 

Oh yes, there is an RAAF performance report on a Spitfire L.F Mk VIII with the Merlin 66, but it goes on to state that the top speed was reached above critical full throttle height and that the figures were lower than those achieved in British tests; because of these inconsistencies, checks on another Spitfire VIII would be carried out "when available".

 

Plans and attempts were plentiful I am sure of that - but in the end they either did not realize or simply failed to remediate the problems with aerodynamic quality.

 

I take it from this that Kurfurst is privy to documentation and/or secondary source material that shows that none of the "plans and attempts" were realised, and that the build quality and so-called "aerodynamic quality" problems were not remedied?

[MiloMorai]

By contrast the late war performance trials of 109G and K I have seen show that they reliably reached and sometimes even exceeded their 'paper' specifications.

Why should the Gs and Ks be better than the 262, from the same manufacture?

 

Graph in the Radinger/Schick's "Me 262" book.

 

The graph was based on 125 series-production aircraft tested at 1 km height during acceptance testing.

 

The speed ranges from 740 km/h for the slowest to 880 km/h for the fastest aircraft.

[Kurfürst]

All the testing with early Mk IXs with the Merlin 66 showed an average top speed of about 404 mph;

 

An interesting claim and it also runs contrary to what I have seen in Merlin 66 tested aircraft. Would you kindly share with us all these alleged "testings" that were supposed avarage out to exactly 404 mph?

 

considering that the build quality improved and features such as the rounded, faired mirror and gun bay doors with the single "slim" blisters were introduced, there's no reason to believe that the performance figures magically slipped below par.

 

Except for the fact that none of the Merlin 66 powered serial production Merlin 66 Spit testing I have seen shows that they could even reach even 400 mph, so it was either a build quality issue or there was some magic coincidence in that each and all the tested planes must have been 'lemons'...

 

So lets just see the hard evidence you can surely present: test results of serial production Merlin 66 aircraft and evidence of when and to what extent the planned improvements were realized in serial production.

[JtD]

Maybe you can get a head start and present all the tests you have seen? Evidence makes it much easier to built a case.

[Kurfürst]

Scroll back a couple of pages in this thread, as I already have - we will now see what other tests you or Friedrich may be aware of.

 

Did they ever mass test the production speed of serial production Spitfires, I wonder.

[MiloMorai]

Did they ever mass test the production speed of serial production Spitfires, I wonder.

 

Naw, they just shipped them out to where ever they were suppose to go without any acceptance flights to make sure the a/c were up to spec.:music_whistling:

[JtD]

Scroll back a couple of pages in this thread, as I already have - we will now see what other tests you or Friedrich may be aware of.

I found one test from the VVS concerning a Merlin 66 Spitfire IX. Not much, if that's really all. I know of another one which gave 642 km/h, but overall I don't care enough to actually search for anything. 404 mph +/- 3% is absolutely fine with me, and I'd be surprised if Supermarine invested a lot of effort into making their planes better than specified, it goes against commercial necessities.

[Kurfürst]

Well lets see.

 

 

Testbed BS 310, Mk IX LF / M66 testbed, briefly tested in March 1943 resulting 404 mph. Testing Conditions unknown, but apparantly this was selected as the nominal spec.

Serial production JL 165, Mk IX LF / M66 tested in a lightly loaded condition by R-R in October 1943, resulting 397 mph.

Serial production JL 165, Mk IX LF / M66 tested in a fully loaded condition by R-R in February 1944, resulting 389 mph.

Serial production JL 934, Mk VIII LF / M66 (extended wingtips and "virtually a new one") tested in a fully loaded condition by RAAF in April 1944, resulting 391 mph.

Serial production from MJ/ML/MK *** series exported to USSR, Mk IX LF / M66 (cut wingtips), tested in a fully loaded condition by NII VVS in 1944, resulting 390 mph.

 

So while I agree with you that it is very likely that most Spitfires could satisfy the production tolerance of 3% for the nominal 404 mph top speed (that is, a minimum of 392 mph), there is a strong indication that they were typically sat at the lower end of the tolerance, ie. around 390 mph.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Kurfürst