LanceCriminal86

The last 4 A models built, Block 140s from furthest to closest 162708, 162709, 162711, 162710:

OK, having listened to the sound clip I realize what OP was talking about, it's not the looping effect, but as he described it's various other tones in the background. I'm wondering if these are due to whatever method they are having to use to get sample clips of running engines and removing background noise? And yeah, I've been hearing this since forever and for some reason chalked it up to some kind of background sounds generated by the jet.

I've mentioned it from when 2.7 dropped so I believe they are aware of the turbine sounds having a bad loop effect. In fact I think I put it in one of the first replies to the 2.7 patch feedback thread and Cobra acknowledged it.

Look at photos of jets, make them in Photoshop (or Gimp I suppose).

Usually when a big feature is coming a teaser vid comes out, screenshots, something. I'd keep my expectations low so if something unexpected does arrive, it's a fun surprise. It makes getting yourself hyped up about something that wasn't promised not a problem anymore.

*H E A V Y B R E A T H I N G*

Seriously yes, we need more cold war AI assets like this. Stuff like TU-16s, or SU-15 Flagons.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Just trying to figure out how to have more than one TCS pod option has already proven a hurdle, and there's already a low chance of us even getting the slightly older Block 95 for the US. I don't think there's any chance of a Block 75 showing up in any form due to having to totally rework even more of the jet.

Unfortunately I have a feeling the answer is that either the documents themselves can't be found, or the Navy is keeping a close hold and not even wanting to do redacted versions of them. It would be nice to somehow request just the PTID's info from the various manuals and training courses but again, docs either shredded or locked away. You also have to consider where the info goes after the FOIA, they may have concerns about any of the info, even if declassified, being put into a sim owned by a non-US entity.

Right now every time I try to hop in and fly, I get more annoyed by the rest of the DCS engine (you know, UFO AI jets, 3d asset models from 1995, missiles and Jester doing lord knows what except killing targets, "Supercarriers" that still only have 4 terrible spawn points, bombs that have no splash damage to speak of that kind of kills the mood of doing some CAS, and the fact that ED chose to lock up all the LUAs that helped with some of those issues), to the point where I get a lot more enjoyment out of researching and painting jets. I mean yeah, we got pretty new clouds for taking screenshots. Unfortunate side effect of ADHD and maybe a dab of autism that comes out of staring at and searching for photos of specific BuNOs to get them just right is that you start to look at all the "stupid" little details, what block a jet was, stencils that were different on one airframe than another, patches or repairs to, that kind of stuff. That leads to wanting as many of the details to be right, which leads to getting on Cobra's s*** list for poking about ALQ-126 antennas and beaver tails. I'll endeavor to get the T-45C loaded and try to just work on the Case I pattern for a while. That, and I need to see if this Virpil stick and extension help with A2A refueling, where I felt like I needed a much gentler and finer control over my T16000M. And honestly, one of the things I've enjoyed most out of some of this full blown autism is that it led me to actually get to talk to some of the folks from VF-201 about the jet, their time in the squadron, guys digging out logbooks and shoeboxes of old photos, remembering names, and generally having a good time listening. They've been super generous with photos and whatever information they have, or have gotten me in touch with the guys that had it. It's not every day you get to chat with the pilot and RIO (who was the CO) about a digital jet you've spent well over a year working on. It's also kind of fun getting guys back on the gear doors who wrenched on these jets and worked to be the plane captains; a guy was looking for pics of his name on the gear door and sure enough I had one stashed away, and naturally since it was the jet I was working on I put him on there. It may seem weird but to me it's cool that some years from now people are going to maybe see some guy's name on a landing gear door, or on a canopy rail, and a little piece of history is preserved. And, it's been cool to see a bunch of those VF-201 and 202 jets, some of which you almost certainly had hours in Victory, went and put warheads on foreheads with VF-14, VF-41, VF-211, and I think even VF-154 there in 2001-2004 or so. I'd really like DCS performance with VR to get to a more accessible level. The parts I really struggle with in the pattern involve trying to watch my airspeed, altitude, AOA, etc. while also looking over my shoulder at the boat to try and gauge when to make turns, and it always turns to garbage (no pun intended). Not that having the Supercarrier/LSO dialed for Hornets helps that last part of the pattern any.

