Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing

As I said in my original post .... no deck landings for us, no requirement for accurate precise hook to deck angles etc etc etc .... hell we even had the audacity to flare the aircraft :) .... and just like every aircraft in our inventory we flew it the same way in terms of control down final.

The guys landing on the boat have a very special technique for a very special circumstance.... and a very special skill set that aviators everywhere respect and admire.

As I said in my original post .... no deck landings for us, no requirement for accurate precise hook to deck angles etc etc etc .... hell we even had the audacity to flare the aircraft :) .... and just like every aircraft in our inventory we flew it the same way in terms of control down final.

 

The guys landing on the boat have a very special technique for a very special circumstance.... and a very special skill set that aviators everywhere respect and admire.

Spoken like a true officer and a gentleman. :thumbup:

When you dirty up on speed that's literally all there is to it. When you break to downwind you put the gear and flaps out, slow to on speed AOA (NOT an airspeed, we calculate a rough airspeed that on speed AOA should be around with level wings). This on speed AOA is calculated by the engineerds to be the optimal hook point for the ship. From the 180 you roll in, maintain your VSI targets to meet your checkpoint altitudes on the approach turn while maintaining on speed. Rolling into the groove you're still on speed, center to little high ball, and you're working the throttle from there. You literally will not have to move the stick forward or aft at all, mainly just left and right to maintain lineup. Throttle will move around (shouldn't be the huge power corrections you see on some videos) to maintain the ball.

 

 

 

 

No, it's done with power. In fact, if you try to waveoff at the ramp and rotate the aircraft nose up you'll have an in-flight engagement or hook slap, both of which would be a bad day because your hook has hit/caught something while your aircraft isn't close to touching down. VV at the boat is purely a trend indicator and used in conjunction with the E bracket and lineup to maintain AOA, you can't set it on a spot on the runway like you can on land because the boat is moving.

 

All altitude changes in the pattern are done with power, not pitch. Pitch will follow power automatically when trimmed for an AOA/Airspeed, no user input required 90% of the time. There's the off chance you need to influence the nose a little after hitting a bump or something, but even then, the inputs are not even a quarter of what you do in non-carrier birds.

 

 

 

Not only is our landing strip moving, but it's also much smaller than your average runway. Pictured is a runway from a hornet base. Outlined is the carrier box (same dimensions as the boat) with the landing area boxed inside it.

 

Ah I see another real ball-flyer lurking in this thread. Well said btw.

After flying various military and civil planes for decades I always admire the few aviators who are able to reliable land a jet during night time in bad weather on a pitching and rolling deck. Extremely impressive!

Well.. Loving this..

I'm just going to put my take. [conserning G/A aircraft]

When you're slow and dirty on an approuch from Abeam the numbers, through base and final. You're on a constant decent. I have always controlled airspeed with the stick. How ever This is a bit of a misleading thing to say.. We are talking about +/- 2-5 knots of airspeed. The point is if you're way fast and trying to slow by just using the stick well of course you're going to climb pulling the stick back. If you're slow i.e. going to stall.. Of course you're not just going to push the stick forward with out adding power. In course adjustment you do not adjust one with out the other. How ever in fine/very fine adjustments you can adjust one with out the other.. At least I've been able to do so.

Now, those saying that during a go-around in a Cessna you want to "rotate" the nose up is going to get someone KILLED! I have NEVER been in a Cessna when adding full power on a go-around or Touch-and-go and not had to push forward on the yoke. The reason for this is simple. you're inducing a-lot of prop-wash over the horizontal stabilizer coupled with a good amount of pitch up trim causing the nose to rapidly rise and an imminent stall to follow if pitch down isn't applied to the yoke..

in a LATE decision to go-around you might very well still "LAND" before you start to climb.. Trying to STOP this by raising the nose will just stall the aircraft!

