Dogfight tactics

[TAW_Blaze]

Yes but if you get jumped while trying to out dogfight someone you're usually dead.

 

Agreed, executing 2v1 is far more important than knowing how to duel on your own. Even if you have an inexperienced wingman you can make him learn fast by just telling him to follow whatever you do (considering the lead is a better pilot, putting the better pilot as wingman is a waste of potential imo) and help out as much as he can. Both of you will die a lot but sooner or later you'll be a good team.

[NineLine]

Yes but if you get jumped while trying to out dogfight someone you're usually dead.

 

 

And if the bad guy is doing it right, you are getting jumped by his wingman ;)

[GGTharos]

Because you get slow and speed=life.

 

 

Yes, but if you don't know when to expend your speed, you suck at BFM almost as much as those who blow it all in one glorious turn.

 

When i dive with the p51 at maximum speed on a 109 in the old il2 i only need a split second burst to brake a wing off. Because the speed vectors of my plane and my rounds combine, and the mg rounds have a lot more energy. kinetic energy is calculated like this:

Ek = ½mv2 (that is m*(V*V)/2)

 

So this equation reveals that the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed. That means that for a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. For a threefold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of nine.So if you shoot at max speed your mg rounds have far, far more distructive enery.

 

Nice understanding of an equation, poor understanding of the physics of the situation ... your rounds aren't going to gain significant destructive power from the speed variance of your fighter. They're already being launched out of your aircraft at over M2 when the speed is zero. You're nowhere near doubling or tripling their speed.

 

If you shoot from low dogfight speeds like "profesor echo" here your rounds have a lot less energy so you will shoot a bucket of bullets to get the kill if you are facing a pilot that takes evasive action and not a noob.

 

No, the other pilot will simply clear out of the way of the rounds because he has the energy to make that change in position. Again, physics and BFM fail.

 

If i was in that p51 i would do a downward defensive spiral because tha 51 accelerates much faster in a dive and disengage. Why should i go up when the 109 is beter in a climb ?

 

Maybe because you started with more speed - in BFM, everything depends ;)

[NineLine]

 

 

Maybe because you started with more speed - in BFM, everything depends ;)

 

 

I should add to my post above, situational awareness, as in knowing when your opponent is vulnerable or not :) Its never the same, even if an enemy aircraft can out perform yours in a certain action, doesnt mean the enemy pilot is in the position to take advantage of that...

[Merlin-27]

The biggest aces of all time Erich Hartman , Richtofen said that they almost never dogfighted.In fact Richtofen got shot down because of loosing his cool and chasing for far too long the enemy plane.

 

I do agree with this to a degree. If your aim is to avoid death at all cost you must work to keep engagements brief. It's not as conductive to online play... and I think there is a happy medium to be found.

 

If you shoot from low dogfight speeds like "profesor echo" here your rounds have a lot less energy so you will shoot a bucket of bullets to get the kill if you are facing a pilot that takes evasive action and not a noob.

 

So you are saying it is easier to get concentrated hits on a target while at max speed than in a turn fight? If you hit the right part of the aircraft those 2000 mile per hour .50 bullets have plenty of punch even while the aircraft is practically standing still.

 

While the diving attack is advantageous in many ways, accuracy is not on the plus side. Spraying bullets is bad no matter the speed.

 

All the time the germans atacked in pairs(leader , wingman).The leader attaks while the wingman watches his 6.

Stuf like: the skilled german leader fights the american and everybody else wathes is TV crap.

it's just as realistic as a monkey shooting down a 109 by throwing a banana while hanging from a weather baloon.

 

Both sides realized the value of fighting in pairs as do most of us here. Staying with your wingman through an intense dogfight is VERY difficult...and even the guys who's lives depended on it got separated most of the time. In theory it is an ideal arrangement but most actual WWII dogfights were violent and short with effort spent afterwards trying to find friendlies and re-join.

[Echo38]

[nod] And let's not forget bomber escort. The little friends had quite a bit of pressure on them; sometimes they had to dive away to live, but many of them didn't just scoot and run at the first sign of a threat, because unescorted bombers had a terrible life expectancy. This is one of the reasons P-51s engaged in dogfighting more regularly than one might expect of a high-speed heavy fighter. (Of course, "dogfighting" doesn't necessarily mean "duelling," nor tossing out your speed and parking on the other guy's six.)

[Lulac]

Dicta Lule: :)

-Mustang is energy fighter!

-always boom&zoom,

-speed is life,

-aim good...deflection...convergence!!!

-be in position that you decide when to attack (be higher than your opponent),

....

 

i'm currently working on this tips,we'll see how it turn out ... :pilotfly:

 

edit:

-never loose visual contact with your opponent!

Edited October 18, 2013 by Lulac

[Ich666]

Dicta Lule: :)

-Mustang is energy fighter!

-always boom&zoom,

-speed is life,

-aim good...deflection...convergence!!!

-be in position that you decide when to attack (be higher than your opponent),

....

 

i'm currently working on this tips,we'll see how it turn out ... :pilotfly:

 

edit:

-never loose visual contact with your opponent!

 

I was under the impression that the FW190 was an even better energy fighter, also the AI is very good at conserving energy in itself. Playing by the FW's rules might not be a good idea for survival. In P-51 vs P-51 it depends on the pilot. If you're good at dogfighting and your enemy in MP isnt, well, you just might want to get him to a turning fight. Therefore I think this is a bit too generalized.

 

Holding visual contact is most important, I have to agree :)

[GGTharos]

It looks like people don't understand what an energy fighter is.

 

An energy fighter is a fighter that, compared to its opponent has a distinct (10%+) thrust/climb/acceleration advantage. It can play the vertical better than other other fighter.

 

An angles fighter is a fighter that has a distinct (10%+) advantage in turning ability over the other fighter.

 

Saying that the Mustang is an 'energy fighter' is thus incorrect: It depends on what its opponent is.

 

Further to that, just because one plane is better at something than another, does not mean it can take advantage of it. What if an 'energy fighter' is caught below optimal speed?

 

Was it there because the pilot is horsing around, or did the pilot make a sharp turn to expend his speed for a kill?

 

If you believe that 'boom and zoom' makes anyone an energy fighter, I have some bridges to sell you :) Anyone who relies on just boom and zoom is a one-trick pony ( ... har har ).

 

While certainly pilots will find a bag of tricks that just works for them, there's a reason why there exists an entire school of BFM.

 

Dicta Lule: :)

-Mustang is energy fighter!

[GGTharos]

It is way too generalized ... it's like people think that energy tactics don't apply in a turning fight, because obviously all energy tactics must be boom and zoom :)

 

If you're good at dogfighting and your enemy in MP isnt, well, you just might want to get him to a turning fight. Therefore I think this is a bit too generalized.

[otto]

"Further to that, just because one plane is better at something than another, does not mean it can take advantage of it. What if an 'energy fighter' is caught below optimal speed?"

 

Depends on the pilot.If the pilot does not use the planes advantages does he not make a mistake ?

 

"Was it there because the pilot is horsing around, or did the pilot make a sharp turn to expend his speed for a kill?"

 

Why not cut the angle and make a deflection kill at full speed ?

Edited October 18, 2013 by otto

[Lulac]

every My rule is subject to change and it depend of tactical situation...yet to be confirmed in MP combat...

 

and about "energy fighter", in the gross division of the ways of fight, during the WWII Americans and Germans - energy, England and Japan - turn fighter...I read that while ago in some literature and it stuck in my memory...

[Pyroflash]

every My rule is subject to change and it depend of tactical situation...yet to be confirmed in MP combat...

 

and about "energy fighter", in the gross division of the ways of fight, during the WWII Americans and Germans - energy, England and Japan - turn fighter...I read that while ago in some literature and it stuck in my memory...

 

If you want up to date definitions and theoretical tactics for the modern day, I suggest you take a look at The Art and Science of Air to Air Combat by Robert L. Shaw.

 

"Energy fighter" and "angles fighter" are not definitions of aircraft, but rather definitions of particular fighting styles designed to take advantage of your aircraft RELATIVE to the bandit's aircraft. That's all they are though, tactical stances that you take as a pilot in a fight.

[GGTharos]

Because maybe he's trying to shoot the guy off a buddy's six and he needs a tracking kill instead of a lower Pk snapshot. There's a counter to everything. Even with modern computer sights the snapshot is considered to be a low Pk shot.

 

Why not cut the angle and make a deflection kill at full speed ?

[VanjaB]

All I want to do is kill the Dora in the Fast Mission. So far no luck, as soon as he gets on my tail, its a losing game. Anyone have any tips on how to proceed when facing the Fw-190 form an initial head on position??

[Sharpe]

All I want to do is kill the Dora in the Fast Mission. So far no luck, as soon as he gets on my tail, its a losing game. Anyone have any tips on how to proceed when facing the Fw-190 form an initial head on position??

 

evade a head on shot if he takes it. Turn the moment the ai cant get their guns on to you. then, keep him in sight and keep an eye on your speed. other then that, good luck.

 

edit: if you're handy enough, you could load that mission into the fmb and lighten the fuel load.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Sharpe

[otto]

VnajsB

 

when he gets close i dive my nose a little apply combat flaps and when he starts his turn to the right i turn to the left.Then rolling scissors.But this is me.

You need practice.That is all.

When and if i have time i will try to post some youtube videos. Hope it helps.

[Tumbleweed]

All I want to do is kill the Dora in the Fast Mission. So far no luck, as soon as he gets on my tail, its a losing game. Anyone have any tips on how to proceed when facing the Fw-190 form an initial head on position??

 

From another thread, some advice I read was to open the FW-190 mission in the mission editor and put some distance between you and the Dora by moving its starting position back by a couple of miles to give you chance to set up your aircraft.

 

Next, adjust the fuel weight to around 25 - 30% so the P-51D isn't all unbalanced and tipping and bucking about like a steer with CJD.

 

Both seemed to help me when I tried last night. That Dora just couldn't get on my tail for a change and consequently he never got to fire a single shot :)

[VanjaB]

From another thread, some advice I read was to open the FW-190 mission in the mission editor and put some distance between you and the Dora by moving its starting position back by a couple of miles to give you chance to set up your aircraft.

 

Next, adjust the fuel weight to around 25 - 30% so the P-51D isn't all unbalanced and tipping and bucking about like a steer with CJD.

 

Both seemed to help me when I tried last night. That Dora just couldn't get on my tail for a change and consequently he never got to fire a single shot :)

 

Erm, isnt that cheating though? Ok putting some distance between us could help with the tactical situation, but am I right in assuming that the Dora also starts with a full tank of fuel??

[NineLine]

Erm, isnt that cheating though? Ok putting some distance between us could help with the tactical situation, but am I right in assuming that the Dora also starts with a full tank of fuel??

 

Cheating? No, really the nature of the quick start mission puts you at a disadvantage right away as some like to get their aircraft comfy before a fight, with the quick start mission this isnt much time to do anything....

[VanjaB]

Cheating? No, really the nature of the quick start mission puts you at a disadvantage right away as some like to get their aircraft comfy before a fight, with the quick start mission this isnt much time to do anything....

 

Actually I was talking about the fuel setup, carrying aproximately 70% less fuel does feel like cheating. Unless the Dora is also light on fuel?

[NineLine]

Actually I was talking about the fuel setup, carrying aproximately 70% less fuel does feel like cheating. Unless the Dora is also light on fuel?

 

Ok that is a little more like cheating, but really if you are just starting out or having trouble there is nothing wrong with giving yourself a little advantage, and then slowly take away those advantages as you get better...

[otto]

@GGTharos

 

So so :) .. to do a downward spiral in a P51 with a 109 on 6 is wrong. what would you do ?

 

I did not know the speed of the bullets so i was wrong about that.

You have theoretical skills, not practical.It is clear from what you write you have not spend time in WW2 online sims.In an energy fighter vs an angles fighter you dogfight for too long you will end up dead .Most of the time a third plane kills you when you get too slow. But if you keep your speed up and deflection kill your enemyes then it's a different story.Most of the time i get lots of hits even from weird angles if they get slow.Very important is knowing if and when to enter or leave a fight.

 

When i dogfight the dora i get realy slow.In an online many vs many match i would never do that.A lesson learned the hard way.

Btw the FW 190 Dora has a bad damage model in my opinion.A few shots to the engine should damage it at least.

Edited October 21, 2013 by otto

[Echo38]

@GGTharos

You have theoretical skills, not practical.It is clear from what you write you have not spend time in WW2 online sims.

 

ROFL

 

just ... wow. I can't take this discussion seriously anymore : D

[otto]

@Echo38

 

I stated: Keep the fights short, only atack when having an advantage, do not slow dogfight a angles fighter.Do not spent to much of your energy.

He only says i'm wrong.Is he wright ?

Was the p51 build to energy fight or to dogfight ? If they wanted dogfighter why not build a spitfire.

 

In the old Il2 i cut the path of a turning 109 or once, twice , i get a few shots on the engine or cockpit (engine brakes down or pilot dies). I never turn with the 109 , loosing energy.Even when "saving " a friendly i fire shots until the 109 brakes of but i do not folow him in the turn.I make a yo-yo and if i can't get the 109 after that i dive to refill my energy.I think it's also a good tactic for DCS P51 vs DCS p51 .Is this wrong ?

 

This is how the tread begins : Taking part in MP dogfights.....

The guy asks for info on MP tactics.And GGTharos argues only that i am wrong.

Edited October 22, 2013 by otto