fearlessfrog

Tempted to rollback to 1809 for science? ;) (I don't blame if you don't want to, but just curious if this impacts the Reverb like the O+. If you sell or return it without actually seeing the native resolution then it might be a shame. Or could be that it makes no difference.)

Native O+ resolution is 1440x1600. The warp scale factor per axis (the panels are tall, not square) are: 1440 x 1.43888 = 2072 1600 x 1.61375 = 2582 So the nearest we can get to 2072 x 2582 in SteamVR using the percentage slider (which changes both axes assuming the same scaling) is 2076 x 2592, which is 212%. What'll really blow your noodle is that the WMR engineers did this deliberately, as the 'out of the box' defaults means that it is undersampling quite a lot, so people get better framerates. That's great if you're hitting colored boxes with a lightsabre, not so good trying to read the SA MFD in the Hornet.

Bit of a long shot, but in your SteamVR is it showing as 90 Hz in your SteamVR settings? On my O+ when I put it to 60Hz it goes really dull, so wondering if a bug here for that. Really unlikely but thought I should say. Also for people saying their HP Reverb experiences, it would be really interesting to see if you're using Win10 latest (version 1903) or the version without the WMR bug (we think) 1809. Because the experiences seem different it would be great to correlate the two if possible. (To quickly see your Windows build number run 'winver' from the Start cmd, it'll be on the second line, i.e. 'Version 1809').

Check your SteamVR 'Settings / Video' tab and make sure it is set to 100% first with 'Enable custom resolution' ticked. Otherwise SteamVR will automatically choose a value based on your system performance, which I'm guessing you're seeing now. The 'Applications' tab in that settings area also allows you to vary per VR app the resolution used, but it is a multiplier over the value shown in the Video tab. To make life simpler it is best to leave Application to 100% and just change the Video value. If that is set to 100% then the render settings in SteamVR for the O+ should be 1424x1780. The '1.4x' stuff is because the view inside VR is a bit like a fish-eye lens, as in detailed in the middle with a 'wrapped around' image for how you can see in each eye on the periphery. Because SteamVR needs to 'warp' the game to make that view, the resolution you should give it (for maximum text reading clarity like a cockpit) is about 1.4 times what is shown. The Vive and Vive Pro use 1.4, but each WMR headset make is slightly different (because the fresnel lens and panels are different sizes/specs). For the O+ if you use about 212% then you'll be using a 2076x2592 resolution in SteamVR, which is 100% native panel resolution including this 'warping' that goes on. That way you end up with the sweet spot at more or less 100% native panel pixel resolution. The Vive and Vive Pro (because they are from Valve/Steam) already include this 100% = native panel resolution * 1.4x needed for warp, while WMR does not, hence confusing. So, why 212%? Well it's because the O+ lens/panels are designed around a 1.44x by 1.61x warp ratio (different to the Vive or Vive Pro plain 1.4x). You're aiming for 2072x2582, so the 212% gives you the nearest you can get to that in SteamVR, which is 2076x2592 (because you only have a single slider adjustment value for both axes to play with). The current Windows 1903 bug limits any source for the warping to a hard limit of 1657x2065, which is why it looks clearer before the bug on Win10 version 1809 - so hopefully they fix that soon). Hope that helps explain it a bit more.

That's a fair point, only ED could answer that for sure. In things like Unreal and Unity the target resolution is requested from the driver (think of it like how a monitor would enumerate what resolution is was supporting) and then the game usually uses that to make up the final scene size. DCS was quite early to VR in some ways, so they offered a in-engine setting of their own as a multiplier. SteamVR used to use a different scale similar to DCS's, but changed it to the percentage when they realized that different headsets had different aspect ratios, so the Oculus way of '1.2' was too large a set of steps I guess. I've never seen a visual difference between A then B etc, but would love to see it if it can be worked out.

I really only meant to mean that because DCS PD and SteamSS effectively do the same thing and combine, then like Panthera_Tigris replied, it was just easier to change just one 'end' of the A + B = C equation, especially as the DCS PD is quadratic and the SteamSS is its only funny scale. At the end of the day PD 1.6 and SS 0 or PD 1.0 and SS 190% is all good if it means the center of the warp is clearer for people reading gauges etc. I think it's because in a lot of common games the ability to read cockpits or text clearly isn't so much of a big deal. We're a bit of a niche, so the WMR people picked low defaults out of the box that are more suited for something like Beat Sabre than DCS. WMR is a pain (and like imacken said, roll on the native implementation in DCS) but one tip I got used to do is (1) put on the headset (2) in the WMR 'house' use the Desktop widget to click the DCS icon. If you do it the otherway around then WMR gets confused on what 'owns' the mouse pointer (due to the sensor in the headset detecting if worn or not). The WMR bug here seems to be it gets out of 'sync' with that, so doing the above steps every time makes it work reliably. I personally would start with DCS PD at 1.0 and try 188% and see how that goes. Because we're talking personal clarity then we're going to see different people seeing different results, due to IPD, DCS settings like MSAA used plus even different versions of windows, WMR, WMR for SteamVR and SteamVR itself! :)

In that you wrote: > my Vive Pro defaults to 100% which SteamVR reports as 2016x2240! 2016 x 2240 is 1.4x (the SteamVR render scale target for pre-warp, as mentioned above) of the native resolution of 1440 x 1600. So SteamVR 100% SS by default. EDIT: I should expand on that a bit. It's like why the Odyssey Plus is clearer with a DCS PD of 1.0 and a SteamVR SS of 210%. The base resolution of the O+ at SteamVR 100% SS is reported as 1426x1779. If you increase it to 210% (2064x2576 per eye) then you can see it is taking the native resolution of 1440x1600 and getting close to that 1.4x warp distortion size. What that means is that in the center the pixels are the clearest because they are close to 1 pixel per 1 native pixel where you need it the most. For sims and clarity that helps a lot.

The renderTargetScale is used to make the scene bigger so it apply a distortion warp, so that it looks correct when viewed in the lens and panels. Think of it sort of like a fisheye image because we aren't viewing a flat 2D box. Before: After: That buffer has a hard limit, so that renderTargetScale == 1: Limit is 1657x2065 per eye, while renderTargetScale == 2: Limit is 2072x2582 per eye. SteamVR (when not using WMR for SteamVR) uses a default 1.4x value. What this means is that even if you use super sampling to increase the resolution sent to the headset, the 'source data' of what is up sampled is bigger or smaller (more detailed / less detailed), dependent on the renderTargetScale value. Put another way, even if you request a more detailed image / higher resolution, it hard limits it at the that stage of the pipeline regardless. It still gives the headset more pixels, but it is upsampling something of a lower detail, making it look fuzzier. That's not a great explanation, but that's what I've got :)

Yep, just the Windows Mixed Reality for SteamVR part. If you have a HTC Vive it would use SteamVR direct, and if you use Oculus it would either use the Oculus SDK or SteamVR. On the Samsung Odyssey Plus the bug is quite noticeable, because that uses the WMR for SteamVR app to run DCS via its SteamVR API. I'm pretty sure it will be fixed and rolled out in 1903, but sometimes it's hard to find out what fixes are in each plain Win10 update. Hopefully not long though. Btw, this is all of us just trying to figure it out as we go. I wrote some stuff here to try to gather what I've found out so far: https://forums.mudspike.com/t/vr-news-hp-reverb-second-gen-headsets-are-on-the-way/8165/266?u=fearlessfrog

The WMR setting 'renderTargetScale' being stuck on 1.0 on 1903 is separate from SteamVR SS and PD, as it is something that happens before that stage. Think of it as the 'source' image that happens before any SS. The new default in the settings file is 2.0, but it's ignored if past Win10 1809. I don't think you'll find someone from Microsoft to give you a reliable source that they caused a bug, other than the links that were provided to you. If you don't see a difference between 1809 and 1903 then don't worry about it and sim on. A Microsoft rep on reddit chatted about what the value is used for, to the extent that it got changed by default to the new larger value, just because people could have clearer displays: Again, there is no real way to prove this person works for Microsoft.

A personal preference I think, I much prefer SteamVR rather than Oculus, but to each their own. A lot of it is what we got used to first and know best. Perhaps the unfamiliarity with SteamVR meant it wasn't set up correctly (the SteamVR defaults on the dev Index are not ideal out of the box), or with WMR software running causing confusion? Anyway, I think the real feature of the Valve Index is the 144 Hz refresh rate, the lens / IPD adjustments for long time use, and especially the hand controllers - not a perfect fit for sims. For DCS and sit-down sims in general, people are probably best looking at the HP Reverb (on the high end, i.e. 1080+ GPUs) for the resolution, or if below that sort of sim system hardware level, then the Rift S is great as a budget/good value solution.

The Valve Index doesn't use Windows Mixed Reality (WMR), as Valve would just use SteamVR (of course). It doesn't sound like you've been testing an Index? Perhaps something else?

I'm still trying to even establish if the Reverb is impacted by the bug. It would seem likely as the other WMR headsets are, plus might explain why people get different results, as many are still on Win10 1809 while others manually updated or fresh installed to 1903. For my Odyssey Plus it was very noticeable, to the extent I went back to my Rift. It was only finding out later than it was a 1903 WMR bug literally making things fuzzier in DCS. Thanks!

It's worse than that. :) SteamVR by default will set the resolution dynamically based on your hardware profile (mainly just the GPU you have) and nearly always gets it wrong. If you have a 1080/2080 class card it will probably default to 150% for all WMR devices, even if they have different native panel resolutions. For sims it is best to tick 'Settings / Video / 'Enable custom resolution' otherwise SteamVR will adjust it per title in the 'Applications' area. It works ok for general VR games, but for extra clarity it is nicer to adjust manually. https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/1661138371528106606 The base Vive uses a 1.4 x that resolution to account for barrel distortion (sometimes called pre-warp), while on the WMR side that is 'renderTargetScale' set in the 'default.vrsettings' file in your \SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\MixedRealityVRDriver\resources\settings location. That's the bit that is broke on Win10 1903 so far. It's quite complicated, and it will be great when DCS goes native WMR calls. Props to ED for looking at that.

That looks good Gizzy. I'm surprised that even the 2080Ti can burn through that enough for a MSAA x2. Impressive. The DCS Pixel Density and SteamVR will always be combined if used, so keeping it to PD 1.0 and then adjusting on the SteamVR side just makes the math easier. In WMR any SteamVR reprojection settings are ignored anyway, it always just uses the WMR settings 'auto' value for reprojection alone. In the SteamVR settings section, under 'Video' what does that report as 'per eye' resolution on the Reverb at 188%? Thanks for posting your settings.

The 'Windows Mixed Reality for SteamVR' app allows WMR to be used on Steam/OpenVR API games. All DCS World WMR users have to use it, until we get a native WMR use. The 'renderTargetScale' setting value is used to tell WMR an internal resolution to use before it is either up or downscaled and given to SteamVR to use. It is separate and before anything you do in either SteamVR or DCS PD settings. Info on the values it uses here. In the latest Win10 1903 release there is a bug that locks renderTargetScale to a maximum of 1.0, meaning that the back buffer can be no larger than 1657x2065 per eye. This is lower than native res for the Reverb. Microsoft have acknowledged the bug but no fix as yet, other than rolling back to Win10 1809. More info on that here. What release of Windows 10 you using imacken? 1809 or the latest 1903?

Agreed, although even 188% is below native due to the 'shape' that SteamVR uses for all headsets. People seem to be really struggling to understand (or even actively ignoring) this. What is happening is that people are using DCS PD and not realizing it is always combined with the WMR and SteamVR settings. The WMR renderTargetScale value (still broke on Win10 1903) is not the same as SteamVR SS, it's earlier in the pipeline so has an impact whatever the SS or PD. The SteamVR default is set by video card profile unless overridden, so the likely setting would be 150%, which is a resolution of 1969x1930 per eye, well under the native resolution of 2160x2160. Plus, that's assuming DCS PD was set to 1.0. Combining them is using a two different scales, making it more confusing.

One interesting thing will be undersampling, which we've not seen a lot of in VR. It might be the case that DCS running at a SteamVR supersampling of 80% is still clearer than a Rift S or Odyssey Plus at 150%, while having very similar hardware needs. Wags - when you do set the Reverb up, please try with a DCS Pixel Density of 1.0 and use the SteamVR settings 'Video' 'Enable custom resolution' to something like 210% (or whatever makes the per eye setting 2160x2160, on how SteamVR sees the Reverb base resolution). That will give you a proper view of how things look at the panel's native resolution (or close to it, SteamVR dimensions means there's some remapping). Also, Win10 1903 currently reduces the render quality of WMR to half (from the default of 2.0) so you will have to roll back to 1809 if you use the newer version. Microsoft have acknowledged the bug and are working on a fix, but if you have 1903 then it won't look as good as it should (that goes for other WMR headsets too). One of the things that is a problem from the HP Reverb as a general VR headset is how basic and awkward WMR is to use, and how many things are not set up correctly out of the box. It's frustrating as often the hardware is ok. The Index and the Rift S don't have this issues so much. The video here: ..is a little frustrating, as the maker didn't enabled the WMR reprojection, undersampled to a 1609x1576 per eye resolution (far under the native panel res), and then used the lower 60 Hz option to make it work. While that's not a terrible idea, it's a little unusual, in that a 90 / 45 fps reprojection split would be more common (with some reduction in DCS settings like MSAA) and more typical of what we'd use. I look forward to Matt's take on the headset.

Quick question - are we meant to reapply this Visualizer.dll each time after a patch/update or will the open beta use the .lua settings file for the Odyssey already there?

Sparkam - that settings technique really helped. About as clear as I've ever seen the O+ like this, by swapping the values via the files. Thanks!

I think the 'Make Symmetric Using Left' change works better for me on an Odyssey Plus. It seems clearer. I tried to do the swap top/bottom etc values but the sliders make it hard to get them exact. Thanks for your ongoing investigation in all this Alex.

Here you go - seems to work quite nicely on an Oculus Rift with up-to-date SteamVR (beta), Oculus Services and Nvidia drivers and the last open beta. No more crash on exit to desktop. This can serve as a workaround while ED takes a look. Use the following short-cut: "X\DCS World OpenBeta\bin\DCS.exe" --force_steam_VR Note: Check your SteamVR settings if you are not familiar with them, as in, check the SteamVR/Settings/Video tab and set a manual override for the application resolution you want, turn off the 'pause rendering when headset is idle' in Settings/Developer. In the latest SteamVR reprojection is on by default and cannot be changed.

Just a quick note to show our updated Chuck's Guide library update: http://www.mudspike.com/chucks-guides/ Of interest mainly regarding DCS here (obviously :) ) but all the other guides are collected together as well. Thanks to Charly_Owl for working with us on this and for the awesome guides.

Incorrect, for about 3 years now. Publishers decide their own prices. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-02-27-developers-can-now-set-their-own-steam-sales

Great - thanks for the quick response. Our forums software converts PNG uploads to JPG previews to speed up big thread load times and the like. The bit it is now failing at is the PNG conversion, as it thinks it is corrupt. I've put in a workaround to turn off that, but it means people will get to see lovely Harriers at 3 MB a pop rather than the measly 200 kb JPEG will used to give them (unless you click on the image).