Solty

USAAF training thing is overrated. Pilots knew how to fly and that's it. Many trained at different types and had no idea how air combat works. They trained at P39, got Europe and got P51B which they saw for the first time and got to talk with a P38 pilot who told them to turn to the right against the 109. And that's it. That is why pilots had a saying, "fly five and stay alive" because u understood combat by that time. I told you already that P51 is a better performer even at low altitudes than bf109G and Fw190A. And is capable of keeping with them at most speed ranges and has better overall maneuverability to the 109 due to high speed handling and is comparable at medium speed. The only advantage that 109 has is low speed sustained turn. 190 has better low speed roll rate and more powerful armament. The difference in ROC is negligible because p51 can gain enough speed to follow a 109 in climb.

Yes, and I said it myself in one of the threads, the mission will always be artificially changed because its a video game and not a real war. And I am not asking for a real war. Rather disputing your claims that P-51's ability to fight is only work of propaganda. 'Common' and 'standard', thats just semantics. You very well know what I mean. That doesn't mean that the pilot's didn't know what they were facing or that they didn't care. A quote that supports this is from Don Bryan from 352nd FG "The P-51(D) would outperform the normal 109 and the 190 at any altitude." So they did care, and had vague, but some knowledge what they were fighting. As I said those new planes were known to the pilots. Mission is important and mission objectives as well and I think it was discussed to the death how pilot training, pilot skill affects fighting and how all that changes the idea. There were accounts of combating German fighters at low altitude, like during Operation Bodenplatte where P-51's showed they are not at a great disadvantage there. Battle of Y-29 is the best example of that, where Germans lost 24 airplanes and not a single P-51 was shot down. Finally, I have a question for you. What is maneuvrability for you? Because I feel your defenition is different than mine.

I think you need to read a bit more about the Mustang and you will come to a different conclusion. The P-51 was not created for escort missions, it was converted to such a role with P-51B/C/D which had an added fuselage fuel tank and wing drop tanks. P-51 was an aircraft built for the British as a replacement aircraft for the Curtiss P-40. It was suppose to be faster and more maneuverable than the P40 and meet other requirements that RAF had. It met all of them and exceeded them as well. The aircraft was an excellent dogfighter. Compared to the standard German Bf109G6 and Fw190A7 from late 1943-1944, when P-51B was introduced, the Mustang has shown superiority in maneuvrability and speed especially at high altitude. Many P-51B/C's were upgraded to the new V-1650-7 engine (same as the P-51D) before the P-51D was even complete and were flying with 8th AAF with 72' and 75' MAP. You can read more about different P-51 models here: http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors ----------------------- When P-51D arrived, Germany's main aircraft were still Bf109G6 and Fw190A7,8. A month after Bf109G14 was introduced and few months down the road first Fw190D9 and then K4 came along. Both of those aircraft were made in small quantities by the end of 1944. So they were barely noticable. Although they were noticed. They were refered to as long nose Fw190 and Me109M or "the Mean 109" (109K4). In a direct comparison, of the standard engagement between the P-51 and 109 of 1944 would look like this, a Bf109G6 (most mass produced aircraft of Luftwaffe) vs the P-51B/C/D (depending on a month of operation). The Bf109G6 was still built in 1945 even though K4 and G14 were already long in production. P-51D could match both the 109G6 and the G14 in maneuvering (as we can even see in DCS against the K4) but additionally was faster and far easier to handle than the 109, especially at high speed. This is a factor that cannot be replicated in simulation. You can only imagine how in a tight and small 109, the G force sits on you, like an elefant making you black out while you are fighting with the stick froces that progressively rise at high speeds. While, a P-51 pilot has a G-Suit and his airplane is light on the controls. I suggest reading combat reports from the USAAF and watching guncameras and few more documentaries on how the P-51 got its reputation. What I think is the main issue here is miscommunication. The P-51D was a great fighter. But it was not indestructable. Many fighters were shot down. What we are talking here is comparisson of planes. And its not as if German aircraft were bad or incapable, but the P-51D even though it has 6xtimes the range of a German airplane, can still keep with it in combat and can disengage at will, because it is faster. If you read how most dogfights went, (of the victorious pilots). They got into a high speed turn, P-51 was outturning the 109. After half of the turn, 109 dives for safety, Mustang follows, catches him, shoots. German either bails or dies. The end. Of course there were complicated dogfights, as the one that 3xAce, Bud Anderson had in his P-51B vs Bf109G. But these were a rarity among most normal engagements which were concluded within seconds and mostly the pilot, didn't even see the enemy aircraft that shot him down. :smartass::pilotfly:

It is intended in the Bf109 to keep the airplane level with your rudder, using your legs. You should not be able to trim the 109's ailerons or rudder during flight. That would be basically a cheat, because it goes outside the intended capability of the airplane.

In a conflict like Desert Strom or Afghanistan where USAF has enormous advantage, achieving air superiority within days, and fighting against ill-equiped and badly trained insurgets and partisans or retreating and already broken armies, the A-10 is capable enough. But modern battlefield with tons of equipment like Pantsir, Tunguska etc., and possible enemy threat of many MiG29s and Su27s and many other aircraft, the A-10 is just a sitting duck. It beares the name "Thunderbolt II" as in, it was to be successor to that great aicraft. You know what is different? P-47 was a fighter, that was adopted to be a ground pounder. A-10 is CAS only. P-47 was tough and reliable, and still some units lost 300% of their men in combat, and especially during ground attack. While still beeing one of the best fighter aircraft of WW2, beeing able to tackle Fw190 and Bf109 in combat. And that plane was realy resistant to the weapons of the 1940's. But now, with all the new Radar guided and heat-seeking missles, the A-10 is going to go down quickly in any "normal" conflict. Assymerical conflicts do not show the real picture. Sure pilots can like it, and it might have fans. But just as the P-47 was phased out by jets. Just like that, A-10 will be phased out by the Stealth multipurpose aircraft. To me, there are better means to do the job already. AH-64's that can fire 16 missles at the same time at 16 different targets and can realy stay within operational range of suported units and be rearmed in the middle of a field. UAVs that can use Hellfire missles and finaly a good laser designator for the F-35 to drop a LGB. A-10 is old, and while it's cool, just as many aicraft before it. It is old and easy to kill on a modern day battlefield. It needs all other airfoce units to keep it alive and it still can get destroyed by typical ground fire like MANPADS and cannons from APC's, tanks, etc. It has to fly low, and it is kinda slow.:cry:

I flew long enough in all the other sims and DCS to know what I am talking about. The P-51D currently is able achieve its top speed during a dive quick enough, so you can disengage quite effectively and drag the 109K4, but the K4 will catch up to you if you fly uncoordinated or run out of altitude too quickly. G14 wouldn't be able to do that. Therfore your argument is invalid. Also, G14 has very similar turn/climb capablity to K4 but it is slower. In your effort to discredit the Mustang you have painted the pinacle of 109 development as inferior to its predecesor. :doh: K4 is better than G14, no doubt about that. And we have shown we can still run from them and even dogfight them even if our Mustangs are underpowered.:pilotfly:

Well, all I am expecting something on the level of CloD or at least BOS.

Yep, exactly it all depends on the bullet and where it hits and how hard it hits. .50cal looses a lot of its killing power due to this simplistic DM. We have great sources to see how those .50cals work IRL thanks to the internet and some good people that shared those videos. Exact moment where gun cam footage starts and continues nearly till the end of the video: https://youtu.be/MCiHa0h-6Rs?t=20m18s

Even though I managed to keep the engine running for a long time, I have to agree that sometimes it just likes to quit. Yesterday I flew for 5 min continous WEP and nothing happened during combat. Then I put my throttle at continuous power setting and not even a minute has passed as my engine stopped. Earlier I've landed and refueled and everything was fine and I put 25'hg and engine seized on the ground. I also think that those operational limits which apply to keep the engine healthy between many missions, were taken as absolute limits.

Of course not. Because it was war, not a game. IRL those missions were flown for 6 to 8 hours. Who wants to sit for that long in front of their PC and wait for a sudden death? And you asked, Air quake missions are not ASF missions. They are just what they are, people respawning and getting kills. You cannot win air superiority in these types of missions, they are too limited in scope and people can respawn. 8th AAF of the USAAF was doing a lot of ASF and escort during 1944 and 1945. They broke the German back, because they were allowed, since Doolittle took control, to pursue the German aircraft and they ended up on the deck. ASF is not only waiting for the enemy to come up. It is destruction of the enemy air force in any means necessary. So bombing airfields and factories and shooting down airplanes whenever they appear also wins air superiority. A good documentary on the subject:

Exactly:thumbup:

If we had 72'hg the P-51D would be fine within these mission parameters. Yes, it is not an interceptor, but it would be faster than the K4 and turn better than the D9, and that is enough to say that it would be capable. Even though both airplanes can climb and accelerate better. Right now it is the K4 that makes every fight a nightmare, because even inexperienced pilots can have an upperhand. That is mitigated by a wingman, but P-51D should never be in a position where it is slower than the 109.

To me it is worse that imposters. Firstly, dots unnaturally pop in. Secondly they are visible through the airplane. So I can track someone who is under my wing. I prefer large imposters and this kinda does nothing to improve the gameplay for me. Sorry.

That is how I read it as well.

Thats modern P-51's, that have their equipment and feuselage tank taken out which changes CG. It was discussed before and there is an excerpt from P-51D manual that says the airplane has very low stick forces.. Page 67 "Caution" paragraf. "Instead of 6pounds per G of acceleration, you excert only 1 1⁄2 pounds, the stick forces reversing as acceleration exceeds 4G" [ame=http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/a/Alliierte/P%2051%20Pilot%20manual.pdf]http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/a/Alliierte/P%2051%20Pilot%20manual.pdf[/ame]

Real life sources say that the airplane becomes two handed at 550kph. Which means the airplane becomes so stiff you cannot use one hand to maneuver. So I would imagine that at 400kph it would loose a bit of agillity due to rising stick forces. Especially on aileron control as the cockpit is so tight, it actually hinders stick movement to the sides.

Thank you :)

Hello. Sorry to ask again, but now we have the new "integrity check", can we still use mods on the server? I've made this mod some time ago. It uses tracer's made by ED and another sound mod that changes the gunsound of the .50cal to suit me better. Will this meet with a ban? Or is this kind of modding allowed? [ame] [/ame] Thank you for your time ;)

Thank you Squirrel, but it seems there must have been a misunderstanding at one point and I want to clarify it. So let me clarify: Do not turn with a 109 for prolonged time . And yes, I forgot to mention the lag pursuit curve which allows the Mustang to keep the speed for the right moment and at that moment, if you drop flaps, you will be able to sustain a long burst on a 109. But this is highly situational and you have to asses the energy difference between you and the target.:pilotfly:And you are correct. Flying with a wingman and fast is better than going into lone turnfights. Absolutely yes. Secondly, sometimes, you find yourself in a situation when you cannot run, when you are damaged and do not have enough ammo etc. And at that tough moment you have to use everything you have to survive. I hope this old clip can clarify a bit: [ame] [/ame] To be clear, we were both slow but he was a bit slower than me, after some maneuvering fight that we had right before that moment. But he was forcing an overshoot. I was unable to gain more speed and zoom above him, if I would get in front of him, I would be blown out of the sky. So my only option here was to enter scissors with him and deploy flaps to bleed speed and get in a position that I can force him to overshoot me, knowing that the Mustang has a bit better low speed handling than the 190. We both deployed flaps, but he didn't wanted to let go, neither did I. He stalled out and went into a spin at that altitude, which was deadly. I managed to make a flaps assisted pullout from the stall that occured and slowly regained control and found out, that I was able to go home free and alive. In conclusion. All I am trying to say is, learn your airplane its strenghts and weaknesses and do not be afraid to use the capability you have. Each situation is different and requires a different approach and flaps are not magic, so they will not pull you out of all situations. But they are a mighty useful tool that allows you to win if used correctly. I hope this time I explained it better:smilewink:

There are accounts by pilots of the P-51 such as Bud Anderson or Henry Stewart. "So the Messerschmitt is coming around again, climbing hard to his left, and I've had about enough of this. My angle is a little bit better this time. So I roll the dice. Instead of cobbing it like before and sailing on by him, I decide to turn hard left inside him, knowing that if I lose speed and don't make it I probably won't get home. I pull back on the throttle slightly, put down 10 degrees of flaps, and haul back on the stick just as hard as I can. And the nose begins coming up and around, slowly, slowly. . ." Source: http://www.acestory.elknet.pl/anderson/anderson.htm Stewart: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/361-morgan-25aug44.jpg �"Several times we got into a luftberry but each time by using 20 degrees of flaps I found I could out turn him.� " I will not copy the whole page here, go to the owner's page and go into the section: "Use of flaps in combat" Source: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html Just because many pilots didn't use flaps, doesn't mean that some didn't and remember that not everyone is an ace, and an ace knows his airplane good enough to use his airplane to its maximum potential. EDIT: I've also read and saw in a video that Japanese pilots used flaps a lot. So much that their designers put automatic maneuvering flaps for N1K. --------- About WEP. No one said it should be used "all the time", just during combat. Good for you if you feel comfy not using your max potential. Some people want to make their life harder I guess. But IRL: And Lt. Col. John C. Meyer of the 352nd FG himself: "I pulled 67 inches for 30 minutes and somewhere in that time lost them" http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-meyer-12may44.jpg He also speaks about the flaps usage by both him and the German pilot during that fight.

The law is the law.:smilewink: [ame] [/ame]

How do you plan on doing that? Do you have set of monitors from 15' to 40' and calibrate it? Cuse you know... each monitor will have it diferently. If you set it right for you, on your, lets say 24' monitor with high contrast to see easily a Bf109 at 5km, at 17'inch monitor that airplane can be invisible up to 1km. This is not as easy as people think. Graphics are subjective depending on hardware. What we should have is proper LOD scalling which would automtically adjust to the monitor to achieve the same result on all monitors. But we have impostors, which depending on the resolution change dramatically. If I set my 21' display at 1920x1080p, I can't see the enemy well. If I set it to 1680x1050 I see fine.

Cause we do not want to loose our sight during a few game sessions. Even with large it is sometimes hard to spot a target when its flying low over the ground because of a lacking contrast in the game. Small are too small. And annoying. I am happy that ACG keeps it on Large before something even better shows up. Also it depends on many factors, such as your monitor and resolution or as you said VR.

If you throttle back at the right time, the engine will not blow. I find guys that claim that they don't even use flaps and don't attempt WEP and use manual radiator control and still loose their engines, while I use full power, flaps and auto-radiators and do not blow my engine. Last time it happened was my fault purely in terms of my movment. I went into a steep dive at high speed and my hand twiched and I pushed my throttle up from near idle to WEP which of course resulted in death of the engine :P. But overall I do not blow my engine anymore. Just remember to lower the power when there is a spot in time to throttle back into green, even for few seconds and it will be fine.:pilotfly: Secondly, I am not advocating a fighting style here, I am just saying that survival depends on all aces you have up your sleeve. If you refuse to use your advantages during a dogfight, in favour of keeping your engine running in "safe" limitations, you will soon loose that engine due to a big 30mm round that will hit it. Again, it is in some situations, not all the time. I am not trying to write absolutes here, just tips.:smartass: