Comments from an Eagle pilot

I like that quote of Polish MiG-29 Pilot who said that once you pull a few G's and make an aircraft make high AoA it noses down very quickly if you push on the stick... this reminds me of seing a few video's of MiG-29's doing that exact same thing when they do a manouvre close to a Cobra (not as much of high AoA) and they recover from it very quickly... where as I try doing this with empty loaded MiG-29A in LockOn... the plane realy does get "stuck" on this AoA (as the Polish MiG-29 Pilot says) for a while... then slowly recovers... anyway, this thing he said really cought my eye and makes me wonder if this is not done corretly for the MiG-29, or maybe for all aircraft???

The SFM models 'normal flight' meaning a certain amount of AoA, etc, well - but (as it typical to a lot of FMs) extreme conditions - like very high AoA, very high or very slow speeds, etc, are not modeled so well.

Also I don't think G-lock or black-outs should be modeled according to some pilots statements that they can do 8G's no problem or so because, I think, not all pilots actually can do this... I recall watching a video of F-16 pilot going a 9G sustained 360deg turn (or as close to 9G's because the aircraft will lose speed in that turn quite quickly and lose abolity to sustain 9G's) and the comentator said not all pilots can do this kind of turn... and that it's a very hard thing do to.. very demanding and straining on the pilot.

Right, not all pilots. Combat pilots who aretrained in dogfighting can and will. If you can't you're outta there. Fly a bomber or a recce plane. Seriously.

Besides which, you shouldn't model G'Loc according to some pilot's statements that he CANNOT do 8G ;) Look at that ppt I linked to.

Trained, practiced pilot - 8G REST TOLERANCE ... meaning he can sustain 8G for a time WITHOUT straining (but he must wear G-suit). With straining you can sustain more, and longer.

I seriously doubt every pilot can do this.. so why all of us no real life pilot people should be given the ability to do this as if we are all Superman? or wait... Superpilot :D

And those who can't, don't get to fly fighter jets. It is -that- simple.

Yeah, didn't his buddy, Gib tell that Marine Corps Captain that Harry had 20 hours in them?

No I think it was more along the line of "its like riding a bicycle!!"

Also makes me think that this G-lock modelling shouldn't be same for all aircraft because, for example, in F-16 the seat is inclined back to make pilot sustain high G's easier, so naturally for same pilot pulling G's in F-16 should be easier then say in F-15?

Reclining the seat a'la F-16 only give you an extra 0.5-0.75g increase in tolerance, so don't think that's the reason why lawn dart drivers have better g-tolerance.

G-tolerance is a function of three things:

1) TRAINING- a proper anti-g straining maneuver (AGSM) is critical to allow you to sustain gs. Getting your strain on before the g's become large is critical to sustaining a high-g maneuver. THE AGSM GIVES YOU AN EXTRA 3.5G TOLERANCE! It's the critical thing. Training also gets you used to doing Gs. If you are constantly exposed to high-G environments, you will become tolerant to Gs. AND as Ghost has said as a fighter pilot, YOU KNOW WHEN YOU'RE GONNA PULL THE G'S! So, you'll be prepared by getting on your strain. Finally, training is also lifting weights and making yourself anaerobically fit. Big muscles can move the blood back to the heart and head so you won't GLOC. You must also have some aerobic fitness, which gives you the stamina to keep on your AGSM for a long fight. This is so important, that you will be washed out of your FTU course if you do the funky chicken in the centrifuge too many times. EVERYBODY who flys a jet that is capable of rapid onset Gs (F-15, F-16, T-38, F-22, etc.) goes to the centrifuge to test their G-tolerance and perfect their AGSM!

2) Equipment - Combat Edge helps. The fast pants only give an extra 1G of tolerance. Combat edge ups that to 1.5-2. This includes pressure breathing, which helps your AGSM. The F-16s seat recline would also be in this category.

3) Physical fitness - yeah, I know I already mentioned this in training, but it's also a well-hydrated person who's not fatigued. The more you're fatigued or dehydrated, the harder it will be to maintain a good AGSM and the stamina to keep the fight going. If you have a cold, got the runs, are puking up a gut because you tied one one (on the piss for you Brits), then you'll be a quart low on your blood volume and it'll be harder to keep ahead of the Gs.

One other thing. In practice, and in combat - we do a G-awareness exercise. We pull a 4, then 5.5 G turn. The tapes are reviewed for our straining maneuver, and the number of Gs we pulled. In IFF if you don't get a MINIMUM of 4 gs on the first and a MINIMUM of 5.5 on the second, you can fail the sortie. The benefit of this G-awareness maneuver is that it give you a feel for the Gs and secondly, it prepares your body to pull high gs. (For those medically inclined, it prepares your carotid bodies - the blood pressure sensing apparatus in your body to respond rapidly to a fall in blood pressure to the head). This can give you another 1G of tolerance.

So, lets add the numbers. A FIGHTER PILOT has a nominal resting (no straining no g-suit) tolerance of about 4.5Gs. A good AGSM increases this to 8G (+3.5G), Add a g-suit (+1G) 9G. THAT'S WITHOUT COMBAT EDGE. Add that (+0.5G) and recline the seat and we have 10Gs.

So yes, Ghost is absolutely on track. With realistic Gs on LOMAC, you're a mere mortal, not a true fighter pilot. Go back to shuffling papers because your're losing in in an elevator going up. :doh:

 

So yes, Ghost is absolutely on track. With realistic Gs on LOMAC, you're a mere mortal, not a true fighter pilot. Go back to shuffling papers because your're losing in in an elevator going up. :doh:

For everyhing else, there's master card :D

...where someone of the same name...

Not someone of the same name, someone posting from the same ubi account.

Rhen, some folks here probably don't know who you are. Maybe you should re-introduce yourself.

Cuz the Governator flew Harriers in that secret government thingie. The Omega something or whatever.

IRL the Governator used to drive tanks and he was quite fast, never mind the people sitting on the top as they usually wind up walking.:megalol:

The g-model for a pilot is THE SAME for all planes. The REALISTIC mode of g-model (see Difficulty settings) was tuned after long investigations amongst the MiG and Su actual pilots and several aero-medical reports was taken in account, too.

Only for information.

The basic parameters of g-lock are the sustained value of g in conjunction with dg/dt derivative. If you smoothly achieve 6.5 g you can bear it for a long time. 5 g has more longer time or maybe (I don't remember exactly) to eternity.

Thats interesting we had a similar discussion about this on the FO forums. I'll have to take a closer look at the g and apply load gradually and see this in action.

http://fighterops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6724

Yeah. Too bad you didn't look at that before making your caustic post Dusty.

You are right, I was wrong. Wish I had seen that before posting that.

Dusty, which position are you taking in this matter? I'm confused because two of your posts here contradict each other. Not that it matters because many of us are used to that from you, but I'd like clarification if that's possible.

Well I posted my disappointment because the dude was being attacked and called an asshole without basis. It appears I have found reason to doubt him. I wish I had put 2 and 2 together before I posted the first post. My bad!

Lemme get this straight...

One of our biggest hopes for this game/genre is to have relative input from an actual Pilot/Driver who has the time & pity to answer our questions, correct ? (even while we understand that that information He/She gives must be in generalities at times)

Yet given the opportunity to do so, this is what happens ? This thread is your contribution to that endeavor ?

If he is/was a Eagle Driver why would he come into this cluster f*ck of a forum flak fest, all his training and common sense would tell him to blow it and all the wannabes off.

If he wasn’t/isn’t, same thing in the end, he ain’t gonna show, there for you will never have had the real opportunity to weasel out his bullsh*t here, and make sport of him. Many of the threads here are pitiful, at least this would have been entertaining or informative.

Didn’t any of you big “Birds of Prey” ever hunt or trap when you were a kid ? Play poker as an adult ?

I hope I get the time to play BS when it drops (I‘ve played EECH since it was released) , ‘cause it’s obvious that you Mugs cannot lay in wait for prey.

I am reminded why many of our best contributors are rarely seen poking their head up in here thou.

P.S.

Dusty the only thing you did wrong was show your cards before they were all dealt.

Knowing what I knew at the time, I was right in what I said, which mirrors somewhat what you said. People were making baseless attacks. But then after further "investigation" I will say that I should have looked into it more carefully. When I may be wrong, I may be wrong. No harm in admitting that.

Well in defense of those I lambasted, possibly prematurely, the community has been burned too many times by people claiming to be pilots and turning out to be nothing. I think it puts people on the defensive. But I also think that a large percentage are ready to just jump down someones throat when they perceive that someone might be attacking their favorite sim.

All in all, I have question if he is the real thing, but you know what? Who am I? I am just another virtual wannabe who's opinion isn't worth the paper I could write it on. I just don't like people claiming to be something they are not.

Didn’t any of you big “Birds of Prey” ever hunt or trap when you were a kid ? Play poker as an adult ?

It's natural for people to go for cheap shots when down and out. Everyone does it. The fact that this did happen here doesn't mean people got more obtuse than they were a week ago.

So, Wikipedia isn't exactly a valid source of information either - but I bet everyone here has used it a billion times. The fact that the F-15 is underpowered isn't any less true coming out of a 40 year-old American whiner who can't spell than from McDonnell Douglas - facts are objective.

Is it just me or the F-15 from ubi forum pilot hasn't posted once in this 15 page long thread?

So we are stomping on a guy that hasn't been here even once and arguing about nothing whatsoever?! Nice people - who needs pilots or avio-medical doctors or anyone else, as long as we are together :clap_2:

Sorry, I didn't mention that the g-effect is cumulative, i.e. if you overdose once you have to rest for a while before your g-tolerance recovers fully. I think it's the main cause of g-problems for virtual pilots.

Hi Yo-Yo, my understanding from what I was told is that this is reasonable if the pilot is flying his 3rd sortie of the day (ie. he is tired) but not for his 1st sortie, in the same 5 min of dogfighting.

Please re-examine this. It is unreasonable for me to be defending at 5.5g, try a guns jink up to 7G and black out, all because I pulled 9G for the lead-turn. It is /absolutely/ unreasonable. Lastly, my stick spikes, so my 7G might turn to 9G, if only for 1/10th of a second, and I black out. This again, does not respect the 6sec buffer at the very least; it is not reasonable for a virtual pilot to have to deal with this.

remind me not to show my face around if I get a fighter track....

Sorry, I didn't mention that the g-effect is cumulative, i.e. if you overdose once you have to rest for a while before your g-tolerance recovers fully. I think it's the main cause of g-problems for virtual pilots.

Yes, that's the way it works if you go past the point of visual disturbance (grey-out to blackout) to GLOC. It's also the way it works if you are pulling multiple sets of high-g maneuvering and you end up fatigued. The point being that it's difficult to get to this position if you're in shape and used to flying high-g sorties. If you take a break for a while, you need to bring your g-tolerance back up to speed.

Let's define some terms:

GLOC - G-induced loss of consciousness - pretty self-explanatory. You lose consciousness because of 2 things:

1) You've ignored visual symptoms of impending GLOC, or if you yanked hard on the stick (you've bypassed these warning symptoms) and have effectively prevented your heart from pumping oxygen rich blood to your cranium.

2) You've used up your 5-6 second of reserve oxygen stored in your blood during this time.

Blackout - Loss of vision but able to continue to maneuver the aircraft and think. This is the FINAL warning before the nap.

Grayout - Before blackout your vision tunnels and color saturation diminishes. This is the point that if you've not been doing an AGSM, you BETTER get on it or improve the strain, because it's not working - either that or come off the g's, then get on the strain.

Recovery from GLOC - If you've gone to the point of GLOC, you AREN'T controlling the aircraft and by definintion you aren't thinking anymore. You're UNCONSCIOUS. The length of this period is variable, but is on average 12-16 seconds, but can be as short as 5 seconds and as long as 30. Since you're unconscious, you're no longer yanking back on the stick for all you're worth, so as the G's begin to decrease, the blood flows back to your cerebrum and you begin to wake up (after the 12-16 second average time, which is a LONG time to be in burner with the aircraft flying itself somewhere). Then you begin to regain some semblance of thought, but are still confused. This period of time can last another 12 seconds, on average, but can range shorter or much longer. During this time, you are also as good as unconscious, because you can't respond appropriately to your wingman, or bitching betty telling you to PULL UP!! So you're effectively incapacitated for as short as 8 seconds to as long as 80 seconds, waiting to fly your jet again after GLOC (not blackout or grayout).

This isn't the end of it. After you're done letting the aircraft fly itself, you're still not fully up to speed. You're still impaired, almost as much as having a few shots at the bar. If you attempt to continue the fight after this, which might, nevertheless be required by the tactical situation, you better watch out for a future GLOC, which would be easier to encounter, as well as diminished mental acuity in making sound judgements required by the tactical engagement.

Here's the sequence, if done right:

You're coming to the merge, and have a plan of action (which of course requires you to G your brains out). Depending upon how hard you pull on the stick you begin your AGSM as you're pulling on the stick. The fast pants begin to inflate, and combat edge stuffs your mask with pressurized air. You tilt your head back and up, but you're straining maneuver is good , so you don't even see any gray in your peripheral vision. You come off the G's to get the pipper on the other guy and it's a kill.

Here's the sequence, if done wrong:

You're coming to the merge, and gonna pull hard into him. You yank hard on the stick to get inside his turn circle. You're a G-god because you're barely even straining at 8 gs and notice NO visual effects. The bandit pulls hard into you and you've got to continue the 8g turn through 145 degrees. Unfortunately that's about 6 seconds and you've used up your oxygen reserve. The next thing you know the water's trying to merge with you in a beak to beak pass at over 800knots as you notice the altimeter winding through 10,000ft. You yank hard on the stick (fortunately you're flying an F-15 instead of an F-16) and you pull 15 gs to level the jet about 800ft above the water. BAH, you say? It happened IRL to a guy flying Eagles out of Elmendorf. That Eagle saved his life and is now on a stick outside the gate.

Not someone of the same name, someone posting from the same ubi account.

 

Rhen, some folks here probably don't know who you are. Maybe you should re-introduce yourself.

Eh, why bother. :smilewink:

What about if we stay in a relatively protracted high-g engagement of between 2-5min? Not a constant 9G, but often above 4 or 5. These happen often in LO.

No it's not me! LOL :pilotfly: I'm copy/pasting his original comments about the performance of Lock-On's F-15 here.

 

Quoting Noidskie...

 

"How they have misrepresented and crippled the American aircraft in this game. I was walking thru CompUSA the other day with my son and he spots this game, and asks for it. I am currently on active flight duty with the Oregon Air Guard and Fly the F-15c, and since that was one of the planes represented in this game I thought great, he likes all things Eagle this would be a perfect title for him. We get it home and installed, and all I can say is BOY! What a joke! The graphics and gameplay were fine, and although I don't expect any realism from the game in regards to Avionics, I do expect an ACCURATE representation of the capabilities of the aircraft in question. The Eagle in the game is NO WHERE near accurately represented. It has trouble doing Mach speeds, will not gate climb or even, perform basic maneuvers without stalling or going into a flat spin. At first I thought that since this was a game for kids they just "Dummed" down all of the planes to make them easy for non pilots to fly, but low and behold I flew one of the Russian jets(SU-27) and it handled the way (I would assume have never flown one)it should and out performed the F-15 in the way an F-16 would outperform a Cessna. The A-10 was no better. Now 2 things to note, #1 I realize this title is no longer in production so this is a mute point, and #2 that it was created by a Russian game developer so they probably centered the game on there aircraft. I just wish they would not present it as an "Aircombat" game as really what it is, is a game that was designed to let you fly and enjoy the Russian jets and let you use American aircraft as the "Fish" in the barrel for you to shoot. For all of you out there would like to simulate more closely what the American aircraft can really do I would recommend Janes Strike Eagle(another dead title)or Falcon 4.0 (Yet another dead title) as they both represent the American jets in the capacity at which they can perform rather than just being targets for another aircraft".

 

To see the entire thread go here... http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/38610606/m/1661097035/p/1

 

 

I'm posting this in hopes of bringing Noidskie here for the ED developers to engage and perhaps, improve Lock On. Who knows...I'd think they'd like to talk to a real Eagle driver who wouldn't? :)

I wonder what time our real F-15C fighter on the famous “Speed record thread” would get in a real F-15C in RL?

Speed record thread: from Razdolnoye to Sukhumi or vice versa: (FC 1.12a version)

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=20125&highlight=speed+record

Both planes were speeding at about Mach 2.5+ at high alt and with clean configuration in the end!

In my opinion this test is proof that the F-15C is not porked like our F-15C pilot has insinuated.

(Both fighter planes showing almost equal performance)

Top speed is not proof. How fast you get to it, and at what altitude, is.

Top speed is not proof. How fast you get to it, and at what altitude, is.

He said: “It has trouble doing Mach speeds” ;)

If the F-15C was porked and the Su-27 was OK like he said

then something was not correct because both planes perform about equal in Lomac/FC!