Shepski

The ET already has initial flyout guidance when launched(overide) with a sensor lock. Seeker limits I know nothing about. :) I just flew the F-15C in the 169th server last night for the first time in quite awhile and had no problem getting kills with the AIM-120. One reason I believe we see so many ET kills online, other then the sneaky stealth ones) is because the target is always notching out the ER shots and as the engagement unfolds and the range reduces the ET becomes a useful missile. But, now I'm starting to see this maddoging mania going on more and more online... but if you know it's coming you can beat it.

Thanks for that Breakshot!! I'd love to see an actual translation of it.

Righto and in my book, Mig-29 Flight Manual Declassified it doesn't even mention the R-27T or R-73 as available weapons. It also states that for IR missiles to be launched the "NP" command must be given... I'm guessing this pertains to the R-60 so who knows with regards to the Su-27 and T/TE missiles.

I figured it out... the reason we are seeing the early tracking by the TE in Pilotasso's trk is because it is going for the jet with afterburner on. In my test mission I had the Eagle at high speed, in afterburner and the TE started tracking at about 13-14km.

Ah... I believe your numbers and in the track the first missile heads downhill towards the first pair of Eagles then abrubtly levels off and then shortly thereafter starts maneuvering for the trailing higher Eagle. I can't duplicate the missile maneuvering any farther then 7 km against an F-15. I wonder what his missile slider was set at... Pilotasso?? I always am set at default BTW.

Would this also apply to the Su-27 too?

I used my own test vs a Mig-29A head on at 6000m. In his trk there are no labels or even enemy units on the F10 view to get distance information. How did you get the distance?

Hmmmm... interesting. :)

Hehe... see GG's post... it sounds plausible to me :) Isn't this fun!

There is only one maddog issue and that's if the missile can be fired prior to seeker lock. Other then that a maddog launch has very low probability of hitting anything at long range unless the player lines the jet up perfectly and the target doesn't maneuver. Initail flyout guidance with a sensor lock is what you are refering to and it's fire and forget.

In Lock On we don't see datalink but we do see flyout guidance with a sensor lock. Be interesting to see what members of Eagle have to say about this discussion. :)

I was meaning by lock did you mean a seeker lock. :) I didn't mean the TE has midcourse guidance but initial flyout guidance to get it pointed at the right piece of sky according to the target flight path at the moment of launch. In a maddog launch there is no flyout guidance so the player has to aim the jet at the right piece of sky himself.

Rich, He's using a jamming target and I wonder if that makes a difference... will investigate... no difference in my test... TE flys straight then starts to maneuver at about 7km from target. I wish guys who submit tracks for testing purposes, especially missile performance, would turn labels on.

Of course but wouldn't that system be used for target information as well? It would be just a matter of sending the range/bearing/altitude information from the aircraft sensor to the INS system prior to firing.

Hi Rich, I tested this by when the missile started to maneuver after flying in a straight line and it coincides with the range at which you get the "NP" cue under normal circumstances. I'll look at the track.

Gallad posted this: "A russian specialist said : (r-27) In the case of the IR homing versions the target is initially acquired by the fighter radar, wherupon target information is download to the missile's seeker head;" In my book, "Su-27: Flanker Story" by Andrei Fomin it states that "the missile control system includes the inertial navigation system with gyro monitoring and the homing device". This is for the R/ER and T/ET

Ok, then let's try to sum up this debate once and for all... Is the ET "Uber" in Lock On? Assuming a non manuevering or unaware target at launch... as is the case for a lot of TE kills in Lock On online. 1. We can use launch overide to shoot it in BVR or CAC modes... might not be the case IRL. 2. When using the sensor lock the missile will flyout towards the target when using launch overide and the missile can be launched for kills at ranges upwards of 25 km for a C-17... when not using it the seeker will acquire at a relatively short distance(7km head on for example unless it is in afterburner). 3. The missile will not acquire a target until it's about 7km head on once launched but if afterburner is on the missile will acquire and track at 13-14km. 4. The word "maddog" is being misused in this case... the only true maddog launch would be from a CAC mode with no lock using launch overide. In this case the missile does not get any information and will fly straight out until it sees something in it's FOV. This FOV is very small and the player must aim it or lead the target very precisely in order to get the missile to acquire the target when launched at ranges outside the normal "NP" range(7km). So, the big deal here is can the real IR missiles be launched prior to "NP" using launch overide... if it can't IRL then it becomes quite Uber comparatively but in Lock On with this capability it is not Uber in the fact the player must employ it correctly to get results and those results are normally against unaware targets at longer ranges and aware targets at close ranges(within the seekers own lock on range). Take away the overide capability and it becomes a big missile with little range. All IMO of course but feel free to add and do some testing. :)

Jens... by "lock" do mean have the "NP" cue appear or just a sensor lock and can you use launch overide for an IR shot(IRL)? In Lock On head on "NP" comes at about 6-7km and when launched outside that range the missile doesn't start tracking until about 7km. Tail on "NP" comes at 13km(C-17). The initial launch vector of the missile off the rail is at the target or where the target will be so there is information sent to the seeker prior to launch on a locked target and prior to the "NP" cue if launched in overide mode. A true maddog launch would be from a CAC mode and using launch overide and in this case the missile must be aimed by the longitudinal axis of the jet to meet the target quite precisely prior to launch when outside "NP" range for it to acquire the target.

No launch overide Jens?

Ok 3 degrees at what max range as I would assume the seeker FOV extends in a conical form.

Brerathtaking Lawndart!!! Amazing display of flying by you and the team!!

How "long" is long range in your opinion? I don't know what range and FOV limits the seeker might have but a "straw" seems a little extreme. :) and what has been mentioned here is that in Lock On players are trying to make that perfect shot by leading the target if it's a high angle off tail shot. Again, in Lock On, other IR noise isn't modeled so with respect to the sim that doesn't really matter.

Cool... looking forward to this!

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Too funny... we have the same discussion going on at a Canadian aviation forum... http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=17220 Guess who I am? :) And thanks for all the pics guys!