HB_Zander

There's not much in common. Aviron is doing the C.2 first, the Cheetah C has more in common with the Mirage F1 than the Kfir C.2 and even that is a little. They did say that they plan to follow with a C.7, which has a lot in common with the Cheetah E, maybe like 80%, slightly different aerodynamics due to different canards and wings and weight, different fuel system, different engine, different EW systems but avionics is about 90% the same and WDNS should be exactly the same functionally with the exception of different weapons and sensors. The Cheetah C can only borrow a little from the Kfir C.7, it seems though the WDNS in the Cheetah C is an extension of what is in the Kfir C.7 but I know almost nothing about the WDNS in the Cheetah E/D/Kfir C.7 - I've just seen MFD screens here and there that I recognize from the C's WDNS. And to reiterate, I just did scans of the Impala and Rooivalk and Cheetah E and D because they were there, there aren't any plans at the moment for those until the Cheetah C is done which itself is not a guarantee yet.

Me too, with many more units to have an entire theatre, like Combat360 SAAFOPS was planned to be. The biggest issue for these kind of assets is 3D modelling, especially a map which is more modelling than programming compared to an aircraft module. During last year I tried to find someone who can help with the 3D modelling. What I found was a few who were interested from eastern Europe but that is paying someone's full time salary for a few months out of my pocket because they would only be doing it for the combination of income and experience/portfolio, with no real interest in the specific aircraft. They were looking for full time employment and not a hobby. Another issue is the specificity of the aircraft, making it a hard sell on model market websites for those artists, especially at a higher quality and price. I can't pay someone's full time salary for a few months but I was able to pay for something at times. I discovered that the quality I was aiming for was in this gap between "cheap" and modern module quality, i.e. I can pay for more than cheap but no one is interested in doing more than cheap but less than modern module quality. (I'm aiming for old F-5E level at least). I am not interested in taking the cheap route as I know I will want to redo it again and that is a waste I am not willing to pay for. My financial situation also varied, at times I could do it, and at times I rather spent it on something that was more immediately useful. I also looked around locally where there would be people who have a genuine interest in the aircraft and the history and who might share the same goal. There are very few people in South Africa with the skill set, and those that do have the skill set and passion are like many others rather spending their spare time doing side jobs that produce income to supplement their main income as the purchasing power is really not that great here and declining rapidly. Something good that came out of last year was the 3D scans that were done at the Swartkop AFB museum. I purchased an iPhone 15 Pro specifically for the photogrammetry capabilities and then I flew there to get scans and take photos of the Cheetah C's undercarriage (the other one I took photos of had an incomplete undercarriage) and to do a scan of the interior cockpit shape as that is quite a complex shape. I also took the opportunity to take photos and scans of the aircraft itself as well as some of its munitions and a bunch of other aircraft that were available. The people at the museum were very enthusiastic to help me and they even opened the Cheetah E's cockpit for me that has not been opened in at least 10 years, it was quite a struggle (the hydraulic piston no longer works so it is not really safe). They also don't usually open the Cheetah C's cockpit, it is quite incomplete with missing components which doesn't really matter since I already have all that, but I got to meet the legendary Cobus Toerien who helped to open the cockpit of the Cheetah C. I am attaching some photos of the scans, some of the exterior scans drifted, they are from an iPhone, it is not a professional scanning device. The scans aren't copied and pasted into a DCS model, they are used as a reference for the positioning and size and shape, so the model is modeled on top of the photogrammetry reference model. There are different levels of scanning that I did, some are more detail oriented, and other less detail but more reliable for larger objects.

No there is not. They are focused on the Kfir. If there were collaboration then that would take away from the development of the Kfir, and not to mention that the Cheetah C can currently only be a mod where the Kfir is a full module.

I have some specific details on day to day events, like take off times and locations, formations, loadouts etc. My dream is to one day tell some of these stories through Angolan Theatre campaigns. But a map requires a lot of 3D modelling and that is a big obstacle when it comes to South African content. After a few years of working on a project (Cheetah C mod, not related to border war I know but the documentation and resources I have on it is unrivaled so I remain committed to it), I realized that the only people who are interested enough to make a commitment to working on these things are South Africans. And I have also realized most South Africans who are interested either don't have the skillsets or have the skillsets but cannot commit due to other side projects making part of their income. With the Cheetah C mod requiring 3D modelling, I have only encountered a few people from eastern Europe who seemed interested but not interested enough to make the commitment, or requiring me to pay their monthly salary which I cannot do out of my pocket. The modelling of one single aircraft, or a map, is at least a multi month endeavor. I have also met someone who can help with the CFD but even though he is a South African with a passion for SAAF aircraft, he could not commit due to his side projects taking priority as they produce income. There are some people who worked on an Impala mod but that also came to a halt as far as I can see, looks like due to a lack of interest in development work. I believe we can get a fleshed out Angolan Theatre in about a decade or two if we can overcome this obstacle of not having people with enough interest to make a commitment and the skills required to see a project through. I am only a programmer, and I understand how DCS aircraft are developed, and that is where I can spend my efforts. We have some documentation on Impalas and Mirages and maybe even the Buccaneer (I can check with someone maintaining the one at Ysterplaat), not enough for official modules but enough for EFM mods. I know there are people at Ysterplaat and Swartkop who will help when asked, they even opened the Cheetah E and C cockpits for me after years of not being opened. We also have many photos of the region from the time, especially the people in the `South African Border War: Operation Savannah` Discord channel for Arma and Squad mods. Maybe we just need to congregate and put together what we have and then decide if we can achieve something with what we have, and then what we are going to work on and take it one project at a time.

@Stratos There is a guy going by the name of "Sprinkbok" who made a mod for Squad and did some really nice work for that mod, he made some of the vehicles. Currently he is a bit busy and no longer has the time to work on it but just pointing out some nice modelling work that has already been done. Currenthill has made some nice asset packs for some countries, maybe he would be willing to make a ZA pack one day.

Hello! thank you for your interest, I'm always surprised by the interest from outside South Africa. It is going very slow, basically no significant coding at the moment. We need to progress with modelling the exterior model which will hopefully pick up in the first few months of 2024. I will post an update once there has been progress on that front.

That would be nice yes, but unfortunately I don't think that will happen. I could be wrong, but a lot of things would have to be different for it to become a possibility. I have not given up on that possibility, even if I have to let someone else do it (which will be very sad for me but I would like a Cheetah C module more than not having one), I still explore avenues to get rid of the various problems in the way.

Me and friends. And note, this forum post was made before I started doing work for Heatblur, as "TheEscapist___", no association.

Here are some of those photos I mentioned in my previous comment

We will take it as far as we can but it is very unlikely to ever become an official module. We will have a fully clickable cockpit and its systems are modelled with the EFM. However, we have been struggling with 3D modelling the last few months. After discussing with more experienced module developers and modellers they all urge us to get the external model done before we spend too much effort on the cockpit, the cockpit should follow the external model. They also emphasized the importance of using photogrammetry to make the model. And a general update: I was at Makhado AFB in December where I captured pictures of a Cheetah C. I took about 2400-2500 pictures of the exterior. We don't have an experienced enough modeller to take on the job. I cannot pay for something of this magnitude at this stage but will be able to some time in the future, months from now, not weeks. I did my best with the photos but I don't believe they are photogrammetry material because of the limitations I had with the surroundings and the time it took to capture them. About a full day and the sun is not stationary. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed

We have started work on the Cheetah C over here in the link below. I dream of creating what Combat360 - SAAFOPS set out to do but for DCS. The Cheetah C was chosen because someone wanted to make a Cheetah and asked for information, but I was only able to get good information on the C variant, so C it is.

The work in progress MFD model, it is subject to change or get updated.

