IIIJG52_Otto_

You're comparing a rag biplane of 500Kg. of empty weight, ..with a FAST modern construction aircraft, made in duraluminium semi-monocoque with over 2.300kg of empty weight. the sentence from Finnish fighter pilot Väinö Pokela, about the Bf-109, its very clear: "It flew like on rails even when shooting." Whom must i heed, a guy who shot down five enemy aircraft with a Bf-109, or you?:music_whistling: My joystick works perfectly on all simulators, ..The problem is not mine. The Bf-109 is now and was in wartime, perfectly trimmable, it is a historic fact. I try to show, with the most obvious possible evidence... I hope this work will serve for something.

I think you're completely wrong. The length and stiffness of the joystick have nothing to do when we fly the airplane at cruise speed, with horizontal stabilizer trim in neutral and hand-off. Reason for this?? ..The hands are OFF, :music_whistling: You can put the Eiffel tower as Joystick, but the result will be the same.. :D Probably in a few days we will have more reliable data on the elevator trim Bf-109G. and what is the reason that there is a 27.6% error in the elevator travel, between German data and the Russians used by Yo-Yo. The history come from here: :music_whistling: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2420458&postcount=255 http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2419648&postcount=243 http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2417178&postcount=216 http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2416830&postcount=207

I think that problems like this reported by virtual pilots, are due to the incorrect elevator trim modelling in the Bf-109K4. There is a thread with 27 pages at this moment, referred to this problems as Flagrum says. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

I'm sorry, ..joke edited &deleted. Please, let's go to re-center in resolve the elevator trim problem.

Then, please track my hands::smilewink: 2.2 degrees (Gr) x 27.3% = 0.6 degrees +2.2=2.8 degrees (Ru) Are you saying that you assume an error of 27% in the elevator control travel when the tolerance for this item of the BF-109K4 Manual was only 10%??:cry:..and when the tolerance to the ZERO set, in the horizontal stabilizer is ZERO (0%) in the Bf-109K4 manual?? :doh: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2416774&postcount=199 please, If I'm wrong, correct me

I fully agree.:thumbup:

Do you know anything about pitch down moment with flaps deployed.?? Nobody question why the Bf-109K4 have 6 degrees of THS trim travel for nose-up, without apparent utility?? No need to be Einstein for see that something is wrong. Please read again: In the book "Messerschmitt Bf-109; Owners' Workshop Manual" of Haynes Publishing 2009. There is some commentaries about trim settings of Bf-109 in operations and Bf-109G2 "Black-6", the last original "Made in Germany" werk nummber: 10639, restored to airworthy condition. In that book, Dave Southwood the RAF test pitot, who flew the Bf-109G2 "Black-6", He says. In page 96: "" In the pre -take-off check, I set 20º flaps and 1º nose up tailplane trim. The original data said 0º trim, but 1º nose up was added after the propeller ground strike on the first sortie. "" In the page 97 of same book Dave Southwood says: ""trim settings: The ailerons and rudder fixed trim tabs were adjusted to give centralized slip ball and wings level flight with cruise power (1.0ATA, 2000rpm) set in straight and level flight. If adjustments were needed, the rudder trim had to be adjusted first before the required aileron trim tab adjustments could be made. Note that if the ailerons trim was correct at these cruise conditions, it was correct throughout almost the entire required flight envelope. ""

This that Messermeister says is what Supongo and I are trying to explain you, last night in TS when we show you this German tests chart. The Russian test as Yo-Yo says is in climb attitude, NOT at leveled flight, and the CoG is displaced more rearward than the German test curves.

It`s a joke? :music_whistling: Do not forget that the flight controls were adjusted after repairs. You know, battle damage, breakdowns, etc.etc. :joystick:

Thank you for your support, my friend :thumbup:

In the better of all cases .. that curves chart, are not from a Bf-109K4 ..because.. In acordirng with the book of Thomas H. Hitchcock - "Bf 109 K Monogram Close-Up 16 -Monogram Aviation Publications- 1979 and with the book "Messerschmitt Bf-109 F to K Development, Testing and Production by W.Radinger & W.Otto -Schiffer Publishing Ltd.-1999- The "Economical cruising speed" for BF-109K4 was 645 km/h(TAS) at an altitude of 8.4 km. and 477km/h(TAS) at Sea level. open the spoiler for see a screenshoot of the data chart. I.A.W. kurfurst.org This cruise speed was obtained at engine regime of 2000 RPM@ 1.15ATA Open the spoiler for see the DB-605DB performances chart. I.A.W. Messerschmitt Bf-109 K-4 Werkschrift 2109 K-4 Teil 1,2,3,4, Flugzeug-Handbuch, 1944, After reparations in the flight controls, was mandatory the control of the dimensions and angles of the tailplane. It was performed placing the fuselage at level flight position using some spirit levels and plumb bobs and the THS (Trimmable Horizontal Stabilizer) airfoil was setting to zero degrees, with zero tolerance. (see the chart below) the angles of travel in the control surfaces were also checked in the different THS and elevator stops positions. (Note that the angles of travel in the elevator control surface are different, when the THS angle of incidence is different than zero) Open de spoiler and see the figure and control chart:

SiThSpAwN Are you sure of that chart is showing the angles of the elevator incidence or angles of fixed trim tabs?? That you are marking in the image as "elevator angle" and the angle which is displayed on the label "trim" are incongruous. The elevator and aileron trim tabs were adjusted on ground as you see in this picture

like I said previously, the ZERO TRIM mark means neutral. in the P-51D trim handwheel, gets on capital letters the word "NEUTRAL". The mark "take off" in your Cessna, no meaning necessarily NEUTRAL, because some airplanes as P-51D must be take-off in different angle of pitch. In some airplanes the take-off elevator trim configuratión matching with elevator trim configuration at cruise speed, i.e. cero degrees. open the spoiler and see evidences. Completely false, if you read the original manual of the P-51D, you need to adjust the elevator trim 2 or 4 degrees nose-down for takeoff, depending on fuel load in the fuselage tanks. Please, read the manual here: http://issuu.com/tiamat2013/docs/p-51_poh/51?e=9282774/7894667

The Bf-109 is different, it is a more simple and advanced design, it is equipped with THS (Trimmable Horizontal Stabilizer) as modern Airbus. The trim tabs are fixed and adjusted on the ground to level the aircraft in cruise flight. But, like the P-51D, ..the zero mark in the trim control is for leveled flight. open the spoiler for details

1/Please, No offense you for my comments. 2/ I have not flown a Bf-109k4 real, ..but I can read, and I have read many books about this aeroplane, and comments from many pilots who have flown a Bf-109, .. and they do not talk anything about the nose-up attitude, with the elevator trim set in zero. 3/ Unknown to the sources used by E.D.to model the Bf-109K4, but obviously something is wrong ..no need to be Einstein to realize it.

SiThSpAwN, please be honest, the whole community takes months reporting that the elevator trim control and trim tabs are poorly modeled on the Bf-109K4. There is a thread with 13 pages on this topic. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453 We have provided evidence, and comments from pilots who fly this plane, and now it looks like you .. Are you saying that the elevator trim of the K4 is okay ?. why? All pilots know that the zero mark in the elevator trim control is neutral attitude, ..and that applies to all aircraft which have this mark, including the Bf-109. When the bf-109K4 is born in flight in DCS, the airplane start with correctly setting the elevator trim to zero for leveled flight, ..but the flight model is wrong, and the airplane starts in the air in extremely bad pitch-up attitude. That is totally unrealistic.

+1 ...please,.. can somebody fix something? .. even if it is a little? :music_whistling:

Yo-Yo takes in mind the windmilling effect? If you cut throttle to idle, that does not mean that the engine lowers the speed to idle speed immediately. If a Bf-109 IRL is flying at high speed, and cut the throttle, windmilling effect keep the inertia of the propeller, and the pitch angle in VDM airscrew will not be reduced suddenly, otherwise in proportion to the turning speed. Electric pitch control was almost perfect, only a little bit slower than the Hydraulic hydromatic pitch control system. you must not forget that the Americans also used the Curtis electric propeller pitch control in his P-39, P-47, P-51A, P-38, F4F, etc,etc. You can purchase all VDM electric propeller manuals in this page if you needed. http://www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de/vdm.htm

I think the elevator trim bf-109 k4, remains bad modeled. In this screenshot from 360º view of bf-109G4 of the Flugmuseum Messerschmitt, you can see that the normal elevator trim configutatión is -1 or negative (tail-down) not full nose down as DCS. http://www.flugmuseum-messerschmitt.de/Me109G4/360Cockpit/

As my homonym Otto says, the rearview mirror was only used in early versions of the Bf-109. these mirrors were a field modifications (required by pilots), the mirrors are not a factory equipment, and they suffered heavy vibrations and were of little use to see enemy planes approaching from the back at a distance. The Rotte flight tactics, were more effective in mutual protection than any rearview mirror. Personally, I think that this rearview mirror installation is not very aerodynamic and a little shoddily. ...No wonder it suffering vibrations :D

Obviously the DM is very poor actually in DCS for all airplanes, especially for AI airplanes, :music_whistling:... but don´t worry gents, it is perfectly realistic for my dear friend Manowar, it's only a problem of the inexperienced pilots or crappy hardware. :D I hope and trust that E.D., will be able to improve the DM on the DCS:World 2.0 .. if they didn't, it would be a waste of all good job that they have achieved so far.:thumbup:

Sithspawn ..How many MOD have you installed? ..CleanGlasses ..and what other more? ..or it is a special open BETA?. At that distance it is impossible for me to hit with the MK108 to a P-51 in a frontal attack. .. I only get effective cannon shots in less than 100m of distance.

I have already explained in another post http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2373035&postcount=75

re-quote myself :music_whistling: