IASGATG

Here's a crazy fun idea. Blueflag 'Scat Missile Mod edition. :)

IMO things will just be getting harder for REdfor in the years to come in a late 80's environment. You'll be fighting F-14's with AIM-54's and F-18's with AGM-88's whilst you're still equipped with R-27R's and T's.

Nah, just gonna be a typo by Greg. We've done this set up before, don't worry. :)

I'm completely okay with this if Russia doesn't get the A-10, the UH-1, the Gazelle, the M2K, KA-50 or the Su-25T. Obviously Bluefor would lose the A-10C, the SU-25, KA-50 and Mi-8.

Greg, hurry up and get the stats out so we can definitely prove once and for all that bluefor teamstacking was enough to overcome redfor exploiting. :^)

The ingenious level that people exploit to try and overcome their short fallings as a pilot.

Okay, lets quickly break down the farp to airbase distances and we'll quickly see where there is a hole in your logic. EJ98 Farp - Sochi 40nmi, Maykop 38nmi GJ35 Farp - Sukh 68nmi, Minvody 60nmi, Nalchik 78nmi LN71 Farp - Kutaisi 50nmi, Nalchik 58nmi, Beslan 65nmi MM59 Farp - Beslan 50nmi, Tbilisi 59nmi So looking here it seems balancedish, but, perhaps blue favouried a little bit. This is where things gets harder though. First we'll look at the MM05 farp, this farp exists purely to help Redfor (Or Bluefor in a worst case situation) and is a place to multi-prong Kutaisi or Tbilisi. MM05 Farp -Kutasis 63nmi, Tiblisi 54nmi The same is true for the GH22 farp, which whilst is used a little for refuel ops or to take back the coast is used, is primarily the spearhead for Redfor chopper operations on the coast. GH22 Farp - Batumi (Furthest base that isn't Sochi, which already has a much closer farp listed above) 59nmi. The same set up is true on the Redfor side, with the DK58 and to some extent the EJ07 Farp. The EJ07 is another back and forth Sochi farp, putting itself 52 from Sochi/Maykop and 57 from Gelenz. DK 58 however is within 45nmi of all the mainland Russian airbases, making effectively the GH22 farp for Redfor. This is the only farp in Mainland Russia compared to the GH22 and the MM05 Farp's in Georgia. All of this brings us back to the Nalchik problem. The one airfield I haven't covered is Mozdok. Mozdok is not a small base, housing fighters, strikers and helicopters for Redfor. The helicopter spawn for bluefor is LN71 - 90nmi away. This is 50% greater than any of the distances listed above. So without getting 2 Mi-8 at Nalchik, a farp would have to be put into PAK4. However the problem is, there is no where to put it. No where that wouldn't throw the balance off even more. Now I know you're going to read all of this, disagree and get all grumpy and say I'm wrong. But unfortunately I'm not. I've listed all the numbers plainly and the numbers aren't biased. In short, to make things fair, 2 Hip's isn't much to ask.

Rather than 90 miles through the mountains from Tbilisi to mozdok? I checked the map. Losing those mi-8s is brutal. Last night was point in fact when Nalchik was closed due to a bug on restart. Took an extra few hours to take vody.

Greg, if you take blue Mi-8's out of Nalchik, can you take Red helicopters out of the Beslan/Tibilisi Farp? THat or add a FARP to PAK 3 to balance out the chopper flight. Removing Mi-8's from Nalchik makes our helicopter flights > 90nmi for Mozdok. Redfor has no bases that are less than 50nmi from a helicopter spawn site.

Missiles break down like this. 1) How the maths equations are written. The equations are long, complicated and need to work for both sub, trans and supersonic in some capacity. Not only this but for changing AoA and all kind of stuff. If the maths is wrong everything else falls down. 2) The profiling of the missile itself. What values the equations are told the missile has. Put into simple terms, this is it's mass, its thrust, its Cd, Cl, Cg, etc etc. If any of these are off the missile falls down. 3) Guiding the missile. Different missiles have different guidance logics that are mostly an educated guess as to how they work. For your early day missiles like your R-3, R-60, 9Ps, 7E's, etc, this is relatively easy as they are pretty much just PN guided with maybe a couple of variables to help stop them flying into the ground. As the missiles get more advanced, so does the guidance. We run into a speculative wall as it just how smart these missiles are. We have the luxuary that as a video game we can give the missile perfect information about the target in real time. What % of this omniscience should we give the missile to try and simulate actual guidance. So we probably go for APN guidance for your 27R's and 7M's. Then you get into stuff like lofting which add a whole new level of ass-pain for the guidance to make missiles like the 54, 77, 120 get the ranges their meant to have. 4) Countermeasure/Counter Measure Rejection. What flares do to an IR seeker is very different to what chaff does to a radar seeker. However from how I understand the game engine, this isn't the case. What this results in is a situation where dumping out 400 flares is really good against an IR missile because the IR missile will always go for the hotter source (Unless we get FPA seekers like in the Xray). Then we have logic that helps reject that that the Mike and the 73M might have, but how good that is.. (We have videos of QF-4's defeating 9M's with flare with no maneuver so probably not that well). The problem is this means that dumping out a shit ton of chaff will have the same effect on a radar guided missile. It comes a bit skewy because maneuvers are needed too and even more complicated stuff that is outside of my area of expertise. What does this mean? Well we have compromises we have to make for complexity sake, for processing cycles, for netcode. These can add up. I imagine this is partly why we see missiles lose 1.5 worth of Mach when they pull 30g for half a second, the maths is oversimplified for the AoA calculations. This is why we see missiles in level flight not travelling the expected amount of distance because of errors in the missile values. This is why we have missiles pulling 15g's off the rail against targets 30nmi's away. This is why we have the ability to defeat R27R's with a couple of chaff bundles. But hey, what do I know? I'm just an armchair general right?

I agree, I don't make the rules though. I mean on page seven I posted to pictures which are but a small excerpt of what is available. But... Alas it doesn't fit with certain.. doctrines.

Good job we have proven and verified missile test data from the USAF and USN. Shame it isn't enough.

Always worth a try. :D

This is a much better situation than what we have now. :)

I don't get why these threads have so many words when 3 pictures solves the entire conversation. AIM-7F AIM-7F R-27ER R-27R The DLZ charts are DLZ charts so treat them as such. As we can see the missiles are under performing their ranges by about 50%. Wow 'Scat you're right again thanks so much. Oh you guys, you're welcome. :^)

AIM-7F Rmax at 20kft, head to head, Mach 1.8 closure. What's the Pk at this Rmax? How are you defining Pk?

Applying the same 50% error margin that the Flanker has, the F-15 is at least 13.5G max limit at all weights, speeds and altitudes. Eagle > Flanker #SorrynotSorry

"Insane G" = 18g for a fraction of a second in the most forced and unrealistic maneuver possible. In light of a month ago the Flanker being able to reliably pull 40g sustained for 2 seconds. :^)

Again, it should be noted that the safe structural limit for the F-15C with 3 bags at supersonic is still 9g. I can also say that I've never pulled more than 14g in the F-15 in 5 years of flying. I'd be curious to see the track to see how you made the eagle pull that hard? I assume you turned off the entire CAS and did and inverted snap pull?

The problem is we fly a sim though. There are lots of things we're missing that real world pilots gets. The ability to actually have the resolution of my eye vs my monitor would be much preferred over just about anything else. We all lack that "flying by the seat" feeling because there is no tactile response. Whenever you speak to pilots about flying it's almost always about feeling. Remember the Luftwaffe pilot who was talking about the FW-190 a couple of years back? Sim nerds were asking him all sorts of technical questions, and the response to almost all of them wasn't "Oh the exact airspeed would be 652kph when I am at 7500m and the QFE is 29.64". It was "Oh, well I just did what felt right and what sounded right and went and did it." True in this case you could argue age, but you know you'd be being dishonest. xxx

Well the diagram says 14°/s for the F-15A. The actual F-15C rates in at around 13°/s sustained. The A and the C are different jets though, so the A might be able to sustain it better with the lower weight. That being said a completely clean and bingo Eagle only hits about 13.5°/s. This is all for that speed/altitude. As for your concerns about 0.9M, it's actually a pretty good benchmark number for that altitude engagement. It's only like 460kts CAS up at that alt. I'd be curious to see what numbers people have for the other jets to weigh the validity of the picture.

This thread has boiled down to realism vs balance. So here is the question to the dev's and the community, it's a thought experiment so don't get hung up on the real life ramifications and the obvious "But 'Scat obviously you can't because bla bla bla". If reliable information was provided about the Mirage's jammer, how it works and how it effects other radar systems, would it be implemented? Is the answer yes? Or does it also have to hinge off of "Well it depends on if it makes the Mirage's jammer worse than everyone else's or better." I feel as though we're too happy to undermodel aircraft for the sake of balance.

Apart from the g limits for the aim54 which makes it possible to defeat through maneuver regardless of energy/speed. The same cannot be said for the 120.

Yeah, the phrasing is very misleading, because active literally means to emit to receive. Passive literally means not to emit to receive. As for these "Long range, high alt, high speed shots". You're free to try them but you'll still miss every shot until around 12nmi. Shooting against easy AI that does a 2g pull to the left 10 seconds before impact isn't the same as fighting a player.

That superior American technology though. ;)