Hello, We have been working on a Cheetah C for DCS the past 2-3 months and we have been making good progress on developing some systems in the EFM. We decided to make the Discord server public for anyone wanting to tag along. It is still very far from something enjoyable so it will take a while, like more than a year to my rough estimation. We are developing this for ourselves to enjoy so we want to have it as best as we can and therefore we are going to take it as far as we can, even try to make it a module if we can meet all the requirements for ED. Even though it looks promising so far, we are not there yet, we still have two or three holes to fill in our collection of information before we can consider that. Otherwise it will be a mod without the features the SDK has to offer. About the Cheetah C The Cheetah is a third generation multi-mission combat aircraft developed by Atlas Corporation (now Denel Aviation) for the SAAF (South African Air Force). It was to replace the Mirage F-1AZ and Mirage F-1CZ fighters during the Angolan war in the 80's to be able to take on the MiG-23 with its superior radar and longer range missiles. Sanctions were placed on South Africa at the time so acquisition of any weaponry was not a trivial task and South Africa was forced to be self sufficient. However, with no prior experience in developing aircraft other than modifications to Mirages and local assembly, South Africa looked for more feasible solutions. Israel had a close eye on South Africa and were already prepared when South Africa approached. Other variants were first developed, D - a trainer, and E - an interim variant while the more advanced C variant was being developed. Each variant has its own origins with the E, D and R variants more closely related. The C's were likely to have been made from old low hour Kfir C2 and possibly some C1 frames with technology borrowed from newer aircraft such as the Kfir C10 and Lavi. The engine, Snecma ATAR 09-K50-C11 from Mirages as South Africa already had many and could not get the more powerful American made General Electric engines from Israel. The Cheetah's were retired from the SAAF in 2008, today they are flying with the Ecuadorian Air Force and Draken International. Where we are (2022/07) 3D Model: Basic cockpit layout (very ugly) Basic external model (inaccurate) We have a nice clickable MFD and MFCD. Very nice accelerometer. A few other gauges and switches that aren't good enough to be mentioned. The cockpit is currently being remodeled by someone more capable. External model will also be remodeled by someone that is proficient. Systems: We have a 90% complete electrical system. The other 10% account for things I overlooked that I am not aware of. All buses are implemented, connected with relays and switches, and ready to be used by the avionics and other consumers, the alternators are connected to the engine with logic to simulate real behavior: Battery Two alternators Two transformer rectifiers Inverter There are a total of 5 AC buses and 4 DC buses. Needs proper testing once we have progressed with the cockpit 3D model. About 75% complete fuel system. All fuel tanks internal and external are implemented (including the negative-G accumulator). They have their capacities, fuel quantities and unusable fuel amounts. Refueling procedures for aerial and gravity refueling (the order in which the tanks are filled changes as well as the amount that is refuellable). The Cheetah C has a switch to change the order in which the tanks are depleted to maintain centre of gravity that is within safety parameters as fuel is consumed - this switch is implemented (no switch model though). The fuel system still requires its fuel pumps and we still need to attach the correct external tanks given a specific external fuel amount from DCS - not difficult, just still a todo. And of course **a lot of testing** is still outstanding. Engine is about 5-10% complete. It idles at the correct RPM for any given altitude. It consumes fuel in a seemingly accurate manner but changes to the engine performance will influence this so it is still too soon to say. The calculations may be correct, the values it is using in the calculations are not correct yet. Many systems of the engine still needs to be implemented. In terms of avionics we have: MFD: On/Off switch with "INDEX" display/menu and the entire "LIST" display family (display family -> collection of pages and subpages). The LIST display family consists of a series of "checklist" or "notes" displays that are made by the pilot during mission planning, these are typically mission specific. This information is loaded onto the aircraft via a data cartridge which we simulate with a JSON file that is editable. We include preset data cartridge files for each map as these include approach procedures for airfields relevant to the mission to give one example. A small desktop application is also in the works to create, edit and load preset data cartridges. MFCD: It is currently only showing a work in progress TSD that displays heading, heading circles, current position, radar targets, waypoints and airfields. We still need to add other symbology like railways, roads, rivers and the flight path. HUD: One of the many modes are currently work in progress, the most used mode - TACNAV. Accelerometer. Our immediate focus (2022/07) 3D Model: Good quality basic cockpit shape. Electrical panel - to test the electrical system. Circuit breaker panel - to further test the electrical system. Fuel panel - to test the fuel system. NMS (Navigation Mode Selector) switch - to interact with various modes and continue development on HUD, MFD and MFCD. Engine start panel. Systems: Test and finish the electrical system. "Finish" is short of adding failures to the electrical system when it is getting abused which will definitely be added. In parallel with the above connect MFD, HUD, gauges etc with the electrical system. Finish fuel system and integrate pumps with electrical system. Continue development on the engine's many subsystems. Discord link: https://discord.gg/fRXXvMuxjs

I already messaged you on Discord after your first comment, I recognized your name from DCS ZA Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would also love a decent Cheetah, I would prefer for the mod to be a module but ja. The Cheetah C throttle has more buttons on it, like a full HOTAS, the Mirage one looked a bit naked when I last saw it. Yes we need to do something about it. Dino Cattaneo made an Impala for Prepar3D and is now about to release MB-339 module for DCS with the IFE team that they formed. Mirage F-1 is coming and there are manuals somewhere online for both the AZ and CZ even with the amendments included. MiG-21 is already there, MiG-23 has been started by Razbam if I remember. We need the map more than anything else. I know of someone on Reddit making SANDF things for a game, I can’t remember if it was Arma or something different, might be the same guy you mentioned but we can at least ask and see. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That one. The aircraft itself is very illusive with its history, but things look promising at this stage in terms of research and specs and limitations and other things, although nothing guaranteed yet. Yeah that turbosquid model is not quite a Cheetah. I would like for him and Combat360 to get back in the game. And this topic shows there is at least a bit of interest from his side. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes that’s also what I was referring to when I said we need to prove that we are capable. Well we can do that at least, static objects are easy simple. I have done one before but I still need to make one good quality one. I am no modeler so I buy my models on TurboSquid etc, but the missions I make them for are not SAAF related. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes! I wholeheartedly agree with this. I sent OP a PM regarding a very related mod I am involved with and possibly getting him or his team involved, I also asked if I could get involved with the plans he has for DCS but he has not read my message yet (sent a week ago so still early). But I see he is very active with other things as well, filming etc. I am also willing to contribute my free time, but there's not a lot of it, I can make myself free most weekday evenings and then weekends as well. I am a software developer with mostly Java experience, moderate C++ experience and a bunch of other languages as well. Lua is still a bit new to me, but my bigger learning curve currently is the DCS ecosystem and how things talk to each other. I am currently giving all my free time to the aircraft mod I am involved with so at least I am conquering that learning curve I mentioned. And to answer your first question, they did, there was a comment made on a YouTube video where OP himself mentioned that he still has all the files and I quote "oh what to do"............. To propose to ED we would have to meet some requirements though, we would need to prove that we are capable, which is difficult because it is like a chicken and egg problem. And with aircraft you have to have declassified official documentation to provide them a way to test and prove that your aircraft performs like the real thing, which is not a problem for at least one of the SAAF aircraft.

I also would like some info or sources about some of these marks, like what the target was, date and time etc. Great map thanks!

When I swap out the Mirage 2000 with a Mirage III mod then it's no longer a problem.

Any news on this? I've also just encountered this while trying to make a mission with Mirage 2000 role playing as Mirage III. They need to scramble from Ramat David, reach WP2 and do fighter sweep. But they take too long to get to WP2 because of the zig zagging. I have tried changing their role to CAP and Nothing but they keep on zig zagging, at first I thought they were maybe searching for enemies.

I really want to have Israel campaigns of all operations, a lot of them are in the South. I'm trying to recreate the ones that fit on the current map from Jane's IAF now but the AI are dumbasses and demotivating. I am now sucked into rather playing Jane's IAF again

I don't know if this is a separate issue but ships don't sink at Batumi port when I bomb them, I thought the water might be shallow there as well. I have no idea if this is realistic or not though, I am no expert.

This seems to be fixed for me in the latest release. I also don't see the weird behavior of AI aircraft before they exploded anymore.