Top Jockey

Well, not quite. For instance, I've been flying the Mirage the first time a couple days ago, and in a dogfight the amount of lead one has to pull is noticeably more than in the Hornet; when trying to get a guns solution while in a lead pursuit of the target. (Against the same enemy aircraft in roughly the same engagement conditions.) This higher amount of lead one has to pull, frequently causes that the gun piper / reticle disappears at the bottom of the HUD, making it very likely to miss the target. Whereas in the Hornet it doesn't happen so easily. I know, you can say: "its the different bullet velocity and trajectory from Mirage and Hornet different guns", yes it also does play a part in this, but even so a slightly upward canted angle in the Mirage's guns would help in my opinion.

Not that I'm aware of. At the directory below (or something similar), the closest thing available is the Su-27 manual. C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\Flaming Cliffs\Doc

Hello, Don't know if you already bought it or not, but i can share my experience with the T.16000. The stick itself does its job, does have a general quality, but lets not kid ourselves - it is an entry level product from Thrustmaster. Which is although it does have good precision (thanks to HALL sensor), mine however already developed some center play / woble in the Y axis (pitch)... which in less than a year doesn't leave a good impression.

And you're right. Actually in one of the engagements consisting mainly in 2 circle fights, the AI pilot ejected without ever being hit, after quite a while without any events. So I guess he must have been out of fuel as I was almost over also. (Moved the post for the main thread.)

Already mentioned that this aircraft doesn't cease to amaze me, and it keeps going. As it came out for the DCS World AI (as I didn't buy it yet), one would eventualy going to try to fly several different types against it. In my case against the AI's JF-17... and what a surprise I got. Since one of my favorite themes regarding jet fighters, is to determine which ones of them "turn best" go figure, I've flown against the JF-17 in: Mirage 2000C, F/A-18C, MiG-29A, F-14B and F-15C. Take one: the conditions were essentialy (for both the AI's JF-17 and my aircraft): - 2 x A-A missiles; - 60 % internal fuel. The results were: Mirage 2000C Very hard to keep maintaining 6 o'clock position on the JF-17, as this one's sustained turn rate is very good and although the Mirage does have a very good nose pointing ability, it rapidly kept loosing energy, frequently leaving me as a sitting duck. Oportunity Fox 2 shots were possible. A stable gun solution on the JF-17 was almost impossible. F/A-18C Less harder to keep maintaining 6 o'clock position on the JF-17, but even so it could eventualy run away thanks to the high sustained turn rate. One circle fights helped the Hornet, until the JF-17 start getting speed and get out of the my kill zone. Fox 2 shots also were possible. A stable gun solution was a little bit easier than in the Mirage. MiG-29 ... what a disappointment. For various reasons (amongst them its legendary maneuverability) I highly appreciate this aircraft, however it seemed to me it was the one which performed worst against the JF-17. To get on the JF-17's six is now a pain in the a**, and wasn't always possible. When trying to folow the JF-17: - the MiG seemed to loose energy almost as quick as the Mirage 2000; - however its good instantaneous turn rate is somewhat hampered by the flight control system, even with the paddle switch pressed to allow extra AoA; - sustained turn rate... also wasn't enough from the start, to keep going with the JF-17. - rolling when pulling Gs, forget about it - this also presented a great handicap. - gun solution, forget about it. R-73 Archer shots were possible, but that wasn't the point of my experience. F-14B Clearly more positive than the MiG-29 (which doesn't make much sense to me), and showed a better ability to get on the JF-17's six, essentialy thanks to a very good turn rate and good nose pointing ability. When the JF-17 forced 1 circle fights however, the Tomcat started to show its "particularities"... as in low speed and AoA above 15 units, it beggins to buffet and eventualy will stall. But was already a good experience. F-15C How come this was of the whole 5 aircraft, the best to fight BFM against the JF-17 ?? Rest assured it was, probably because the very good instantaneous and sustained turn rates. Certainly it can loose energy quick if you pull exagerated turns, but it also recovers very quickly - and that is why this one can get at the JF-17's six with perceptible ease. Take two: however I started to think if I wasn't being somewhat naive. So now all of the 5 aircraft received the same fuel weight than the JF-17 (3500 lbs of it), instead of the same %. ... obviously this made a BIG difference, as I can now stay almost indefinetly at the JF-17's six with almost every aircraft - the Hornet particularly is perceivedly better. The MiG also got better obviously, but eitherway the worst of the 5 in BFM performance wise. Concluding: The F-15 was positively a very big surprise. The MiG-29 remains for reasons that I don't quite understand, the least "practical" to BFM, when it should be one of the very best... disappointing. The JF-17 BFM capabilities left an overall very good impression, so I look forward to try it for myself in a near future. :thumbup:

edit - moved for main thread

Very good! thank you for the video. Both the F-15 and the JF-17 force 1 circle fights, and then... brrrrrt. I can tell, yesterday even with the MiG-29 (its roll authority handicap at high alpha is disapointing) and the Hornet i've had difficulties to shot down the JF-17 in dogfight. (Then again, it was against Excelent skill AI.)

Not everyone. Speaking for myself, actually I've been finding what I read about this aircraft very interesting. Regarding SD10 missile implementation, I also agree that it should be kept as close as IRL as possible. About maneuverability / BFM capabilities, could you share some light on my doubts at post #4 ? Thank you.

Interesting to know that. I've been reading here about the JF-17 (and several others I don't have yet), and I've also seen the thread about the SD10 you mention. My 2 cents on the SD10 implementation in DCS: - by me every weapon should be as close as IRL; - if by chance other aircraft's weapons aren't up to par with IRL today, then they should be revised; - and not nerf down the SD10 which many people says it's currently behaving as IRL, neither for the purposes of balancing or whatever. Regarding the JF-17 BFM maneuverability aspects I've mentioned, do you feel it's that easy to win against Mirage, F/A-18, F-16, etc, or did I catch a standard "high powered AI flight model behavior" yesterday ? Thank you.

Ok I completely understand.

Just mere curiousity, which aspects don't you like / or don't appeal to you in this bird ? I may very well acquire it in the future, as although I don't know much about it yet I've been finding it interesting. However bought the Mirage 2000C yesterday, updated DCS World to last open beta and... obviously went to fly the Mirage against the JF-17 as AI, both of them with 2 x A-A missiles and 60 % internal fuel. ... and I got surprised by the JF-17 BFM capabilities. Don't know if because of the current AI flight model, or because the JF-17 is a small and lightweight fighter, but it showed VERY good sustained turn rate and very nimble turns. In terms of BFM performance (high sustained turn rate and small turn radius), I must say it recalls me the JAS-39 Gripen AI jet from a past sim (Super EF2000). Aesteticaly wise, I do find the aircraft prety, only the engine air intakes don't feel much right in the overall design - but this is merely in the "looks" department.

There, fixed that for you. And you know it's true, mainly to sell in the export market. No fight whatsoever only polite conversation, remember rule 1.2.

And I've flown that one already, it's the Su-33 in Flaming Cliffs 3.

New Mirage 2000 pilot here. There's no more hesitation - today was the day. ... the current Thanksgiving discount price is a bargain. 1- thank you guys, for your advice ; 2 - thank you RAZBAM for an outstanding jet fighter ; 3 - my "obsession" with agility is for now satisfied... this thing DOES have Instantaneous Turn Rate ! MiG-29 and F/A-18 can now take a rest.

Yeah I don't doubt it could be an interesting machine, although I don't need another MiG-21 copy. Like I mentioned the other day I would much prefer the Lavi's derivative.

Thank you guys for the detailed insight. Because someone wrote backthere that it could have pulled more G's than the F-16 (or something like that), my curiosity arose. edit: found it - post #18 of this thread.

Interesting report. To be honest, I've been looking for a new acquisition for my hangar for a while, either the Mirage 2000C, the F-16 or the JF-17. So I didn't quite understood, why you say you won't take the JF-17 for dogfights anytime soon. I've read its nimble when in lightweight, and its turn rates good ... Does it lose energy fast ? BFM wise how does it compare with the other 4 jets you mention ?

Argentina: are you listening ?

That's because it was, along with the HOTAS throttle lever, etc.

Thank you falcon_120, just the kind of detail I wanted to know. I wouldn't tell it, as in terms of aerodynamics / airframe design, its shape isn't so clean and sleek like the F-16's one. (But then neither is the MiG-29 one's, and it is that machine.) I'm beginning to look at this jet with other eyes...

Has anyone already tried BFM against other types yet MiG, Mirage, F-16 ?

What are your impressions regarding instantaneous / sustained turn rate, comparing with F-16, MiG-29, etc ?

Relevant points indeed, but everytime I look at a jet fighter I tend to be carried away by my "purist" vein... And in that regard, I believe the J-10 would be a superior BFM machine than the JF-17. (Of course all this is mere speculation, as I've never compared any kind of performance data between the two.) By the way, also recal an article where chinese pilots reported the J-10 did very good in BFM against their Su-27.

Is the J-10 in the to do list ? Althouhg the JF-17 doesn't catch my interest that much, the J-10 on the other hand is probably a sure buy for me if DEKA goes forward with it. I like its looks, its canards, etc. Its design just screams: high maneuverability. ... although let's not kid ourselves - I've read somewhere this is actually the Israeli "Lavi" project, bought by China. :D

Naturally those are all 1st, 2nd ( and 3rd ? ) generation jet fighters, so they can't be more modern or technicaly capable than that. But I understand your point; for me it's the WW2 birds which don't catch my interest a lot. (I find Spitfires and BF-109s very pretty... but it's just that.)