BF 109 K4

[Friedrich-4B]

Hey guys, I love talking about this stuff as much as the next person, but maybe not quite as much as you guys, but if you guys cant agree to disagree at least, then you need to find a nice forum that is all about debating the merits of WWII history books, this forum is for DCS World, and its partners, we should keep it within the realm of that.

 

For instance, I will probably go through the same amount of K's produced during WWII in the first month of getting my hands on the K. So discuss what you would like to see done with this bird and RRG's new offering, share info you have found about it and other aircraft, but lets keep the debating to a minimum.

 

If you have any concerns about this, feel free to PM me or any of the other staff, if its to complain about the other guy... I already know, and this post is my answer.

 

Lets all live in peace and harmony while we discuss what we all love, WWII combat aviation. This thread in particular should be about RRG's BF-109K.

 

Thanks guys!

 

No problem.

 

In line with discussing the RRG K-4, several sources - including Schmoll, posted above - mention that the Mk 108 on the K-4 suffered from chronic jamming; is their any chance that this will be modeled, or at least made an option?

Edited February 20, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B
Should of course read MK 108

[Kurfürst]

Hi Jeff and thank you for clarifying how you managed to arrive at the production numbers you reported for 109Ks in March 1945.

 

Perhaps you also have some failure rate figures for these "chronic jamming" issues with the MK 108 that would help the developers? I am sure this would be very useful for the development team, or failure rates for Mauser, Hispano and Browning wing installations, if you happen to have any.

 

I do not think however, that the MK 103 was used in the 109K-4, though a slimmer version, the MK 103mot, was developed for use with the K-10. I am sure it would be a lot of fun, though. :)

 

I do wonder though as to what depth weapon systems are being modelled - are automatic re-loading mechanisms (Durchladung) modelled, where present, for example? I cannot remember seeing the Durchladeknopf in the 109Ks 3d cocpit model.

 

Edited February 19, 2014 by Kurfürst

[NineLine]

Yes any info on this would be great, I am sure if they can get detailed info on the weapon systems, they might be able to add in failures as well. Even if its more like the system for failures with the A-10C.

[Friedrich-4B]

Another possibility is the option of the 109K-4/R-4 with 20mm gondolas: From Don Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary Volume 2: 1943-45 (pages 378-379):

 

 

 

 

This was late November 1944. According to the casualty lists most of these K-4s were from the 3303XX to 3304XX production batch.

[Kurfürst]

This might be interesting - two pages from the manual for the 109G-6/U4 (MK 108 version). The part for board weapons in 109Ks manual is missing, but the system was probably the very same (other parts of the 109K manual note the presence of the system, just not the details of its operation).

 

On the Bf 109, upon switching the master arm safety ON at the SZKK 3 board, the system loaded (Durchladung) and the weapon and in case of weapon failure, it reloaded it automatically and cleared jamming after releasing all triggers.

 

The weapons system was operated electro-pneumatically, with electric circuits doing the firing when the trigger was pressed, using 40 V voltage to ignite the cartridge electrically (MG 131, MK 108) - this also facilitated syncronizing greatly for the cowl machine guns and eliminated synchronization losses and reduction in rate of fire. The pneumatic systems using highly pressurized air for cocking and loading the guns, or in case of jam. On the MK 108, air pressure also was responsible for releasing the bolt when firing. Pressurized air bottles were carried on board for this purpose.

 

As noted, this is an early manual from 1943, noting that some electical safeties are missing, so the MK 108 has to be reloaded/unjammed manually, using the P 301 button on the stick. After that, a 2 second delay was to be observed before firing again, to avoid damage to the weapon. When the required circuits were installed, reloading/unjamming was automatic, upon releasing both triggers.

[Kurfürst]

Another cool little detail / gimmnick: the front armor glass of the 109K could be electrically heating, to avoid misting/fogging, a la on the Me 262. The system only operated when the undercarriage was UP, probably to avoid accidental drain of the battery on the ground.

[Merlin-27]

Another cool little detail / gimmnick: the front armor glass of the 109K could be electrically heating, to avoid misting/fogging, a la on the Me 262. The system only operated when the undercarriage was UP, probably to avoid accidental drain of the battery on the ground.

 

Also if the heated glass is accidentally left on/switched on it can crack the windscreen. Happens from time to time on "modern" aircraft.

[Kurfürst]

Good point - I suppose armored glass is of the fairly rigid type, and consist of many thin layers sandwhiched-glued together. That combo may crack, especially in the winter.

[Kurfürst]

I just found this, its a very interesting video, British firing trials with MK 108. ;)

 

[MiloMorai]

How K-4s ended their days, no doubt shot down by Spitfires with Mk II gunsights:

 

[Friedrich-4B]

I just found this, its a very interesting video, British firing trials with MK 108. ;)

 

 

Yes the Mk 108 was quite effective; wonder whether the British tested it in flight while attempting to manouvre?

[Kurfürst]

I guess there was no need, as they already had first hand experience on the effectiveness and reliability of the MK 108 under high g loads from the Luftwaffe live fire exercises. ;)

 

The British must have been impressed, as they copied the round and the new Mauser revolver cannon firing it as the ADEN cannon, which replaced the venerable Hispano.

 

Here's another shot at it by the British, this time, the fuselage suffers from one 3 cm round.

 

[diveplane]

I think it's time to start own topic for this great fighter. 109 is my favourite fighter of WW2 and K4 is "the ultimate" version of it. I think it was great choice from devs even it's a bit late model for normandy, as now we should be able to fight pretty much equally against any allied fighter. G6 or 14 would have suffer too much in this late war company. Of course i hope they will come later as add-ons :) Anyways, with two 13mm machine guns and one 30mm cannon it could be very deadly plane in hands of skilled pilot, and with MW 50 methanol-water injection it should be able to outclimb any fighter out there (well spitfire XIV should be about equal AFAIK).

 

 

 

Question for devs: judging by cockpit screenshot (wich looks awesome btw) engine will be DB 605 DB with 1.80 ata/ 1800hp, will there be DC version with C3 fuel and 2000hp's available too?

 

heres my audio productions of the 109 ingame , wont get much better imo.

 

sounds sweet

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXtIh7TGq8o

[DB 605]

heres my audio productions of the 109 ingame , wont get much better imo.

 

sounds sweet

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXtIh7TGq8o

 

Got actual goosebumps when i listened to this. Sweet, very very sweet indeed...:thumbup:

[TwilightZone]

Great sound..............:clap_2:

[LcSummers]

Fantastic work diveplane.

 

Love that sound

 

 

The only thing missing its the K-4.:music_whistling:

 

S!

[LcSummers]

New question on the K-4.

 

I have seen pictures where you can see the little tank behind the the armoured glass directly behind the pilots head. These can be seen on G-10 too.

 

Is it right that this little "feature" depends on the fuel? Or is there any other reason.

 

So, C3 aircraft dont need them, where as aircraft with B87 fuel need that tank.

 

TY

[Kurfürst]

If you mean the cylindrical shaped tank in the rear fuselage just right behind the cocpit, its the tank for MW 50 boost. It was always present on the 109K-4 (and G-14, G-10, too) - it was used the same 87 octane B-4 or 150 grade C-3 being used - all aircraft could use either.

 

On previous aircraft it held 70 to 85 liters of MW-50 (a 50-50 mixture of methanol anti-freeze and water) to increase power via water injection; on the 109K-4, it was also possible to use this tank as an auxiliary fuel tank, in which c, in which case it held 115 liters of fuel, to extend the range of the aircraft by about 25%. When it was used as a fuel tank, a switch connected to a valve was used, which supplied the tanks contents into the main fuel tank instead of the eye of the supercharger. The reason for more fuel was to maintain the centre of gravity (fuel has about 75% the density of MW50).

 

If you mean, however, the small boxy structure in the back of the cocpit wall, it was only present on MW 50 boosted 109Gs, as the battery has to be moved to make way for the MW tank in the fuselage.

[LcSummers]

Hi Kurfürst,

 

this is an explanation. Love it. Everything explained what i need.

 

I meant the small boxy structure. This i can see on some K-4 and on others this structure is missing. I was not sure because some model kits representing them others not.

 

So this is the battery. Great info and

 

thanks

 

LC

 

 

 

If you mean the cylindrical shaped tank in the rear fuselage just right behind the cocpit, its the tank for MW 50 boost. It was always present on the 109K-4 (and G-14, G-10, too) - it was used the same 87 octane B-4 or 150 grade C-3 being used - all aircraft could use either.

 

On previous aircraft it held 70 to 85 liters of MW-50 (a 50-50 mixture of methanol anti-freeze and water) to increase power via water injection; on the 109K-4, it was also possible to use this tank as an auxiliary fuel tank, in which c, in which case it held 115 liters of fuel, to extend the range of the aircraft by about 25%. When it was used as a fuel tank, a switch connected to a valve was used, which supplied the tanks contents into the main fuel tank instead of the eye of the supercharger. The reason for more fuel was to maintain the centre of gravity (fuel has about 75% the density of MW50).

 

If you mean, however, the small boxy structure in the back of the cocpit wall, it was only present on MW 50 boosted 109Gs, as the battery has to be moved to make way for the MW tank in the fuselage.

[DB 605]

Hi Kurfürst,

 

this is an explanation. Love it. Everything explained what i need.

 

I meant the small boxy structure. This i can see on some K-4 and on others this structure is missing. I was not sure because some model kits representing them others not.

 

So this is the battery. Great info and

 

thanks

 

LC

 

Actually you should not see this box on K4's, as battery was moved again. That box should only be visible on G models with MW-50.

[Friedrich-4B]

Actually you should not see this box on K4's, as battery was moved again. That box should only be visible on G models with MW-50.

 

DB 605 is right - that box was never seen on the K-4 because the battery was moved backwards slightly into the space above the MW 50/fuel tanks, which meant that the hatch cover was flat; from Bf 109K-4 Flugzeug-Handbuch Teil 1: Rumpfwerk issued November 1944:

 

 

 

If you see a small boxy structure behind the pilot's seat you are not looking at a K-4.

 

For interest here is the K-4's canopy mechanism:

 

Edited March 9, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B
Add canopy mechanism

[NineLine]

.

[theChris]

Any info on the k4 1g stall speed, virage time e.t.c?

[Demon_]

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#takeoff

[Isegrim]

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#takeoff

 

Good read :thumbup:

 

THX