That said, there were features per block that were known, ie. older blocks wouldn't have had certain features unless upgraded, but newer blocks for certain had, like the ALQ-126 antennas. I believe Block 110 is where the new style beaver tail and ALQ-126 were added and included on subsequent blocks. So most Block 110 and higher should be visually almost indistinguishable, and systems wise few changes were made. Blocks lower than that had some minor changes like the added nose alpha probe I think at Block 95, and of course the "standard" beaver tail that was used after to the original blocks that hit the fleet which had a slightly different beaver tail, I think in the Block 70 and/or 75 jets when that changed. From what I'm seeing though, it doesn't look like all block changes were retrofitted, for example the ALQ-126 antennas, or the alpha probe on the nosecone. It looks like the only major changes externally were things like reinforcement plates being added to the vertical stabilizers and retrofitted to earlier jets. There were many modifications over time, that's very clear. Some upgrades are pretty clear cut, like gun ports being done by the mid 90s. But just from looking at the groupings of BuNOs from the VF-14 and VF-41 jets that were deployed for Allied Force in 1999, it definitely wasn't unilateral. Not all of their As had the ALR-67 upgrades, something I'm curious to see about what their final Tomcat cruises showed. That training document I linked seems to lay out quite nicely a lot of the performed and planned upgrades as of 1998. I guess the other questions would be whether other systems in years prior like the VHF/UHF antennas were upgraded over time. Really you just have to look at each jet and as many photos as possible to look for obvious cues. I don't think it looks like jets other than the Block 60/65 to 130 rebuilds, and any A to B/D conversions went back for a significant block to block overhaul, like I'm not seeing Block 95s that later got the ALQ-126 and upgraded beaver tail, ALR-67, etc. So to some degrees the jets did stay as-delivered with upgrades under the skin, but only to a certain point where it seems the Navy prioritized lower time airframes and newer blocks for upgrades. That's why those rebuilt Block 60/65s lasted so long in service, because they actually got a mid-life refresh when Grumman remanufactured them in the mid 80s. Before that they were all the testbed jets at Pax River and VX-4, etc. 158612 was the oldest Tomcat to serve in the fleet, being a Block 60, #612 at Pax, later sent to Davis Monthan, then back to Grumman where it was rebuilt to Block 130 or 135 specs, from there to VF-202, to VF-201 after 202 shut down, and then lastly to VF-41 through late 2001 before going to mothballs/death in early 2002.

I believe some of the B Upgrade stuff included GPS integrations to combine with INS or replace it? There's a training doc draft from 1998 floating around out there that lays out the highlights of the B (Upgrade) programs: https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/ntsp-F14.pdf I've been digging through it a few times to see if perhaps there are training courses or materials that could be somehow requested, or at least redacted copies with only specific portions for the PTID, but I suspect it will be the same issue of either "classified" or "shredded/disposed of". I am curious how much some of the RIOs out there from that 1996-2006 time period could remember. One guy may not have the whole picture but get a bunch of RIOs together with some of the Avionics guys and maybe someone from Honeywell, with some Navy/Grumman approval of some kind, and enough heads might be able to fill in some of the gaps. Another thing, I noticed it's listed elsewhere that the S-3B was LANTIRN capable. Any odd chance it could have used a similar display in the back for the system? Wouldn't that be funny if some critical info were discovered in S-3B documents, in some weird chance the same PTID model was used in it.

It looks like by 1997 VF-103 had Bs with the GPS antenna, but the angles I have for 95/96 don't show it. I swear I saw them listed in one of the detailed studies of LANTIRN feasibility that they were the fleet squadron that did a bunch of the testing and technically got it first, so they'd be the first ones I'd expect to see it on. Do you guys have a listing of the menus on the PTID? I'd guess you have at least partials for the radar and LANTIRN pages but 12 pages seems like a lot of functions. I'd be curious how many of them were even implemented on the jet. Who knows, might find out some of them weren't in use? Also has it ever been determined if the PTID used was the same or similar to any other airframes? -- EDIT: Just found a May 1996 pic from David Brown that shows the GPS dome. I'll keep looking.

True on the D fishbowl, but I think it's been hashed out as being an entirely different animal to the A/B one. I guess the way I look at it, is that if we're representing the "as first tested" from what, 1994-1996 timeframe that VF-103 and whichever other squadrons were involved with LANTIRN tests as the way to have LANTIRN and fishbowl, then I'm still curious if they had to install the GPS antenna at that time or not. I guess the place to look then is VF-103 from about 1995-1999 and see when GPS domes showed up. Because it may be that the initial tests without the PTID were also before they determined the GPS antenna was needed. The various DTIC presentations and training docs I had read about the whole digital bus upgrades, LANTIRN, PTID, etc. indicated that the LANTIRN's onboard GPS is why it could be used without the Tomcat needing to have its own integrated GPS system like other targeting pods did, so I had delineated that from the adding of a GPS antenna. I'd like to ask around a bit more about it in the Tomcat Association, and I'm sure you guys have already done some of that but I'd like to verify as well. There's a decent chance some folks from the program are in there that did the initial testing, I'm fairly sure I've seen some posts from folks that were either with Strike Test or 103, plus the guys with VF-41 that did the first actual combat drop albeit buddy lased. And I'm personally serious that I would be happy with a visual PTID that's incomplete on the back end outside of the menus and functions we currently have. There are some shots of the PTID pages here and there, and while I know we don't have a 100% breakdown of every single menu page, I feel like it may be possible to map out the PTID enough by interviewing some of the various RIOs out there who may be young enough to remember. Guys like the "Tomcat Cockpit POV" and "Air Tales" Youtube channels look to have been RIOs at the time we are talking about, one in the A with 211 the other in a B with VF-11. I guess I'm curious if anyone has mapped out a flow of what exactly is known, what is known to be missing, and what might be unknown to get a functional PTID. It may be that by trying to find out what we don't know, we can figure out what the right questions to ask are. I think some folks would be fine with certain pages being unavailable if they aren't directly critical to the operation of the radar or LANTIRN, and if they are backed up by traditional instruments.

So first, I must ceremoniously insert foot into mouth, if we go off of the ~1999+ timeframe of A models and LANTIRN, then the GPS dome does appear prominently. I was under the impression those domes were tied to the integrated GPS in-cockpit that replaced or supplemented the INS system but it appears it was needed for the LANTIRN's GPS. Around that time RIOs were using store bought GPS units (which might be fun to try and model). I also retract my statements about the ALR-67 blisters by the glove vanes, I went back and did a closer comparison to the F-14D areas and they are pronouncedly different. The D model ones stretch further up to the tips of the intakes, while the A/B ones are closer to the glove vane openings. It doesn't seem like there was a 100% deployment of ALR-67 upgrades to A models though, but rather some jets got it, others did not. Allied force in 1999 shows only a couple out of VF-14 and 41's contingent of A model jets. That said, It looks to me like most A models representing the early half of the 1990s shouldn't have them, so whatever is done with the "early" 135 or whatever Block is chosen to be the earlier US jet, would need that area reworked. I still think a Block 95 would well represent the 80s timeframe of the Libya shootdowns, and into the 90s, right up to LANTIRN adoption and the shift to Air to Ground quite well, before the upgrades that currently make the "late" -135. While older blocks with ALR-45 do appear to have that same area bare/ochre, they are not the pronounced bulges we're seeing on B models and the As that appear to have the full ALR-67 upgrades. On the GPS dome I do see them on some of the 1999 and 2000 A models from Allied Force and VF-211's millennium cruise, in 2002 with VF-154 and VF-103, with LANTIRN pods hung. https://www.airfighters.com/photo/63232/M/USA-Navy/Grumman-F-14A-Tomcat/162696/ The problem is, again, everything I'm reading points to those jets having PTID in order to even use the LANTIRN. At what point is it not better to have a WIP/Incomplete PTID based on as much information as can be gathered from SMEs and NATOPS and documentation, than to have a patently "incorrect" fishbowl? I know it's a loophole to give us LANTIRN, but I'd rather have an incomplete PTID that gets built out as more documentation becomes available.

To be fairrrrr, Block does matter, as certain blocks "must" have certain features and equipment, while earlier Blocks "may" have been upgraded to a similar electronics or system, they also may not have received all of the visual cues or equipment of a later block. Just as the D model has features not seen on the B and A, some blocks and upgraded blocks had features not seen on previous blocks upgraded to the same "Standard". Case in point, presenting a Block 135 in any for means, at a minimum, there were equipment features that MUST be there, the aforementioned ALQ-126 antennas by the intakes and beaver tail, the radome alpha probe. On the other hand, there were earlier block jets that did still serve into the 90s alongside the Block 110+ jets, but never received the same upgrades. One of those is 160396, which had the old beaver tail, no ALQ-126 antenna, and was flown to AMARG in 1998. And the early block jets rebuilt to Block 130 that I always like to mention retained some very early features while also having the Block 130 equipment like the late beaver tail and ALQ-126 ECM package. BUT, it wouldn't be appropriate to have say a Block 85 or 90 with the early 7 port gun vents, just as a Block 135 without ALQ-126 is equally "off". There's nothing wrong or bad with selecting the Block 135, and then having an "as built" 80s version and a representative 90s to late 90s version, it's a logical block choice because many of the A model Tomcats that survived to fight past the late 90s into the 2000s in Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts WERE Block 130s, 135s, etc. Earlier block jets naturally were reaching high hours on their airframes and were not selected for upgrades versus the newer 110+ Blocks of Tomcats that already had the ALQ-126 suite and provisions to receive the ALR-67 RWR. If you look at photos from Allied Force as I mentioned before, you still see a mixture of features but most of them again were the later Blocks or the former VF-201/202 remanufactured 60/65 to 130 jets. All seemed to have ALQ-126 etc but only a few had the ALR-67 RWR features. What I AM saying, is that if that's the goal, it should be done right. The good news is that Cobra doesn't have to rework as much stuff for the "late" or modernized 135 and B model because they did share a good number of features. That said, there are a number of D model features that will need to be trimmed out aside from the obvious ALQ-165 ECM vents, as the existing blisters ahead of the glove vanes are wrong for both our B and modernized A models. The A/B ALR-67 blisters were a different shape and position because the D didn't have glove vanes so they were positioned differently. I also point that out because it might actually make more sense to have the "early" A model be a US Block 95. Why? If the work is to be done to have the Iranian A model exterior be "correct" by backdating the gun vents and beaver tail, then really you've done nearly everything you needed to do instead of also having to take the A model, add Block 135 features, and then backdate that model to Block 135 factory fresh by removing the visual vestiges of the ALR-67 system. With the Block 95, functionally the work done on the "early" 135 with ALR-45/50 can drop right on it, as there did not appear to be significant system differences between the 95 and 135 outside of the addition of the ALQ-126. Keep the TCS, tone down the jamming to represent the lack of the ALQ-126, and voila. A jet that represents the 80s Libya shoot down Tomcats, and made it through at least 1998 or so. Then your modernized 135 gets to represent the 90s upgraded jets that got LANTIRN and soldiered on through the early 00s, minus that pesky little PTID our A and B should have. This probably isn't the most exhaustive breakdown of Block features, but it's a good reference to look for major system changes or at the least visual cues. I've been trying to dig in and see what other more in-depth changes may have been made from the -95 to the -135 that go beyond this list and would actually affect systems coding: https://modelingmadness.com/review/mod/us/usn/fighter/gar14adiff.htm

Not "early", but "As it rolled off the Grumman line in 1983-85 or so". And yes. But also no. Many jets rolled out with the "bullet fairing", and had the TCS installed in their destination squadron as they were available. Some were probably shipped out with the TCS complete. But the 135 should have either a bullet fairing or full TCS. Hell there were still Tomcats rolling around in the late 80s to early 90s with no TCS and just the ALQ-100 in the Reserves. I personally have vested most of my time researching VF-201 and VF-202, who primarily received the early NATC/Pax River test jets that were rebuilt to Block 130 specs, each received 2 of the last 4 A models built, Block 140s right off the showroom floor. Those jets were delivered with bullet fairings and were seen that way for what looks like at least a few years (1986/87 - early 90s). They also had some other older block jets rotate through, including a Block 95 that was 6 jets behind one of the Mig or Sukhoi killers. That one was their last CAG jet in 1998, had no ALQ-126 antennas or the indicators of the ALR-45, the older beaver tail, and a TCS. Many of their jets later went to VF-211, VF-14, and VF-41 where they were mixed in with other As that got the ALR-67 upgrades, and some may have gotten some upgrades as well for LANTIRN, but not the ALR-67 or other RWR/ECM upgrades as the photos from Allied Force and Global War on Terror don't seem to show those features present. If you are digging around and see BuNos in the 1586XX range from around 158612 onwards, very high chance it was a VF-201/202 jet and was a Pax River test jet. Some of them still had the old old 7 vent gun vents into the 90s before 202's jets were upgraded with the NACA style.

I've been digging into this a lot lately. A proper "Block 135" jet from when it was produced is going to have quite a few little visual differences, and the aforementioned system differences. To get to a mid 80s Block 135 as delivered, you'd need to take the existing jet and remove: - The "blisters" just forward of the wing gloves that are part of the ALR-67 RWR. - The blister on the left nose landing gear door. - The GPS antenna on the spine that theoretically none of the represented A or B models should have. - Disable LANTIRN, but potentially keep some / all of the A2G capabilities, even keep ability to carry GBU still as buddy lasing did happen in the first combat drop. You also need to add: - ALQ-126 antenna around engine intakes. - Older gun ports, not the early early 7-port ones but the 2-port vents. NACA style were a 90s update across the board for in-service jets. - Apparently ALR-50 blade antennas, one on the "turtleback" and one on right nose landing gear door. As already said, later in the 90s various upgrades were made to some jets, to include ALR-67, LANTIRN/Digital BUS/PTID, some got DFCS, GPS, and a few other myriad changes. They weren't universal, they weren't fleet wide, but some of them were concentrated into the remaining A model squadrons in the early 00s. I've seen photos from Allied Force that Vflip has been using for his VF-41/14 skins, and there's a mix in there of the different antennas I pointed out above. Whether we are going to get exactly that will be up to Cobra as it's going to require further reworks of the visual model in addition to a number of fixes needed. Some of the above are also related to the B external model, in theory an "updated" 135 as currently presented would be very close to the B that we have, with the same ALR-67 blisters and removed ALR-50 antennas, the same added ALQ-126 antennas, both missing the GPS (unless that was specifically part of the LANTIRN) integration. And to go down another rabbit hole, the Iranian (or US version for that matter) Block 95 has a number of other visual changes, taking the "early" 135 and remove the ALQ-126 (like the current model), change the beaver tail to the older one without the blocky jammer antenna, the older gun vents, remove the small bulges in front of the glove vanes. There's a chance we may only get the "early" 135 with an Iranian paint job and some systems turned off but here's hoping we get the right visual model, as it would also be super useful for proper 80s Tomcat action with the US systems turned back on.

Went back and followed the suggested "-2" thing, and it's working perfectly now. This tool is definitely a big help!

You're in too far to quit.

Gigabytes of my own skins for A and B, no crashes. Only issue I had like yours was tied to VPC ground assets mod and the lighting towers, caused a total lock at 1/61 or whatever.

Not really "early", more like earliER and only by a little. The Block 135s were built in the late 80s and feature wise is not far off where we are now. And the visual model has a lot of things that have to be redone for the A and B, not only to correct errors but add visual features currently missing. It's possible there are slowdowns there in order to just go back and do it once and do it right.

Last I asked it was in the same state as previous released pics.