Alfredson007 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I am taking my first steps with the MiG, and my goal is first to know how to fly the plane and land well (landing seems quite a challenge actually which is nice).. But i can't figure out what am i doing wrong, i have afterburner on, i am trying to get up as fast as possible, but it takes forever, i struggle even between 30-40m/s constant v/s (way less than 10000 feet per minute) ... now according to Wikipedia the Mig21 should climb to 10km in less than 3 minutes... in 3 minutes i am maybe in 3-4 kilometers if even there and then it gets harder to climb... my nose cone is on automatic, and yes, the landing gear is up and flaps :) And this is on instant mission from runway. (no missiles) Huge thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJohnxx Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Hi, Could you please provide a track? A track can be saved on the debriefing screen after you finished a mission. You can directly upload it when creating an answer to the this thread. It would help out to figure out what the problem is. Best regards, John Check out my YouTube: xxJohnxx Intel i7 6800k watercooled | ASUS Rampage V Edition 10 | 32 GB RAM | Asus GTX1080 watercooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 What's the airspeed you're flying at? Going too slow will not help. Also see the thread about extreme high flying at http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=132962 and some of the profiles people use to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The standard climb profile is: 1. Take off at afterburner 2. At 600kmh, go to military power. 3. Climb to 1000 meters while accelerating to 870kmh on the true airspeed indicator. 4. Climb to 10000 meters maintaining an indicated airspeed of 870kmh. I've never timed it, but following that profile gets you up high very quickly. Black Shark, Harrier, and Hornet pilot Many Words - Serial Fiction | Ka-50 Employment Guide | Ka-50 Avionics Cheat Sheet | Multiplayer Shooting Range Mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORTHMAN Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The standard climb profile is: 1. Take off at afterburner 2. At 600kmh, go to military power. 3. Climb to 1000 meters while accelerating to 870kmh on the true airspeed indicator. 4. Climb to 10000 meters maintaining an indicated airspeed of 870kmh. I've never timed it, but following that profile gets you up high very quickly. I do exactly the same, without the military power. Take off, take enough speed (for me around 1000 kph) and pull back gently. As fishbreat said maintain you're speed aroud 850-900 and thats it.:thumbup: Landing the mig is an other story... i practice it a lot (40 hours) and still i break landing gear sometime! Prend ton temps mais fait ca vite :cold:... LG34''21:9 Asus 23''monitors Intel i7-4590 EVGA 1070 Superclocked Gskills 4x4G RAM Fatal1ty AsRock Z97 killer motherboard in a HAF black box with 4 CH products plug in and logitech G510, F310, M510 and M570 plus trackIR 5! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Case Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The standard climb profile is: 1. Take off at afterburner 2. At 600kmh, go to military power. 3. Climb to 1000 meters while accelerating to 870kmh on the true airspeed indicator. 4. Climb to 10000 meters maintaining an indicated airspeed of 870kmh. I've never timed it, but following that profile gets you up high very quickly. I basically did this with burner the other day, took me 2:30 or 3:00 (can't remember) from standstill to 10 000 m. Make sure you follow the true air speed indicator, otherwise your pitch will be way to low after a few 1000 meters. :) http://www.masterarms.se A Swedish Combat Flight Simulator Community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The fact the OP didn't mention what speed he was climbing at may suggest this is the problem. Get nice and fast and then climb. In a supersonic dive to the deck you can zoom climb back up over 10km ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfredson007 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thanks for your answers! I tried again, i am doing my best to keep the suggested IAS/TAS speeds, i get them close enough... how ever.... After 3 minutes, i was at 4 kilometers according to the altimeter, and the vertical speed averaged about... 