If you do not believe me go for a discovery flight at a local flight school.. Ask them to take you through slow flight and then into full power exit[simulated go-around]

Now, those saying that during a go-around in a Cessna you want to "rotate" the nose up is going to get someone KILLED! I have NEVER been in a Cessna when adding full power on a go-around or Touch-and-go and not had to push forward on the yoke. The reason for this is simple. you're inducing a-lot of prop-wash over the horizontal stabilizer coupled with a good amount of pitch up trim causing the nose to rapidly rise and an imminent stall to follow if pitch down isn't applied to the yoke..

You should really read the previous post more carefully as you are mixing up yoke and plane movement.

I severly doubt that you want to keep the pitch attitude during the go around identical to the approach attitude, or even worse 'pitch down'.

If the plane wants to pitch up and you counter the (excessive) pitch up moment with forward yoke pressure, the nose should still rotate in a nose up direction for the go around.

If only the local rental Cessnas had enough shove to just power out of an approach...

 

One of the most counterintuitive things in private pilot training is the idea that you have to push the nose down as you add power when going around.

You do want to rotate the aircraft nose up during a go around and I certainly don't consider active pitch control counterintuitive.

You should really read the previous post more carefully as you are mixing up yoke and plane movement.

 

I severly doubt that you want to keep the pitch attitude during the go around identical to the approach attitude, or even worse 'pitch down'.

 

If the plane wants to pitch up and you counter the (excessive) pitch up moment with forward yoke pressure, the nose should still rotate in a nose up direction for the go around.

Well, lets see here.. One person stated it's counter intuitive to have to push the nose down when going around.

Then you state right afterwards that you DO want to rotate the nose up..

Your Statement is in the minds of those who have never done a go around is that you are to PULL back on the stick commanding nose up. This will get them KILLED! When you apply full throttle that action alone causes the plane to pitch up automatically. If you're also already at High AOA and slow you may even have to push the NOSE DOWN lower then before you started to GO-Around to prevent a stall even though you're at full throttle.

Well, lets see here.. One person stated it's counter intuitive to have to push the nose down when going around.

 

Then you state right afterwards that you DO want to rotate the nose up..

 

Your Statement is in the minds of those who have never done a go around is that you are to PULL back on the stick commanding nose up. This will get them KILLED! When you apply full throttle that action alone causes the plane to pitch up automatically. If you're also already at High AOA and slow you may even have to push the NOSE DOWN lower then before you started to GO-Around to prevent a stall even though you're at full throttle.

Pitch angle, stick position and control force are three different things. bbrz said you need to rotate the nose up (pitch up) which is true, but did not say anything about stick position or whether you need to apply force (in either direction).

The modern day Hornet airfield landing: trim angle shows up in the hud. Trim to 8.1 AoA and put the velocity vector on the threshold (or on the horizon on down wind). If the E bracket isn't centred, you'll have to hold a control force. Hold the VV on the threshold, control the AoA with the throttle. Drive it into the runway like a carrier OR if you're too heavy, throw some dinosaurs on the fire at the end to "flare" the landing. Easy :smilewink:

AOA is controlled by trim/longitudinal stick movement, altitude is controlled by the throttle. Should also specify the VV should be 3* down to avoid any over-stress or flat approaches.

Anyway, can we get back on topic? Nobody comes here to learn about a 172 and there's no need to throw around how much time you have in one, especially with it being so irrelevant to the thread and hornet.

That's why when the NATOPS manual said about pitch trim in PA mode, it always said something like "set pitch trim to xxx AOA", since pitch trim setting (in PA mode) is measured in AOA, and can be set between 4 and 12 deg. You can also set this in the BIT MI page, according to previous reddit F/A-18A++ & C pilot AMA.

I don't know how the FCS in the F-18 works but with aircraft like F-16 and F-15 (to a lesser extent) you control altitude with stick and airspeed with throttle on the approach. In an F-16, you set the flight path marker where you want it and it auto-trims to keep the flight path where you set it. This means that ideally if you setup a perfect approach on a 2.5-3 degree wire and go full idle or full AB you'll just slow to stall or speed up but stay on that 3 degrees. That's how I understand it from the F-16 pilots I've talked to. With the F-15 there is the mechanical pitch trim compensator (PTC) plus digital CAS that makes it so you trim for a certain G, not AoA like traditional aircraft. It's not perfect but once you set 1G trim after takeoff (TO trim sets you slightly above 1G) then you only need a click or two of trim here and there to keep a 1G straight and level flight. You fly your approach by setting the flight path marker on threshold and keeping it there with your stick while throttle modulating for your AoA (20-22 units.)

So in essence the way to fly your approach is aircraft dependent. Flying in a cessna 172, you're trim sets your AoA so it makes sense to use the yoke + trim to set airspeed (it sets AoA) and using the throttle for altitude. Flying a jet with digital flight controls, the trim might not work the same way so it is opposite. Either way, the technique of "just fly it" works when you have enough experience to not think about it anymore.

Are you sure about the F-16?

Who cares about the F16 and F15, completly diff. aircraft, plz stay on topic.

Are you sure about the F-16?

Pretty sure. Not that the flight path marker is glued to the point on the ground, but if you set it 3 degrees nose low it should stay there.

Who cares about the F16 and F15, completly diff. aircraft, plz stay on topic.

They aren't that different, they still US fighters made with western flight control systems. Just pointing out how they land and that I imagine the F-18 is similar. I could be wrong, just stating my opinions on how you're going to land the F-18.

Pretty sure. Not that the flight path marker is glued to the point on the ground, but if you set it 3 degrees nose low it should stay there.

From T.O.1F-16-1, both technique can be used. The FLCS of F-16 uses pitch rate command blended with AOA feedback in Take-off and Landing Gains, and will command pitch down when your AOA is above 10 deg. So when you trim for zero pitch rate at 13 deg AOA, an increase/decrease in speed will actually have the aircraft pitch up/down, then you can fly the technique from the RL manual:

Another technique is to trim for 13 degrees AOA and to fly that airspeed throughout the final approach. The throttle is used primarily to control glidepath, and the stick controls airspeed through control of AOA and direction through bank angle. This type of approach primarily allows better control of touchdown point and more efficient energy dissipation; however, since the aircraft is already at 13 degrees AOA, the flare is more difficult, and care must be exercised to avoid scraping the speedbrakes or landing firm. The aircraft floats approximately 500-700 feet from flare initiation to touchdown.

BTW we have RL USN F18 pilot in this thread so you don't have to imagine how it lands.

From T.O.1F-16-1, both technique can be used. The FLCS of F-16 uses pitch rate command blended with AOA feedback in Take-off and Landing Gains, and will command pitch down when your AOA is above 10 deg. So when you trim for zero pitch rate at 13 deg AOA, an increase/decrease in speed will actually have the aircraft pitch up/down, then you can fly the technique from the RL manual:

 

 

 

BTW we have RL USN F18 pilot in this thread so you don't have to imagine how it lands.

F-16 flares, F-18 doesnt usually. How is this blowing soo many minds. F-18 FCS set to 8.1 baam done, throttle for g/s, pitch for on speed. done.

F-16 flares, F-18 doesnt usually. How is this blowing soo many minds.

But for the F/A-18 pilots who aren't too lazy to flare, the NFM includes the distance for a flared landing in the landing distance tables ;)

But for the F/A-18 pilots who aren't too lazy to flare, the NFM includes the distance for a flared landing in the landing distance tables ;)

IIRC you can land with a higher gross weight with a flared landing too.

No, the flight path marker moves with the flight path. it's never "glued" to anything. I'm a huge lurker on these forums and I'm super excited to see the F18 and F14 coming. I've got a little input on this thread, I've been flying commercial aircraft since 1995, and I've flown 19. 37, and 50 seat turboprops. 50,70, and 90 seat RJ's, and for the last 13 years 122,143, and 175 seat (HUD equipped)Boeing products. (both left and right seat in all of the above). When I was learning how to fly my private pilot instructor was a former A-6 Intruder bomber, navigator. So I learned the Navy way of Pitch for Airspeed and Power for Altitude. The next instructor I had was a pure civilian and taught the Airforce way which is the inverse. In the landing on runways world, either method works. I'm sure in the pitching, rolling and continually moving (forward and right) away from you runway of the carrier world the Navy figured out that their way works best. I guess the last thing I'll add is that Newton is always in play, Regardless of which method you use, a change in power will require a change in pitch, and so will the inverse.

They aren't that different, they still US fighters made with western flight control systems. Just pointing out how they land and that I imagine the F-18 is similar. I could be wrong, just stating my opinions on how you're going to land the F-18.

You don't need an opinion on the topic, you have multiple posters that have hornet time in the thread, as well as others that have flown tailhook aircraft as well, their way is the best way. If you don't believe it now, just act like you do and over time you will understand why it's done the way it is.

No, the flight path marker moves with the flight path. it's never "glued" to anything. I'm a huge lurker on these forums and I'm super excited to see the F18 and F14 coming. I've got a little input on this thread, I've been flying commercial aircraft since 1995, and I've flown 19. 37, and 50 seat turboprops. 50,70, and 90 seat RJ's, and for the last 13 years 122,143, and 175 seat (HUD equipped)Boeing products. (both left and right seat in all of the above). When I was learning how to fly my private pilot instructor was a former A-6 Intruder bomber, navigator. So I learned the Navy way of Pitch for Airspeed and Power for Altitude. The next instructor I had was a pure civilian and taught the Airforce way which is the inverse. In the landing on runways world, either method works. I'm sure in the pitching, rolling and continually moving (forward and right) away from you runway of the carrier world the Navy figured out that their way works best. I guess the last thing I'll add is that Newton is always in play, Regardless of which method you use, a change in power will require a change in pitch, and so will the inverse.

Correct, pitch and power work together, however it's imperative that tailhook aircraft land at the correct on-speed AOA as it sets the correct hook point on the aircraft, as well as maintains a consistent hook-to-eye across the platform. The ball is incredibly sensitive so if you come a little fast at the same height over the deck as an on-speed approach, the fast aircraft will see a low ball leading to an addition in power for a bolter, or a higher chance of a hook skip with the hook being higher off the ground than normal. This is why we trim an airspeed and use power for altitude- higher boarding rates.

Really interesting stuff, thanks ttaylor. I hope the DCS hornet is as much of a challenge to land as the real thing.

Rolling into the groove you're still on speed, center to little high ball, and you're working the throttle from there. You literally will not have to move the stick forward or aft at all, mainly just left and right to maintain lineup. Throttle will move around (shouldn't be the huge power corrections you see on some videos) to maintain the ball.

 

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I heard the guys training in T-45's really have to resist their desire to move the stick fore and aft. My dad has 400 traps and I've heard this since birth: stick for an amber donut and throttle for glideslope.

PS: he says you Hornet guys are all a bunch of HUD cripples--says you can't land an A-3 at night in bad weather.

PS: he says you Hornet guys are all a bunch of HUD cripples--says you can't land an A-3 at night in bad weather.

Can't imagine that they don't practise landings with an inop HUD.

I heard the guys training in T-45's really have to resist their desire to move the stick fore and aft. My dad has 400 traps and I've heard this since birth: stick for an amber donut and throttle for glideslope.

 

PS: he says you Hornet guys are all a bunch of HUD cripples--says you can't land an A-3 at night in bad weather.

It's a little different at first, but you learn quickly, or are force to rather. Just trim it out and don't really do any push or pull, just have an index finger and thumb on the stick.

Different times for sure, HUDs are awesome.

Can't imagine that they don't practise landings with an inop HUD.

For what I'm doing now I practice them, definitely a little different but once you're trimmed up you're good, you just don't have the E bracket directly in your sight and can't see your trend. Can't use the VV for spot landing like you can on a runway. I haven't been to the boat yet. I can't speak for those hornet drivers.