Free Su-25T vs. IR SAM

[Jimbolya]

So I've had the sim now for about 3 days and I'm still working on some control / keyboard issues (i.e. getting into comfortable configs). Anyways, what I've found so far for training flights is to create a quick mission (CAS) with low AAA and low SAM. I'm flying as Russian and not Georgian. The US side seems to roll with mostly Humvee SAMS, Linebackers, and Vulcans.

 

I'm flying these missions solo, and have been shot down every flight lol. The Vulcans I'm not too worried about, but the Stingers get me every time. I'm learning that I need to stay above 3000ft, but I'm wondering if there's any good videos out there with regards to higher altitude spotting techniques - I'm finding it hard to spot the targets on the ground at that altitude, and / or videos of going up against these air defense systems. Obviously my RWR doesn't pick those up.

 

Any good links would be cool -

 

Cheers ~

[kontiuka]

I just finished the Su-25T campaign and I would say that stingers were my #1 bane. I did manage to come up with a survival technique that worked fairly well though.

 

Here's a big discussion on IR missle avoidance:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116668

Edited January 9, 2014 by kontiuka

[Davis0079]

use flares as a preemptive tool...not a reactive tool...meaning use alot of them when running in on a target....or while in a target area.....I'm not sure about how the su25 is...but in the Ka-50 your wingman is always just randomly poppin flares and ppl always ask, "what is he doing? does he see something?"....the answer is no he does not see something...but what he is doing is he knows he is in a area where stingers might be hiding and continually popping a flare every 5 seconds just to make sure he doesn't get hit by something he doesn't see....

 

proactive...not reactive...flares work best like this because you never see the stinger that gets you....

[Jimbolya]

I just finished the Su-25T campaign and I would say that stingers were my #1 bane.

 

Yea - understandably so -

To catch up on some aviation history I watched a few documentaries regarding the Russian air force in Afghanistan. I can see why the pilot morale was so low.

 

Russian Air Force - lets use short range weapons - Like rockets...Their great!

 

Jihadist - Hey that's great! Let me introduce you to my American made Stinger!

 

Lol ~

[kontiuka]

What Davis0079 said about flares is true. That's why I always carry a crap-load of them. I also often approach a target from a high altitude (2500 to 3000 m) with nose pointed around 30 degrees downward. That way, you can actually see the stinger's smoke trail. Also, don't linger over the target area. Take out 1 or 2 baddies, flare like mad, and head back to friendly skies to make another pass. Lingering too long is sure death.

 

EDIT: The high alitude approach is of course only if radar guided SAMs have been taken care of. Also, never fly in a predictable path. These are just things I do. Other people have their own tricks.

Edited January 9, 2014 by kontiuka

[Jimbolya]

Yea - this is going to take a bit of training for me...

 

The hardest part is spotting from higher up - The random generated quick missions typically don't seem to have radar guided SAMS, so it's all IR; so, I can stay at altitude and out of range. I don't want to turn labels on - I feel that's a bit too much of a cheat...I'd rather learn the hard way and get it right from the get go.

 

I have programmed my PS3 controller with a chaff / flare button, but I don't salvo them; and, I haven't been using them in any sort of proactive mode. I will start doing that. I will also have to learn to be more patient. I miss my ground radar from Jane's F18 sim from way back.

[Vedexent]

Stingers are the bane of the Su-25, Su-25T, and others. You don't get warning like you do with the RWR and radar SAMs.

 

Tactics that work for me:

 

Stay above 3,500 meters out of Stinger range. This might require some Su-25T support, or AI SEAD support if there are hostile mid-to-long range Radar SAM batteries in the theater.

 

While not a great option in single player (AI Wingmen are dumb), you can do a lot better with Su-25s, when you fly in pairs or triples.

 

If you have to stay under the 3,500 meter deck (low thick clouds in hilly or mountainous terrain, for example) do "combat spacing" and continuously scan for Stinger trails. Someone in your group will likely spot the launch. Have your brevity code and squad communication skills sharp.

 

Both in squads, and on your own, learn to defeat SAMS - they can be out-flown.

 

If you're close to the 3,500 meter level, and your speed is good (>600Kph) a hard Immelman turn while pumping out flares is pretty effective.

 

At moderate heights, and high speeds, learn to drag the SAM down by diving until its motor burns out and then climbing and maneuvering hard while pumping out flares.

 

At low speeds coupled with low altitudes, die - you probably won't have a choice. Speed is life, altitude is life insurance.

 

As some have already suggested, if you're running in on a target way-point, assume there will be Stinger AADs, and pump out flare preemptively as you make your attack run. Multiple planes works well here too. One plane runs in, one plane orbits and watches for launches. Again: know your brevity code - "um, there's a SAM launch coming from a point where that river runs by the south end of the villi... oh, you're dead." isn't an effective warning :P

 

You can use this setup offensively as well. If you're flying with a wingman, and at least one of you is carrying stand-off weapons like the Kh-25Ml "Karens", then you can play "bait-and-kill". One plane can buzz the target zone at 600-700 Kph @ ~2,500-3,000 meter altitude to draw Stinger fire, then Immelman out of range. The other plane stands back a kilometer or two, and notes the position of the AAD, and kills it with the Karens. If the hunter pilot is really good, you can hose down an Avenger or Chaparral with S-13s from outside its launch range, but this takes some aiming skill.

 

To practice this all, you can set up a mission with a single Avenger, or a small group of them, and "dance" with them. You can actually bait an Avenger to fire off all its Stingers ( 8 ) Once he runs out, he's helpless and you can smack him down :D

 

Good luck! :)

[Jimbolya]

Well hopefully I can get online with you guys this weekend - I'm in EST time zone. Saturday or Sunday would probably work for a couple hours of flight time. I think I need to really tone down the difficulty of the quick missions to not have SAM / AAA at all right now. I'm having hard enough time spotting things without labels on, but the quick missions are great for practicing cold start / ingress (search) / attack / egress...repeat. Then begin to add in SAM / AAA after I've gotten good at deploying various types of dumb / laser / TV weapons. I'm still having a hard time getting Laser and TV weapons to fire. I put the little circle in the big circle, got the solid LA for launch but the weapon doesn't release...and you can clearly see the tank in the cockpit TV lol. I have made progress though in setting trim to a good axis point, and moving the TV slew buttons to buttons that are more meaningful. So progress is being made.

 

Good to know I'm not alone with the whole IR SAM thing lol =).

 

Thanks!

[159th_Falcon]

Agree whit above, in planes like the SU-25 and the SU-25T having a (human) wingmen is essential.

 

Opens up a whole new and rather large toolbox to use in combat.

 

Another tip, explore the mission editor.

Its not that hard to use, and if you place targets yourself you know where to look.

 

Not realistic, but a great training aid.

 

Could even just put a column of vehicles at an neighbouring airport runway for target practice.

(put in some IR sams once you feel more comfortable)

[Jimbolya]

Also regarding the Immelmann turn - wouldn't that bleed off a lot of energy quickly?

[Jimbolya]

Agree whit above, in planes like the SU-25 and the SU-25T having a (human) wingmen is essential.

 

Opens up a whole new and rather large toolbox to use in combat.

 

Another tip, explore the mission editor.

Its not that hard to use, and if you place targets yourself you know where to look.

 

Not realistic, but a great training aid.

 

Could even just put a column of vehicles at an neighbouring airport runway for target practice.

(put in some IR sams once you feel more comfortable)

 

 

Agreed - a human wingman would be good for sure. I thought about using the editor, but I like the randomness of the locations in the quick mission. Forces me to learn to spot the hard way. I have been able to use the TV to recon the ingress zone and spot a tank platoon. I got real anxious and rolled in on them - that was my first mistake lol.

 

I need to learn to set the flare to salvo fire as well - I do remember I did have that set in my F18 when I flew the Jane's sim.

[kk0425]

Also regarding the Immelmann turn - wouldn't that bleed off a lot of energy quickly?

 

It would also bleed off a lot of the missile's energy too since it's trying to match your turn. But it has no more energy left, while you still have your engines to help power you through it.

[GGTharos]

Good maneuver to avoid tracking, bad maneuver to avoid missiles, generally. There are caveats.

 

Also regarding the Immelmann turn - wouldn't that bleed off a lot of energy quickly?

[Maverick-X]

Easiest way of spotting enemys is looking out of your Pit and using zoom. If you have an Idea where the enemy is, try to find some landmarks you can easily find. Once found a little black dot, point your shkval on it and identify them. Use the landmarks to quickly reaquire your targets for the next pass. Memorize your heading for the passes to make it easier.

[Jimbolya]

Yea - very tough indeed.

[159_Archer]

Decoying IR missiles is not impossible by any means, -but requires that you know where the launcher is or seeing them soon after launch for the best chance.

 

If you are heading at them when you observe a launch, -or better still- beam on to them, immediately flare in 'bundles' of 3-4 and dive just as hard as you can -taking care not to over-speed and lose control. Having a good speed up on approach to the danger area helps as speed helps you to lose the IR missile.

 

You should keep popping bundles of flares until you notice that the missile has 'fallen' for your flares and is obviously not chasing you any more.

 

Once that happens I try to attain height quickly but without losing too much airspeed so that I have some height to use to repeat the manoeuvre if required.

 

As stated above by Falcon, build a simple mission or use one where you know there is a single IR launcher, and get used to approaching it where you are ready for it -also as stated above use your flares; they are used where there might be a risk in RL -so do the same from the word go!

 

It's great fun and rewarding to dodge the little-blighters -of course as said before here; it is always the one that you don't see that does get you in the end... -but at least know how to lose those that you do see!

[Vedexent]

Also regarding the Immelmann turn - wouldn't that bleed off a lot of energy quickly?

 

Yes - but don't think of it as losing speed. What you're doing to converting speed into altitude. Want to convert it back? Dive.

 

You're not losing energy, you're just converting kinetic energy into potential energy, and back again.

 

Caveat: you are losing some energy to air resistance and maneuvering, and you're pumping some energy back in with engines - so it's not a straight, zero-sum conversion.

[Vedexent]

Good maneuver to avoid tracking, bad maneuver to avoid missiles, generally. There are caveats.

 

I agree that doing an Immelman while someone is firing air-to-air to you probably isn't a good idea; it would make you a big ol' slow sitting duck just hanging there at high altitude.

 

However, in the described context of skimming the upper edge of the engagement envelope of the Stinger, it's just the vertical equivalent of doubling back on your course get out of SAM's range.

[Jimbolya]

Tried pulling that turn last night and almost stalled at +40 degrees nose up. I had full load of munitions so I'm assuming I had too much drag? My air speed was around 600.

[GGTharos]

Fair enough, but then you should be very specific in how the maneuver is executed. :) Otherwise, you get results as above.

 

However, in the described context of skimming the upper edge of the engagement envelope of the Stinger, it's just the vertical equivalent of doubling back on your course get out of SAM's range.

[Vedexent]

Tried pulling that turn last night and almost stalled at +40 degrees nose up. I had full load of munitions so I'm assuming I had too much drag? My air speed was around 600.

 

Overloading your plane can be a factor, yes. I see of lot of newer pilots just load everything plus the kitchen sink on a plane. Take only what you need.

 

I almost never fly the Su-25T, preferring the original Su-25, but what works for me is to push the speed well above 600 (and I would think this should be higher for the slower, less maneuverable Su-25T), and pull steadily as far back on the stick as one can, without exceeding the maximum angle-of-attack, as shown on your AoA guage.

 

Keep an eye on your ADI, and keep your plane from rolling left or right through the maneuver by gently nudging you ailerons. Keep an eye on your slip indicator, and keep that centered with your rudder - although if you entered the Immelman smoothly, this shouldn't be an issue.

 

Your ADI will "flip" at some point, as you start coming back down, inverted. Stop looping at around 10-15 degrees above horizontal, and aileron roll over into upright (you'll want to use rudder control on this maneuver).

 

Presto, you should be many hundreds of meters further off the ground. If you started at at the upper edge of the Stinger's range (somewhere higher than 2,500 meter - ideally somewhere around 3,000), this will take you out of the maximum climb altitude of the missile.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Vedexent

[Jimbolya]

Yea that's gonna take some practice as well...most times my airspeed in a zone is somewhere between 450-500 as it's hard for me to spot things if i'm moving faster. I'm gonna redo my zoom keys tonight hopefully and that will help. Right now my zoom keys are all or nothing, and that's driving me nuts, but it did give me some practice on zooming while in cockpit and flying with my view turned away from the HUD.

 

Any idea where the key is to turn on low light capability for the TV pod. I do like the idea of using low light TV during the day. The manual's description didn't make it sound like it had that kind of capability and it was more or less simply a light amplifier...meaning...hot objects look white.

[Vedexent]

Yea that's gonna take some practice as well...most times my airspeed in a zone is somewhere between 450-500 as it's hard for me to spot things if i'm moving faster. I'm gonna redo my zoom keys tonight hopefully and that will help. Right now my zoom keys are all or nothing, and that's driving me nuts, but it did give me some practice on zooming while in cockpit and flying with my view turned away from the HUD.

 

Any idea where the key is to turn on low light capability for the TV pod. I do like the idea of using low light TV during the day. The manual's description didn't make it sound like it had that kind of capability and it was more or less simply a light amplifier...meaning...hot objects look white.

 

It all takes some practice :)

 

A good key binding reference can be found here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1842245#post1842245

 

Also, don't neglect the PDF manual, or searching YouTube - there are some good videos out there.

 

I'm afraid I've not used the Mercury pod much (no Shkval on the Su-25), so I can't help you there.

 

As far as speed, altitude, and target spotting are concerned, that's something I'm only doing when I suspect there are Stingers in a target region: I know from the mission briefing, experience, or just don't know so I'm assuming there are and am trying to "bait" them so I can locate them by following their launch plume back to their position (while I climb out of missile range). Or better, my wingman can locate them while I dodge, and he kills them with Kh-25Mls

 

If I'm attacking ground targets, I tend to be lower (closer, easier to see), or diving sharply (less horizontal movement, easier to see), but you want to be sure you've detected the SAMs first, and either eliminated them or retreated out of their range.

[Jimbolya]

Right - I'm not sure how many missions would realistically not have air defenses...

If there were no air defenses then I could take all the time in the world to cherry pick -

[rajdary]

I just finished the Su25T Campaign on the 31st of December. It was alot of fun, abit repetitive but fun, i think hardly 1 or 2 night missions, anyway what i always ended up doing is just load the plane with essentials for it to be as light as possible and when on my way to the danger zone , try targeting first the air defences if its too difficult (which it is) you can also give instructions to your wingman to clear air defences, he might do so but ends up killed in 80% of the times.

By the way do all of you play with or without labels??