Confused by (Saitek) Rudder Pedals

[doveman]

I've just got my first set of rudder pedals and I'm struggling to get to grips with them as they operate in the opposite way to how I thought they would.

 

If I press down the left pedal, the KA-50 turns left and if I press the right pedal, it turns right. I'd always assumed it would be the opposite way round, simply because pressing the left pedal causes your right leg to come back and your torso to twist to the right, so it would seem more natural that the helo would turn the same way and it feels very strange to have my torso twisting right and the helo turning the opposite way. There's probably plenty of examples of other activity where this is how we operate, such as skating, where if we're turning right we push our left leg forward and keep our right one back, or even just turning on the spot to face someone, we do the same.

 

I'm sure the pedals are mapped correctly as I can see the in-cockpit ones mirroring the real ones. I know I could invert the rudder axis but then the pedals would be in sync and so I can only guess they're meant to operate as they currently are.

 

If so, I guess I'll just have to try and train my brain to accept it but I don't want to start doing that before I'm sure it's right, only to have to try and unlearn all that again (I'm not sure my little brain could cope with doing that twice in a row!).

[cichlidfan]

If I press down the left pedal, the KA-50 turns left and if I press the right pedal, it turns right.

 

Yes, that is the correct way for them to function.

[doveman]

Yes, that is the correct way for them to function.

 

Dammit! Oh well, I'll just have to hope my brain still has enough cells left to learn this without too much difficulty. I'll probably get there now I've actually got some pedals to use instead of just imagining how they would work :)

[cichlidfan]

You're not the first person to express that same concern. Though, I can't recall anyone saying that they finally had to reverse them to feel 'right'. Give it a little time and I am sure you will soon wonder how they could possibly work the other way. :)

[doveman]

You're not the first person to express that same concern. Though, I can't recall anyone saying that they finally had to reverse them to feel 'right'. Give it a little time and I am sure you will soon wonder how they could possibly work the other way. :)

 

Yeah, I'm sure you're right and it helps if I turn my head to the side (or even further back towards my shoulder) in the direction of the pedal I'm pressing, as this reinforces the pedal movement in my brain and hopefully in time I'll find I no longer need to do this.

 

I wonder if aircraft designers really wanted the pedals to operate this way or if in the early days they just couldn't think of a way to make it operate the opposite way and by the time someone did come up with an idea, it had become established and too difficult to try and retrain all the pilots?

[Rogue Trooper]

welcome to the world of proper rudders doveman, you gonna love it!

[PureEvil]

think of it as it's a steering wheel, turn right - look right, turn left - look left.

[Shahdoh]

It becomes more apparent when you realize how the peddles are connected. It started with the first airplanes where a cable was connected from that peddle, straight back to the rudder behind them. To pull the rudder to the left, you had to push the left peddle, that cable pulled on the left side of the rudder, thus causing the yaw to the left, with the reverse happening on the right side.

[Oznerol256]

It becomes more apparent when you realize how the peddles are connected. It started with the first airplanes where a cable was connected from that peddle, straight back to the rudder behind them. To pull the rudder to the left, you had to push the left peddle, that cable pulled on the left side of the rudder, thus causing the yaw to the left, with the reverse happening on the right side.

 

Yes. And if you cross the cables from the left and right pedals, the whole thing would work the other way without the need of any complex mechanism. After all, it still is just a convention.

[doveman]

welcome to the world of proper rudders doveman, you gonna love it!

 

Thanks, yeah I'm already enjoying it and it's good exercise for my legs, although I still can't keep the Huey under control when trying to land yet. I really need to get a decent stick next, as my current Thrustmaster Hotas X is really not sensitive or accurate enough for flying helos.

 

I realised early on that it was ridiculous trying to use the stick's twist axis for rudder for several reasons and whilst the rocker on the back of my throttle worked a bit better, it simply doesn't have enough physical range to be able to accurately control the rudder and it's pretty hard to hold it in a specific position as well, so I figured I needed to get a proper rudder if I ever want to get the hang of flying my helos :)

[doveman]

think of it as it's a steering wheel, turn right - look right, turn left - look left.

