Thadiun Okona

I see this guy's stuff on ebay all the time and wonder how accurate they are. If they are accurate, it may be worth picking one up to take molds from and turn into a usable grip or even using for high res scanning to model from. As is, they are static solid one-piece resin castings ('buttons' and all) that would pose many challenges to work from, but again might be worth it if they are actually accurate dimensionally.

I forgot I was also going to post a PSA about the black acrylate from Shapeways. I ordered several parts in this material and was very disappointed with the results. Problems: -rubbery/gummy/sticky feeling, much softer than nylon -surface condition -unacceptable- One side of the parts look cooked, melted with bubbles in the surface. The other side of the parts have a prominent hatching pattern of parallel lines on them. Or have a texture like the grain of wood Here's an album with more pics of my parts, it was not a fluke of just one, they were all this way. My advice is to steer clear of this material, it is not worth the premium price tag that is put on it. http://imgur.com/a/VGY16

It also has to be a straight-mount solder-pin type or else it will not have legs that line up with the holes. The same dimension switches also come in smd, gullwing, or side-mount so one has to be careful when ordering. Starting with solder leg style, 2 legs are cut off and the other 2 bent 90deg to exit the housing. Also Thrustmaster uses 260 gram force switches and these come in a great many force values even in the same form factor. TM's switches are already pretty hard to tell when you've actually pressed the button or not and using lower force switches than 260gf (2.6N) would make that even worse. My personal preference are the 500 gram force ($0.75 ea made by Omron) which feel much better than TM's arrangement, closer to real aircraft switches.

I've been working on my own Suncom mod and was going to have debolestis alter the dimensions of the stem to accommodate the style locking collar and finished height I wanted, but decided just to machine the stem out of aluminum as it's a simple enough part. I made a locking collar for my Warthog to replicate the actual lock nuts used in military aircraft and wanted to do the same with this mod. I neglected to account for the 2 grooves that go halfway around the stem which reduce its OD a few mm for the webs they made with inside the removable part of the grip, gotta cut them next week... I'm going to scavenge one of my Cougar grip boards and stock it with proper 4-ways and also make a 3-way for the thumb though I might break down and put a 5-way there since it already has limited buttons. Trigger will be switched to a replica Otto U2-016 so will be dual stage, and I might end up making a new stem a little longer to accommodate adding a pinky paddle switch since there will already be unused button slots on the board. Projects projects...

This got me thinking it would be useful/beneficial to make adapters for a ministick as well as single axis pot to make them fit the TM 4-way hole size like the ones you made for the Alps 9-way. That way they could be easily slipped into the same holes either on the stick or just easy mounting elsewhere. There are some nice pots that are small enough to press into a flanged adapter sleeve, and the male/female miniDIN at the base of the grip could be changed to one with more pins for the passthrough. I'll try to find a suitable pot and ministick for this...

Just noticed Shapeways is running a free shipping thing through Nov 20... good time to buy some of debolestis parts!

:) I'm that guy (cavortingwebeasties on the reddits, Loc Nar on SimHQ and some other sites...) The Warthog grip is ~100cc of material across 7 parts. Yes, frosted clear plastic or the back acrylate will cost upwards of $600, possibly more. edit: Sintered nylon comes out to ~$140 This is why I printed in nylon and manually cleaned up the parts using surfacing primer (PCL Polyprimer) before taking molds, which is what I'm doing right now. Here's some pics of the stock Warthog part next to the left hand trigger cast in the resin/pigment from my first production mold: The resin is extremely tough, at least as strong as the sintered nylon and I'm very happy with it, as well as the pigments. When I switch to the aluminum version I'll be making, I'm switching my resin versions to match that style as well, which like the real grips from Essex are cast as a single hollowform part with a separate top cap and pinky paddle. At that point I will be making both right and left grips, and debolestis and I have been working on the side refining the 4-ways (I have a bunch of Omron microswitches to test in them) and coming up with new single buttons, but I don't want to derail debolestis' thread with this. ps. if anyone has an Otto U2-016 they are willing to sell/trade I need one so I can rev engineer it, since the single-piece grips need this type of self-contained trigger plus they are really cool... pps: debolestis, I'll get you the M-36x2 threaded shank model in the next few days :)

There's a 3d file you can print instead of paying TM's overpriced shipping for this small part that comes out to 27Eur even if they *did have one. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.il2sturmovik.ru%2Ftopic%2F2420-hotas-warthog-zamena-vnutrennego-sharnira%2F http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2420-hotas-warthog-zamena-vnutrennego-sharnira/ original link in Russian You will need to register to download the part file...

I say get the real seat... for the amount of time you spend building by the time all is said and done... what's 100bux to have an authentic part to replicate exact feel and look... though collecting real parts can be habit forming.

M4-0.7 x 8mm flathead, stock ones are phillips

affordable, small, or powerful... You can only pick 2 :)

True steppers are a nonstarter, but gears are pretty bad for this as well, you can really feel the teeth meshing and ratcheting and backlash is the enemy. Toothed belts are sometimes used for this, at least power transmission on actuators on high end motion platforms, though they are special 'Citroen' drive type, where the teeth are arranged in a 'v' pattern. Best in a case like this is to use 'shaft winding'. It works like pulleys but with tensioned steel cable, where the drive end has a cross-hole drilled in the shaft and 2-3 wraps winding around it before going to the reduction pulley/bellcrank, which is is also fixed to. This is one of the only ways to provide smooth power transmission on a limited space budget. High level sims use this technique if pinched for space, or more commonly they use direct drive 3ph ac servomechanisms hooked to pushrods like real controls etc. I work for a company that makes top level motion platforms and control loading hardware. I come from a background in DIY tough, so long before that I used to pick Roland Van Roy's brain a lot and collaborated with him on a loading scheme he tested functional. Here's an electromechanical circuit I designed for control loading called a 'dual driven pot' that is a known functional route, so I guess this is my contribution to this project for now. http://www.simprojects.nl/images/FF%20idea.JPG The way it works: 1. airspeed data is extracted from sim and assigned digital value (0-255), which defines the current max potential force 2. DAC converts it to variable voltage, say 0-10vdc (arbitrary, based on drive needs) 3. generate inverse of signal 4. feed signal and its inverse into the end contacts on a pot 5. the wiper generates your left/right variable drive signal based on a) max potential from line 1 b) displacement of stick from center When centered, forces will be zero regardless of airspeed but if deflected to max, it will go up to the max value defined by current airspeed, or any value in between you stop at. This provides variable centering forces based on airspeed, which is the baseline of all control loading. From there it would be pretty easy to add offset effects like trim, but going beyond that is when things get dicey. For any of the rest of the effects, you would have to have a pre-scripted library of jolts/bumps/shakes/etc, to be triggered at appropriate moments, which req you to have pretty deep access to a sim, and req that same access to ANY sim you want to use it in. Extracting airspeed is one thing, but the rest is a whole nother beast. I've stayed out of this thread because it's such a can of worms, and in all honesty the hardware is the easy part once you reconcile the implications of the line above. This is a tough wheel to reinvent, so in all honesty the best DIY FF you are going to come up with is tapping the drive signals on MS FFII and redirecting them to bigger motors/hardware. Even Roland Van Roy settled on this method, despite having fully functional DIY FF stuff long MS stopped making that stick as well as a great library of effects and a sim that makes it easy to extract parameters from (FSX). Anyone seriously considering taking this on would be well served by bookmarking and studying Roland's site thoroughly, he is very knowledgeable on this subject and has a lot of years of practical experience reinventing this wheel. http://www.simprojects.nl/index.htm edit: Drakoz: don't rule out shaft winding, your assessment is in error about it wearing out and such unless you under engineer it. For instance, 1/8" aircraft cable is rated at 1000lbs... the toy-like forces of a DIY control loading mechanism will never approach this and tensioning is the only tricky part, but the more room you have the easier it is because turnbuckles can be used. Another option besides cable is Spectra/Kevlar type rigging rope... it's significantly stronger than steel cable and has 1/25 the amount of stretch/creep and is much easier on the fingers to work with..

When pass through stereoscopic cameras are the norm in VR and they can operate in AR mode they will be quite compelling with physical cockpits not to mention upcoming AR devices. All the buttons/switches/tactile inputs would still be there and in full use, but now your 'canopy' and 'instrument faces' and 'mfd' displays etc can just be green screen. It will be glorious, and physical cockpits are here to stay and I dare say will become even more popular as super immersive builds will req much less work than we have to do now, especially once gesture mapping is dialed in enough that you don't even need to wire any switches/pots, just provide the kinematics... That's where I see it heading anyhow.

Interesting, reminds me of Tank/APC controls and the Atari yoke, got any more/better pics? Pitch is obvious, is the second axis yaw? Spent a good while looking at those things when I was coming up with my kinematic test model for the 6dof spaceyoke I'm working on. ${1} When my left hand Warthogs are ready it will be made with modded r/l warty grips.

Monstertech, hands down. That thing is really stiff, so 100% of your motion is crisply translated into inputs and makes it easier to be very precise. Those wheelstands wobble/flex as much as they look like they would, which is enough to be annoying imo. On the Monstertech mount you can slide the stick to the center position if you want to fly center stick. They'll also make you a custom plate as well if you wind up with an extension that increases the arc etc, Olsen runs a tight ship and there products are developed with a lot of community interaction and feedback so wind up pretty refined. Real cockpits are rock solid like this and imo that provides a great deal of immersion in itself. I have a real pet peeve for even the slightest wobble of a stand a peripheral is mounted to, so to me there is no comparison here.

Warthog is very sturdy, sounds like that guy had a lemon. The sticktion is real, however with an extension you will not notice it for a long time, however eventually you want to open it up, clean out the old grease and cat hair and re-grease it with good grease, preferably something with serious damping properties like Nyogel 767a. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=80787 Preventing dust from getting inside the gimbals will go a long way towards staving off the onset of sticktion though. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=172588 When using an extension, you need to be very careful when tightening the shaft to the gimbals. If you put too much torque on it, there is a part called the 'articulation sphere' that will snap, and TM are weenies about replacing it however you can also just print a new one, because this has come up. http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4126577/all/My_Broken_TM_Warthog_Stick_Gim Besides the articulation sphere, it's really hard to break one, though guys with force sensing setups sometimes snap the tailpiece, but that is under far greater loads than it ever sees on the stock gimbals.

Yes

The wiggle happens when the screw inside the grip holding the tailstock comes loose. If yours does, tighten it back up right away and maybe use Loctite on the threads. So long as it stays tight it won't wallow the metal, but if you leave it loose it may lose the ability to tighten back up. If you ever break it (zinc is very weak), Deboloestis has a Shapeways page where you can print a black steel replacement and even add the 13deg fed pitch angle Thrustmaster omitted from their already nose-heavy grip likely for balance purposes. http://www.shapeways.com/shops/debolestis This will not put 'extra stress' on the grip or whatever you are worried about; it's just a superior replacement part for the cheap pot-metal one TM makes. They use zinc to save money, not to act as a mechanical fuse.

I came up with a simple solution to keep dust out of the gimbals, a plastic disc with a slit in it, with a big enough ID to let the stick move through its range of motion without hindering it, installs/uninstalls in seconds, and leaves the stick free to remove the grip without taking it off. I sell them machine cut in black mylar, however my first ones cut with scissors worked alright. I just made a thread about them here, and have a site set up now as well. http://www.dualsticks.com/dustshields/

$350 seems perfectly reasonable, that's a high part count and a lot of welds. Ungainly looking, but that thing probably feels more like a real stick than most others do. Also note pitch is longer by 50mm or so, further adding to the realistic feel of the kinematics. I've seen pics of this thing around for a long time, I thinks it's great they are actually selling them and wish them the best of luck. As usual, Sokol1 has his ear to the ground in all the right places... thanks for the link, bookmarked and exploring :) edit: google translated link: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hotas.su%2F

A while back I came up with a simple mod to significantly reduce the amount of dust/grime that finds its way into Warthog base enclosures. While there are a number of underlying causes that lead to sticktion, a big one is the ingestion of dust and cookie crumbs which accelerates fouling of the grease. Regardless of what grease you swear by (Nyogel 767a!!), preventing dust and Cheeto crumbs from mixing with it over time is key to stretching out the cycle. The discs I make a machine cut out of black .012" Mylar plastic and are near invisible once installed which only takes seconds. The OD is the same as the black raised open area it's covering, and the ID is just big enough to allow it to travel though its normal +/-20deg range of motion unobstructed and remains flat, but not big enough to allow debris to get in. Been selling these direct and wholesale for a while and people seem quite pleased with theirs, but finally set up a site for them with a direct paypal link so felt like I could present them places like this forum. http://www.dualsticks.com/dustshields/ (wholesale inquiries welcome) Opening at top of gimbals allow debris/dust to enter If anyone wants to try to make their own, OD is 2.15" and ID is .900"

T16k and Suncom do not suffer the axis bleeding Warthog does, both being pretty decent gimbals from a kinematic standpoint despite having a single spring. In Warthog's case it's not only the single spring, it presses against a piston which limits it's contact force point to a single location on the circumference, which robs the spring tension from everywhere else unlike the 2 above examples. Makes the stick happy to draw circles, but unable to draw a straight line to save its own life, especially if it crosses the detente. I prefer discretely sprung axes (cams are my favorite) as well and gimbals I'm designing/making utilize them, but proper implementation of a single spring such as Suncom actually works pretty well and does not deserve a bad rap because of Warthog's questionable engineering.

Here's mine, made from a Cougar stem, a Gardena hose fitting, a copper fitting, and some scrap aluminum. I used breadboard jumpers to bridge the Cougar plug to the Warthog mini-DIN. Between the rear offset and fed pitch, the stick is pretty well mass balanced now. Length -15cm Rear offset -50mm Fwd pitch angle - 7deg

Be aware they used the same color wires for different outputs in the throttle unit if you decide to put a Hall in it (gnd and vcc are swapped) Throttle pot wiring: Orange is VCC Red is Vout Brown is Gnd Unlike hooking up a pot backwards where it just reverses its output, switching gnd and vcc will fry a Hall.

Not worth using the Logitech board for this, it does a poor job with the signals and the output in terms of resolution and response. The amount of work you need to do before you have anything worthwhile is the same regardless of what stick you hack, but MSFFII appears to be the only one that does justice with what games natively provide. Before Roland van Roy figured out how to hack MSFFII he used a Logitech brain and it was very unsatisfactory (laggy, signals didn't make sense vs scenarios, extremely poor output resolution). He replaced it with a full homegrown solution which he used for a long time and was pretty happy with, but that was superseded by his MSFFII hack. It was done for performance and convenience reasons. His homegrown solution worked ok, but is limited in that it req its own parameter extractor program to be made for literally every application you use it for and then only as detailed as the library of effects which you can custom trigger, which is the appeal of using something that already does the hard part for you -interface with game and generate decent output commands.