IIIJG52_Otto_

Currently, the aircombat WVR (within visual range) is very difficult in DCS because the closest contacts within a range of 2-3 km (1 or 2 miles) are not clearly visible. the flashes produced by the sun light in glasses and shiny parts of the aircraft are not visible now WVR aircombat. Does anyone know if EDGE will improvements in WVR air combat?

I'm talking about a very specific case. It is a DB605 engine in inverted flight, and running at normal power, or combat power. The formula for IHP or Hooker's Expression, is not contradict that I am saying. Not a few seconds!! ... Specifically 24 seconds at 2300 RPM! or more, if you run the engine a less RPM. I quote my previus post again

Exactly, that's what I try to explain. My calculation is not accurate, it is only a prorated based on data of time to stop the engine from the Danish report. It is only an example Danish report data are not exact, (according to the report) they are taken from engine noise in a video of a spectator. My calculation is a good approximation, because the mass of air and fuel consumption (in weight units, and applying the stoichiometric ratio) is more or less, proportional to engine RPM. As an example, this chart from fuel injection supercharged V8 engine Cadillac:

Obviously, I mean with the engine running normally not windmilling...and this condicion the assumption is plain true. and the air mass flow is proportional to RPM. And .. obviously a direct fuel injection engine spinning 6000 rpm in windmilling, with throttle closed, consume a bit or nothing fuel.

Yes.. but the air mass flow is proportional to RPM. Is there any piston-engine that consumes more fuel at idle, than at full power rpm? P-51D propeller governor need that propeller and engine, spinning at idle rpm at least, for working properly, Otherwise, oil pump does not produce enough oil pressure in the circuit. and blades pitch control is not possible. The Bf-109 electric aiirscrew pitch control does not have these limitations, works in any condition while the aircraft battery has sufficient energy.

Acording with the book of Jean-Claude MERMET "Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-1 to K-4 Engines & Fittings"-1999 in page 21 say: ""Incidentally, contrary to the accepted idea, the DB 605 was equipped with an electric starter permitting in-flight restart.""" Electric-inertia starter below RH

I started a thread on this topic, months ago http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135139 The electric starter-motor was small, only was used to spinning the inertia flywheel. The weight saving was not important. (see pictures in the thread linked) and.... the battery was not be removed, it is necessary for running electric pumps, radio and other avionics equipment.

well, e.g. , applying simple cross-multiplication, it would be something like; 2300rpm = 24seg (data from report) 1150rpm = 48seg 575rpm (idle) = 96seg = 1 min. 36 sec. 2800rpm = 20sec 3000rpm = 18seg in any case always more than the current 5 to 8 seconds The airscrew governor in the real P-51 was driven by hydraulic pressure from oil system of the engine. When the engine and propeller is spinning at low speed or stop, there is no oil pressure, and governor no work properly. The Bf-109 is equipped with, electric-motor driven airscrew governor, this device, can work with the propeller and engine spinnig at low speed or stopped, whenever the aircraft battery have some energy. the windmilling characteristic of Bf-109 must be some different from P-51. I agree with you Falke, .. I Don't have the real 109K4 flight manual, and I don´t know all differences with the Gustav.

I decided to open this thread to discuss properly about the capability of inverted flight of the Bf-109. At the moment in the DCS:Bf-109K4, when flying inverted for 5-8 seconds, fuel pressure go down quickly and the engine loses power, but no stop. In 2013 there was an accident at the Roskilde airshow due to excessive time of inverted-flying of Bf-109G "red 7" as the aeronautical authorities of Denmark reporting. This is de official report. http://www.havarikommissionen.dk/index.php?option=com_contentbuilder&title=search-aviation-hclj510-2013-242-bulletin&controller=details&id=4&record_id=41&Itemid=225&limitstart=0&filter_order=&lang=en&contentbuilder_download_file=c43f2f96ca5292e717bcfe1f71c67b2ddaef0539 According to this report, I find the following differences with DCS: Bf-109K4 1/ The fuel pressure drop should occur at 34 seconds of inverted flight, (not 4-8 seconds) 2/ During those 34 seconds, the engine runs normally at full power 2/ 34 seconds after the inverted flight was initiated, the engine must be start to misfire. 4/ Then, the engine must stop completely, (Not gripped pistons, only stopped) 5/ The electric pump P2, is not necessary for normal flight, and the engine must run normally without it at cruising speed. It is only for Take-off, landing, combat or aerobatic conditions. (edited: this is wrong acording to Falke says) 6/ The manual fuel priming, and the in flight electric start must be possible. Acording with the book of Jean-Claude MERMET "Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-1 to K-4 Engines & Fittings"-1999 in page 21 say: ""Incidentally, contrary to the accepted idea, the DB 605 was equipped with an electric starter permitting in-flight restart.""" P.D. The report from Denmark concerns a Bf-109G, but if Yo-Yo take the elevator trim data from a Bf-109G2/R6 taken by the VVS, ..these data are valid too.

I've corrected the image by another one with more precise data, from the book Haynes Publishing’s Messerschmitt Bf109 Owner’s Workshop Manual (f) = Fuel tank pump (In the top of de tank) (g) = Pump compensation control The capability of bf-109 for inverted flight, and negative G's, never before had refused, it is well documented by the British that the Bf-109´s had evaded from Spitfire with strong dives, and other maneuvers in negative G's during the battle of britain. the "experten" pilots Adolf Galland and Erich Hartmann used this Bf-109 capability of good flight in negative G's conditions in their combat maneuvers frequently.

if I am correctly informed, the electric fuel pump P2 is inside the tank, and this feeds the engine in G's negative and inverted flight. edited to add a more correct picture: The electric fuel pump was installed in the top cover of fuel tank in the GUSTAV versions, et seq.

That's not a bug. is a bad joke. Kurfürst, you has surprised me with that statement. I think the DCS:Bf-109K4 is still in swaddling clothes, and it is early to say that it is the best. or ..Do you call "FM" ,to the ability to click buttons, and levers with the mouse ?... That is not Flight Model. Kurfurst everything else is Ok for you? - The fuel pressure cut at 3 seconds inverted flight or negative G´s. - the elevator trim full nose-down flying at cruise speed. - wing drop in tightened turns with auto-slats deployed - No capability for pure spin, flat spin, and easy recovering as reality in less than 3 turns. All of that is right for you? Kurfurst, I have thought always that your role, was the "Guardian of Truth" about the Bf-109, ..but this comment, it now appears that you are satisfied with anything small. Do not be afraid to demand what you think is right, we are many fans of the Bf-109 to support you. I pay with real money and I want realistic FM, . I have seen flying a real Bf-109 in Berlin in 2012 ... and it no stop the engine inverted flight, and no wing drops in tuns. You can see the Bf-109 aerobatic show at minute 15:50

I quote myself, to remember what the pilots who are flying these airplanes are reporting... I don't want the Bf-109K4 become a UFO, I just want to behave like the real airplane IRL And now 109K4 in DCS is far from that behavior, it was stable with a tendency nose-heavy that pilots was reporting. Väinö Pokela, Finnish fighter ace (5 victories) and Me 109 trainer about Me-109G, he say: ""It flew like on rails even when shooting.""" With de CoG, displaced rearward the bf-109 have not the reported stability by the pilots. I remind you also, that we are now taking-off with the handwheel trim set to +1, (nose-down) and that is just the opposite of that pilots was done in reality. The strong tendency nose-down with landing flaps deployed, which force to adjust the trim handwheel full nose-up, is not modeled now in DCS. This makes me think that trim data in the VVS test, that Yo-Yo says are miscoded or inverted.

I agree with Pilum and Crumpp. The trim tabs are a final touch, so that the airplane fly, to pilot' taste..

If I am not misinformed, you are using data and curves of a Bf-109G2-R6 (with underwing gunpods) captures in 1943. That is NOT a Bf-109K4 in clean configuration. That configuration possibly need a special trimming in elevator trim tabs, due to gunpods are a extra weight that alters the CoG. If the VVS was removed the gunpods for test, the airplane need readjust the elevator trim tabs, for level flight,.. and this possibly they didn't. That is not true. if you set CERO in the elevator trim, and the elevator trim tabs are folded in the correct angle, the plane must be fly straight and levelled, by design. well, It seems that there are many anecdotes contrary to current DCS 109K4 FM with full nose-down trim for cruise. I think it possible that the Bf-109 needs a little elevator trim setting, at cruising speed, but in any case would be 1º nose-up, according to comments from pilots who have flown. All comments of pilots who flying the Bf-109 say that the attitude of the airplane is nose-heavy, not tail-heavy. Surely this problem is because the positive angles of the elevator trim are mistaken with nose attitude angles in data tests of the VVS, or in the FM, that angles are reversed and should be negative. Anyway I will try to find more data, about elevator trim of Bf-109 to report the bug properly.

I have read many books about Bf-109 and nowhere said anything about the need to trim the airplane full nose-down for cruising, with normal load in clean configuration. however I have read many comments about adjusting elevator trim to zero or 1º (nose-up) for takeoff, and zero for cruise and trimming near to full nose-up for landing. It is well known that with full flap and undercarriage deployed the Bf-109 has strong nose down tendency. Clearly you have something wrong in the DCS FM of Bf-109K4. Do you know that the handwheel trim indicator of the Bf-109 indicates positive values for tail-up contrary to American planes?, (for example)

Yo-Yo I would be very grateful to you, if you will can expand the information about adjusting elevator' trim tabs of the Bf-109K4. I tried to retouch some settings in the file: C:\..... \DCSWorld\Mods\aircraft\Bf-109K-4\FM\FMOptions.lua I tried to assign some positive and negative random values to the parameter "elevatortrimtab" but it does not work. The plane still flying with a strong nose-up attitude with the handwheel set in zero position (neutral trim). Somebody can help with this problem?

what says the VVS about elevator trim tabs setting on ground? ...What angle they set to tab? Do they performed the adjustment for straight and level flight that Dave Southwood the RAF test pilot say? Yo-Yo Tell me, what is the procedure for trimming an airplane with the stick ? ..the trim handwheel is used for flight without stick forces, if you are pulling or pushing the stick all time of flight .. what kind of trimming are you doing?.

Surely there is something wrong with the test data of Bf-109G2-R6 (with underwing gun pods cannons ) performed by the VVS in 1942, that YO-YO is commenting before. Probably the airplane had an incorrect trim tabs settings, due to the Russians was not known the correct setting. It is unquestionably that the trim setting of the DCS: Bf-109K4 is modeled incorrectly, because the airplane does not fly straight and level at cruising speed with Handwheel trim set in zero position as German Flight manuals says. (The trim setting remains wrong in version 1.2.15 published recently.) Besides the above, there are many books that talk about the good stability in flight of the bf-109. In the book "Messerschmitt Bf-109; Owners' Workshop Manual" of Haynes Publishing 2009. There is some commentaries about trim settings of Bf-109 in operations and Bf-109G2 "Black-6", the last original "Made in Germany" werk nummber: 10639, restored to airworthy condition. In that book, Dave Southwood the RAF test pitot, who flew the Bf-109G2 "Black-6", He says. In page 96: "" In the pre -take-off check, I set 20º flaps and 1º nose up tailplane trim. The original data said 0º trim, but 1º nose up was added after the propeller ground strike on the first sortie. "" In the page 97 of same book Dave Southwood says: ""trim settings: The ailerons and rudder fixed trim tabs were adjusted to give centralized slip ball and wings level flight with cruise power (1.0ATA, 2000rpm) set in straight and level flight. If adjustments were needed, the rudder trim had to be adjusted first before the required aileron trim tab adjustments could be made. Note that if the ailerons trim was correct at these cruise conditions, it was correct throughout almost the entire required flight envelope. "" This means the airplane is not tail heavy, and capable to straight and level flight with correct trim tabs set on ground, and with elevator trim handwheel set to zero.

The FM of DCS warbirds "is way ahead of anything" ??? are you sure?? Is possible to do aerobatic with a P-51 full fuel and external tanks?? If I remember correctly, .. these things could not do so in the IL2-1946

These things happen for start building the house from the roof instead of for he foundation. And I think that the foundations of a warbird in a simulator are its flight characteristics, much more important than clicking little buttons on a panel (useless in the middle of a fight), ..or flare pistol (very nice but not very useful), . I think I speak for everyone when I say that virtual pilots have a lot off patience, and we are supporting DCS, by buying expensive and incomplete airplanes. I think it is very important that you change your development priority, improving flight model & ballistic in first place as soon as possible, before the frills. For the fighter aircrafts, the spin tendency and Spin recovering capability, was a very important feature, in dogfight combat of WWII. It is documented in history books and flight tests, that putting the aircraft into a spin and recover it later, could be a useful evasive maneuver in certain combat situations, specially if the enemy chasing you, had worse characteristics to recover spins. An example was the battle between Bf-109 and Hurricane in BoB . The Hurricane had very poor ability to recover spins, it needed 6 full turns as minimum, while a Bf-109 could be recover spins in less than 3 turns, according the chronicles of some Spanish and Germans pilots.

Congratulations AVIODEV, good job !!. here you have a picture of the armed version, the C-101CC. I hope we can fly soon in DCS. Por cierto!! ¿tenemos el manual en español? Felicidades otra vez AVIODEV, estupendo trabajo.

Obviously, the FM of the bf-109K4 is much more advanced than the DM. As was discussed in another thread, the fuselage and wings Bf-109G and later, endured loads close to 12 G's: It is a joke that a Bf-109 miss the wing tips on 4 G's maneuvers (or 6 or 7 G's after the patch 1.2.14). It is a joke too that if you break the wingtip, the plane leaves burning. The Bf-109K4 had no outer fuel tanks in the wings. The only thing, susceptible of explosion, were spherical oxygen bottles located in the center of the left wing.

In that situation, several things will occur: - The drag increase rapidly with speed. - The plane would take an attitude of "heavy nose" and recover the dive will be more difficult .. - When the speed becomes high enough, the flaps and actuators will bend, the hydraulic pipes burst, or the flaps will be ripped from its hinges. - And the pilot will be fired, or he will goes to a martial court :)

I have corrected the post because I found information about this feature commenting by Siegfried. Bf-109 from prototype to E series, was equiped with "aileron drop", that feature works quite similar to Junker flaperons.