 

Yeah, it's starting to sink in now thanks :)

[doveman]

It becomes more apparent when you realize how the peddles are connected. It started with the first airplanes where a cable was connected from that peddle, straight back to the rudder behind them. To pull the rudder to the left, you had to push the left peddle, that cable pulled on the left side of the rudder, thus causing the yaw to the left, with the reverse happening on the right side.

 

I figured it was pretty much just how the first airplanes were configured and stuck from there. I guess there's no "right" configuration but they had to chose one and once it was established, there was not really any chance of changing it. It's not really a problem once you know how it works and I'm sure if it had been configured the other way there'd have been people who found that confusing and illogical to start with.

[Devrim]

think of it as it's a steering wheel, turn right - look right, turn left - look left.

This style of thinking is confusing me.

When first time starting to use pedals, I thought same as Doveman. But I was wrong, too. I though that it must have been like a driving a car (steering wheel?) or riding a bicycle. No, it was opposite! But, I managed to re-program my brain in shorter time than I expected.

 

You'll do that too Doveman, and you'll have great fun!

 

...if you cross the cables from the left and right pedals, the whole thing would work the other way without the need of any complex mechanism...

Right, I thought so, too.

[Tone71]

I got my pedals recently too. Somewhat foolishly I also decided this would be a good time to invert my hotas throttle for flying the Shark (pulling back now increases throttle). Ah, I used to be so good at flying that chopper... :)

[doveman]

I got my pedals recently too. Somewhat foolishly I also decided this would be a good time to invert my hotas throttle for flying the Shark (pulling back now increases throttle). Ah, I used to be so good at flying that chopper... :)

 

Heh, thankfully I've always used my throttle like that for the helos so at least that's one thing I don't have to re-learn.

 

I do get confused sometimes though as I use it the opposite (correct) way when flying planes, so this can get ingrained on my brain and I find myself operating it the wrong way when I first get back in the helos but I soon realise my mistake and I'm fine for the rest of the session. :)

 

I sometimes wish I had a proper collective lever but I think I'd miss all the buttons that are on the throttle (some I use for external apps like TS3 and VAC) and I'm thinking about getting an X-55, which will have even more useful controls on the throttle.

[Krunkskimo]

felt like everything was backwards for me too. When you use twist rudders on the stick the right goes out and the left goes in to turn left and on rudders its the opposite so it feels wrong. i thought about inverting my rudders but my chair is a roller so i cant even use the rudders anyways without sliding allover the place.

[cichlidfan]

i thought about inverting my rudders but my chair is a roller so i cant even use the rudders anyways without sliding allover the place.

 

I had that same issue a while back. I picked up a small (24x36" or something like that) area rug with a thick shag pile and a non-skid rug pad. The base of my five wheel chair had to be turned just right to sit on it but once in position, I did not have a problem with it moving.

 

Edited January 28, 2014 by cichlidfan

[doveman]

It's probably meant to be obvious but the manual doesn't say anything about where I'm meant to stick the four velcro strips that came with the pedals.

 

I presume they're meant to be fitted so the velcro side "sticks" to the carpet? There's only enough room on each side for one, so are the other two meant to be stuck on the underside above and below the tension dial?

 

I didn't bother installing the driver software as Windows 7 detected and installed them anyway. I installed the Saitek Programming software but there doesn't really seem much need to use it with the pedals (if I get a decent stick then it will be useful).

 

Can anyone recommend any in-game axis settings for the pedals for the KA-50, UH-1H and A10C or will they be fine on the default settings? I just don't want to hamper myself by learning to fly without having them setup correctly (it's bad enough having to make allowances for my stick!)

[PFunk1606688187]

I always thought of it like this.

 

You're applying force in the direction you want to see the airframe respond. You push the stick to the left to roll left. You pull back on the stick to go up. In a car you turn in the direction you want to the wheels to go.

 

If you think about the rudder twist it remains consistent with this convention. You're twisting in the direction you want the airframe to respond. Also, consider the toe brakes. You press the left toe brake on an airplane to activate only brakes on the left side, and vice versa.

 

In the opposite convention it can get weird though. Imagine taxiing and pushing on your right foot to turn left, then wanting to use differential braking to make the radius tighter you depress your left foot's toe brake.... thats so weird, why would you use your opposite ankle to the one thats actually pushing on the rudder?

 

It can be confusing, but the convention behind it is more consistent than the opposite in my opinion.

 

 

As for axis curvature, for the A-10C I use I think 40. I set it a long time ago and never bothered to change it. Right now my muscle memory is programmed for blind coordinated turns at that setting and it works. At 0 I find its too jerky for smooth flying because you're almost never going to be using the top 30-40% of the rudder input unless you're badly damaged and can't trim it out for some reason. Even in a strong cross wind I don't need much rudder to line up for the touchdown.

 

However I have the cheaper Saitek Pro Flight pedals and they've come off their track a few times so they're not as good as they used to be. They also require a deadzone of 5 so my setting may not be relevant to you.

[Tone71]

For the Shark I set a slight curve of about 5, to lessen the initial response sensitivity (around the centre). For the Hog I've set it at around 25 (I think, not at computer at the mo), otherwise NWS is way too sensitive!

[cichlidfan]

It's probably meant to be obvious but the manual doesn't say anything about where I'm meant to stick the four velcro strips that came with the pedals.

 

I presume they're meant to be fitted so the velcro side "sticks" to the carpet? There's only enough room on each side for one, so are the other two meant to be stuck on the underside above and below the tension dial?

 

My guess on the Velcro, is that it was intended for attaching them to a smooth surface. I used it to attach mine to the metal plate in the front of my seat frame (not what's in the picture above. There I did not use anything to hold them to the floor.).

[doveman]

I always thought of it like this.

 

You're applying force in the direction you want to see the airframe respond. You push the stick to the left to roll left. You pull back on the stick to go up. In a car you turn in the direction you want to the wheels to go.

 

If you think about the rudder twist it remains consistent with this convention. You're twisting in the direction you want the airframe to respond. Also, consider the toe brakes. You press the left toe brake on an airplane to activate only brakes on the left side, and vice versa.

 

In the opposite convention it can get weird though. Imagine taxiing and pushing on your right foot to turn left, then wanting to use differential braking to make the radius tighter you depress your left foot's toe brake.... thats so weird, why would you use your opposite ankle to the one thats actually pushing on the rudder?

 

It can be confusing, but the convention behind it is more consistent than the opposite in my opinion.

 

Yeah, thinking about it like that I'm sure it would get confusing mixing L & R up for different functions!

 

As for axis curvature, for the A-10C I use I think 40. I set it a long time ago and never bothered to change it. Right now my muscle memory is programmed for blind coordinated turns at that setting and it works. At 0 I find its too jerky for smooth flying because you're almost never going to be using the top 30-40% of the rudder input unless you're badly damaged and can't trim it out for some reason. Even in a strong cross wind I don't need much rudder to line up for the touchdown.

 

However I have the cheaper Saitek Pro Flight pedals and they've come off their track a few times so they're not as good as they used to be. They also require a deadzone of 5 so my setting may not be relevant to you.

 

I've got the same pedals so I hope they last a reasonable amount of time. Thanks for the axis curvature tip, I'll try it out and see if it feels OK :)

[doveman]

For the Shark I set a slight curve of about 5, to lessen the initial response sensitivity (around the centre). For the Hog I've set it at around 25 (I think, not at computer at the mo), otherwise NWS is way too sensitive!

 

Thanks, I'll try them out :)

[doveman]

My guess on the Velcro, is that it was intended for attaching them to a smooth surface. I used it to attach mine to the metal plate in the front of my seat frame (not what's in the picture above. There I did not use anything to hold them to the floor.).

 

You might be right. I notice it has some mounting holes to bolt it to something but I guess if the surface you want to attach it to doesn't have matching holes and you can't (or aren't allowed to) make any, then the Velcro could be used.

 

I've got a piece of wood I was thinking of attaching them to but I suspect that will still slide around if it's not secured down itself, so that's why I thought maybe the velcro was meant to go on the pedals or the underside of whatever non-bolted down surface they're attached to.

 

Thinking about it, I don't think velcro would even latch onto most carpets, so I doubt that's what they're intended for. It's only because I've got very shortpile carpet tiles that it might work :)