40+ meters per second or so, which is 8000 feet per minute x 3 = so i should be at... 6-8 kilometers... how ever my altimeter showed very different readings... and at one point the altimeter actually went towards down for a 200 meters then started to go up again? Yes i am absolutely positivite which is altimeter gauge =) Somehow, i have a feeling that the altimeter is not giving me a correct reading perhaps? It seems ok on the runway though.. EDIT: The plane was again on its default settings when on runway in the beginning. The engine rpm gives me 100% or a bit more (yellow area) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effte Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 A track would be a good thing. ----- Introduction to UTM/MGRS - Trying to get your head around what trim is, how it works and how to use it? - DCS helos vs the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboHog Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Where did the 3 minute to 10000 m myth come from? It is bullshit. Maybe that is with afterburner. It's a better idea to refer to the official pilot's manual: In your case: 7 minutes for a clean configuration to get to 10000 m. Almost 10 minutes if you carry two missiles and a 490L drop tank... 'Frett' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JorgeIII Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) ... how ever my altimeter showed very different readings... and at one point the altimeter actually went towards down for a 200 meters then started to go up again? Yes i am absolutely positivite which is altimeter gauge =) Somehow, i have a feeling that the altimeter is not giving me a correct reading perhaps? It seems ok on the runway though.. Thats probably because transonic flight static pitot error. Only happens around mach 1. Just don't stay too long at transonic flight, is not efficient (too much drag), go faster or slower. While having the altimeter error at transonic flight, vertical velocity works just fine and is a good reference. I don't know if it should be this way, as far as know in RL vertical speed instrument should be linked to pitot tube / static line too. Edited February 15, 2015 by JorgeIII AKA TANGO-117. DCS Modules: ALL. I7 6700k @ 4.9 GHz / 32 GB DDR4 @ 3.2 GHz / 950 Pro m.2 + 4xSSDs / Gigabyte 1080TI 11 GB OC / 48" 4K Curved Samsung TV / TM Warthog Hotas / TM TPR rudder pedals / Track IR. Private pilot and sailplane pilot in RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JorgeIII Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Regarding the thread topic have a look here:http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=130722 AKA TANGO-117. DCS Modules: ALL. I7 6700k @ 4.9 GHz / 32 GB DDR4 @ 3.2 GHz / 950 Pro m.2 + 4xSSDs / Gigabyte 1080TI 11 GB OC / 48" 4K Curved Samsung TV / TM Warthog Hotas / TM TPR rudder pedals / Track IR. Private pilot and sailplane pilot in RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORTHMAN Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I try exactly what i write and from 0 kph on the track to 10000m in the air took me 2min40sec. takeoff, reach 1000kph and climb at 30 degree to 10000m.:thumbup: Prend ton temps mais fait ca vite :cold:... LG34''21:9 Asus 23''monitors Intel i7-4590 EVGA 1070 Superclocked Gskills 4x4G RAM Fatal1ty AsRock Z97 killer motherboard in a HAF black box with 4 CH products plug in and logitech G510, F310, M510 and M570 plus trackIR 5! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Sounds like you used the burner Northman? Also OP should be aware that angle of attack in also important. It is possible to fly with high angle of attack which slows you down a lot and prevents you from accelerating to a higher speed where you can lower your angle of attack. There is some feedback. Faster you go less angle of AOA you need, which enables you to go faster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfredson007 Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 I try exactly what i write and from 0 kph on the track to 10000m in the air took me 2min40sec. takeoff, reach 1000kph and climb at 30 degree to 10000m.:thumbup: I tried this. Initially it went well, i did climb 100+ meters per second, for 3 kilometers or so, but then soon after things start to go wrong, i am losing speed, i am forced to lower the nose, i am already too slow... the climb rate starts rapidly to go down.... Here's the .TRK file. Now, in this i tried the method mentioned by the quoted fella, but the end result is very similar even if itry to keep 870 TAS all the way. I am doing something wrong, or my plane is not well configured?climbtrk.trk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJohnxx Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Hi, Here's the .TRK file. Now, in this i tried the method mentioned by the quoted fella, but the end result is very similar even if itry to keep 870 TAS all the way. I had a quick look at your track file and it is quit easy what is going on. The problem is that you keep a constant TAS, which is why you run out off airspeed. I am not sure why you have been told to hold a constant TAS but, that's not the thing you want to do. But I can see the problem is down a bit deeper in the understanding of IAS (Indicated Air Speed) and TAS (True Air Speed), so let me explain. The air speed indicator shows IAS. The combined true airspeed and Mach indicator shows TAS and Mach. At sea level IAS and TAS is the same thing. 100km/h IAS are the same as 100km/h TAS. However, if you start to climb, the air will get less dense. The way how the air speed indicator works this denser air will result in a wrong (too small) value being shown. This means at a higher altitude 100km/h IAS will give you 140km/h TAS. If you climb further it increases further. As said, this is an effect off the air being less dense. However, the less dense air not only has an effect on your speed indicator but also on your aircraft itself. This means at a constant IAS the aircraft always produces the same amount of lift. This is not depended on altitude. In the MiG-21 you will be stalling at speeds lower 300km/h IAS, not depended if you are at 0m or 10000m. This now means, if you keep a TAS of 870km/h throughout the climb you may initially have an IAS of 870km/h (at sea level) but the higher you get, the slower your aircraft will become, as the IAS reduces. At 10.000m 870km/h TAS are only about 534km/h IAS, leading to the high AoA situation you are experiencing. At 15.000m 870km/h TAS are only about 371km/h IAS, close to a stall. Just to sum this up: There is no reason to look at your TAS indicator for doing anything performance related. The only reason it is there, to figure out you are actually moving through the surrounding air, and by subtracting the wind speed, how fast you move over the ground. Aircraft performance and limits are mainly depended on the indicated airspeed. The only expection to that is when you are flying fast, then the Mach indicator comes into play. EDIT: BTW: After take-off and retracting the gear put your gear lever into the "neutral" position to prevent loss of pneumatic air, else you might not have enough air left to fire the braking chute or use the wheel brakes on landing. EDIT2: Try to climb at around 900km/h IAS. That should give you a reasonable climb rate up to cruise level. Edited February 16, 2015 by xxJohnxx 1 Check out my YouTube: xxJohnxx Intel i7 6800k watercooled | ASUS Rampage V Edition 10 | 32 GB RAM | Asus GTX1080 watercooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfredson007 Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 EDIT2: Try to climb at around 900km/h IAS. That should give you a reasonable climb rate up to cruise level. Hi, thanks for your answer. I must say i am very familiar what TAS/IAS etc is. I have flown small civ aircrafts in FSX for few thousand ours... i am new to DCS and jets, especially supersonic. In my track,i do not try to keep constant IAS nor TAS, i am trying to climb in 30 degreeish angle as the one who posted before me that i quoted. I've tried to use constant TAS, same result. I've tried to fly by feel, same result. It goes well, all the sudden the plane feels as it has lost most of its power or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I had a quick look at your track file and it is quit easy what is going on. The problem is that you keep a constant TAS, which is why you run out off airspeed. I am not sure why you have been told to hold a constant TAS but, that's not the thing you want to do. The pilot's operating instructions for the real MiG-21bis instruct pilots to maintain 870kmh TAS for best climb performance to 10,000 meters. It struck me as odd, too, but I'm not one to quibble with the manuals. Edit: see this thread for exhaustive discussion. Black Shark, Harrier, and Hornet pilot Many Words - Serial Fiction | Ka-50 Employment Guide | Ka-50 Avionics Cheat Sheet | Multiplayer Shooting Range Mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJohnxx Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 In my track,i do not try to keep constant IAS nor TAS, i am trying to climb in 30 degreeish angle as the one who posted before me that i quoted. I've tried to use constant TAS, same result. I've tried to fly by feel, same result. It goes well, all the sudden the plane feels as it has lost most of its power or something. Hmm, okay. Well, there is some reduction in thrust with increased altitude, maybe not as dramatic as you describe it though. Can you try to hold a fixed IAS of 800-900km/h though? Because at least too me, it looks like it is decaying quit rapidly. Also worth mentioning, if you are about too pass Mach 1 it might be worth too either level out briefly or put it into afterburner for a couple of seconds, as the sound barrier adds some additional drag to the aircraft, which you might not be able to overcome if in too steep of a climb. Check out my YouTube: xxJohnxx Intel i7 6800k watercooled | ASUS Rampage V Edition 10 | 32 GB RAM | Asus GTX1080 watercooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effte Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) The climb is at constant TAS up to 10,000 as that is the way the MiG is supposed to be climbed, as per the flight operating instructions. Should be read before offering advice, I think. Works great, by the way. Most other aircraft (without a TAS clock) have an optimum climb schedule with decreasing IAS with increasing altitude. There's probably a connection there... Edit: Well, third man in... :) For an intercept profile with full reheat, the manual specifies 950 km/h TAS. You'll be nibbling on the transonic region by the time you reach the acceleration altitude. Edited February 16, 2015 by effte ----- Introduction to UTM/MGRS - Trying to get your head around what trim is, how it works and how to use it? - DCS helos vs the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJohnxx Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) In my track,i do not try to keep constant IAS nor TAS, i am trying to climb in 30 degreeish angle as the one who posted before me that i quoted. I've tried to use constant TAS, same result. I've tried to fly by feel, same result. It goes well, all the sudden the plane feels as it has lost most of its power or something. Just another thing though: You know that in the track you provided, it took you roughly 2 minutes and 15 seconds to climb from 0 to 10.000 meters? That is quit respectable climb performance if you ask me... The pilot's operating instructions for the real MiG-21bis instruct pilots to maintain 870kmh TAS for best climb performance to 10,000 meters. It struck me as odd, too, but I'm not one to quibble with the manuals. Edit: see this thread for exhaustive discussion. That is interesting... Thanks for the link. Keeping the constant TAS of around 870km/h even seems to work out, altough AoA is quit high before levelling out. EDIT: I was normally using the in the included manual suggested procedure of climbing at 600km/h, that's why it seemed so odd. Keeping a constant TAS at least prevents you from going super-sonic, while you end up climbing in a high AoA flight attitude. Not sure why that is preferable, but if the real manual says so... Edited February 16, 2015 by xxJohnxx Check out my YouTube: xxJohnxx Intel i7 6800k watercooled | ASUS Rampage V Edition 10 | 32 GB RAM | Asus GTX1080 watercooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboHog Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Please note that it requires 7 minutes to reach 10000 m instead of 3 With missiles and a fuel tank it even takes 10. See post #10 PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS THREAD (It is mentioned multiple times here) IS BASED ON AN OUTDATED FM. ALL ISSUES POINTED OUT THERE HAVE BEEN RESOLVED. 'Frett' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJohnxx Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Please note that it requires 7 minutes to reach 10000 m instead of 3 Yes, I read that. Just in the track Alfredson provided in post #15 it took him 2 minutes and 15 seconds to climb from take-off to 10.000m. That is with full burner. Check out my YouTube: xxJohnxx Intel i7 6800k watercooled | ASUS Rampage V Edition 10 | 32 GB RAM | Asus GTX1080 watercooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JorgeIII Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Procedure for climbing for max speed and altitude from Mig-21 bis real manual: AKA TANGO-117. DCS Modules: ALL. I7 6700k @ 4.9 GHz / 32 GB DDR4 @ 3.2 GHz / 950 Pro m.2 + 4xSSDs / Gigabyte 1080TI 11 GB OC / 48" 4K Curved Samsung TV / TM Warthog Hotas / TM TPR rudder pedals / Track IR. Private pilot and sailplane pilot in RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJohnxx Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Jorge, That what you are posting is correct, but I guess it is also worth to provide this additionally to what you provided: This is from page 153 of that pdf and is used for actual combat intercepts instead of max speed or max altitude flights. However, it again proofs the point of climbing at TAS. Strange to me, but it probably provides the best distance/time results for intercept. Check out my YouTube: xxJohnxx Intel i7 6800k watercooled | ASUS Rampage V Edition 10 | 32 GB RAM | Asus GTX1080 watercooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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