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U-95 + U-22 Pods and jammers in general in game and IRL


Ice_Cougar

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So with the AJS coming out soon and with the *holds hands up* POSSIBILITY of a Ja-37(Di) of coming into the game...(which I believe has the U-95 pod as it is in Falcon BMS, and all pictures I've found so far of it seem to be on the JA-37) I had to ask the question. Can the AJS carry this jammer pod?

 

Whether it can or not, I am curious about information concerning the following questions (if any of you would be so kind as to answer some of them):

 

Will the U-22 (or U-95) use somewhat basic controls like the A-10C where you just have to push one button for a transmission burst, or will it be like the Mig-21's SPS-141 using active, and passive modes including transmitting controls? (disregarding the fact that the 141 doesn't seem to work in the game against hawk sites yet)

 

Will they work similarly to a jammer that cuts off after a while or continuously transmit until it is turned off?

 

Finally, will they be able to jam surface, maritime, and airborne radars? (or all three or two or only one of these?)

 

If it is even possible to find this out, how effective will they really be against said radars?

 

Bit of a helpful link I've found so far on Swedish countermeasures:

http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviation/text/countermeasures.html

 

U-95 Pod on a Viggen's wing:

u95.jpg

 

U-22 on the starboard wing pylon of an SF-37:

sf37.jpg

 

I don't know too much about jamming really, except for what they do in Falcon and DCS plus some of the basics when it comes to scrambling basic ranging information until/unless the radar is close enough for it's transmissions to "burn" through the jamming signals. So some extra knowledge on how these would work (for any aircraft in the simulation for that matter) would be greatly appreciated and most-welcome on this thread.

 

Thanks! :smilewink:

-Ice_Cougar (Kingfisher in game)


Edited by Ice_Cougar
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I made a post in the big Viggen thread a while ago regarding the KA POD, and as far as I know the usage is similar tot the U-22 POD, even though the latter has some added features (extra bandwith and the possibility to jam multiple threats).

 

Not sure how well this page translates with Google translate or similar, but it has some good information:

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapsel_KA

 

Perhaps I (or someone else) can help you later and do a proper translation.

 

 

Added link for the KA post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2665209&postcount=1037


Edited by BravoYankee4
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I made a post in the big Viggen thread a while ago regarding the KA POD, and as far as I know the usage is similar tot the U-22 POD, even though the latter has some added features (extra bandwith and the possibility to jam multiple threats).

 

Not sure how well this page translates with Google translate or similar, but it has some good information:

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapsel_KA

 

Perhaps I (or someone else) can help you later and do a proper translation.

 

 

Added link for the KA post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2665209&postcount=1037

 

This is great! The Wikipedia page translates beautifully and held some really good info. The PDF seems to harbor info from a manual for an upgraded Viggen and it's operating instructions for the U-22, which is extremely useful. Thanks a lot! :D

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Great :)

The PDF (and the others about the KB pod and RWR) I did was made directly out of the SFI manual. The translation(s) might not be 100% accurate since I'm not familiar with all technical terms in english.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=168144


Edited by BravoYankee4
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Great :)

The PDF (and the others about the KB pod and RWR) I did was made directly out of the SFI manual. The translation(s) might not be 100% accurate since I'm not familiar with all technical terms in english.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=168144

 

Here are the PDF's referred to, with small extracts from the manuals regarding the RWR and CM pods:

 

RWR :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=1025

 

CM (KB) :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=1028

 

CM (KA) :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=1037

 

My god these are all perfect! Thank you so much! :D :book:

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  • 2 weeks later...

I wrote most of that Swedish Wikipedia page with this Swedish PDF as a guide

 

http://www.aef.se/Kopierade_dokument/Motmedel_Bengt_B.pdf

 

The linked document is in Swedish sadly but it goes through the Swedish Air force Countermeasure systems in ever decreasing detail ;) from 1950 up to 2005.

 

 

The AJS-37 and it's predecessor AJ-37 is covered in the PDF.

 

The AJS-Viggen had the same Radar Warning Reciever as the AJ version. It was called APP 27 and it was sadly never upgraded throughout it's service life.

It had 6 antennae each covering 60 degrees it had filters to separate high repetition radar pulses (say a tracking radar) but it sadly lacked CW warner so it wouldn't give you a missile launch warning for a semi-active missile.

 

The Jamming pod however was a different story with both good and bad features.

It had many names First being named KA then U22 then U22/A and last U22/B luckily this was all because it was continuously upgraded during it's service life.

The Air force was basically not pleased with the KA pod's performance so in 1981 the U22 rebuild was being delivered aside from being able to process multiple threads it also had greater bandwith the U22 covered the Ku band something the KA pod didn't.

This is important because fire control radars are often on that band as well as fighter radars like the Mig 21Bis radar.

 

You have to select the jamming progam you want before takeoff (untill the U22/B when you can select between two pre-chosen). The pilot can only select active or standby during the flight. The Jamming is either done with wide area antenna in the front sector or with a directional antenna for more power also in the front sector. Sadly capsule can only be used the front sector. In the rear sector the aircraft has to rely on the Chaff dispensing KB pod.

The pod did have a radio-link that could speak with a pod on another aircraft so they synchronized their jamming ( i think that's what "synkron glimtstörning" mean).

 

The KB pod is interesting because it was developed as a chaff dispensor pod capable of supersonic flight as the legacy pod BOX-3 carried on the A32A Lansen which it would be based on was not.

In the beginning the intention was that the KB pod would also contain EW electronics in the nose and tail but this never materialized. Instead the space in the tail was used to fit flares basically as an afterthought. The nose section remained empty throughout it service life sadly.

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I wrote most of that Swedish Wikipedia page with this Swedish PDF as a guide

 

http://www.aef.se/Kopierade_dokument/Motmedel_Bengt_B.pdf

 

The linked document is in Swedish sadly but it goes through the Swedish Air force Countermeasure systems in ever decreasing detail ;) from 1950 up to 2005.

 

 

The AJS-37 and it's predecessor AJ-37 is covered in the PDF.

 

The AJS-Viggen had the same Radar Warning Reciever as the AJ version. It was called APP 27 and it was sadly never upgraded throughout it's service life.

It had 6 antennae each covering 60 degrees it had filters to separate high repetition radar pulses (say a tracking radar) but it sadly lacked CW warner so it wouldn't give you a missile launch warning for a semi-active missile.

 

The Jamming pod however was a different story with both good and bad features.

It had many names First being named KA then U22 then U22/A and last U22/B luckily this was all because it was continuously upgraded during it's service life.

The Air force was basically not pleased with the KA pod's performance so in 1981 the U22 rebuild was being delivered aside from being able to process multiple threads it also had greater bandwith the U22 covered the Ku band something the KA pod didn't.

This is important because fire control radars are often on that band as well as fighter radars like the Mig 21Bis radar.

 

You have to select the jamming progam you want before takeoff (untill the U22/B when you can select between two pre-chosen). The pilot can only select active or standby during the flight. The Jamming is either done with wide area antenna in the front sector or with a directional antenna for more power also in the front sector. Sadly capsule can only be used the front sector. In the rear sector the aircraft has to rely on the Chaff dispensing KB pod.

The pod did have a radio-link that could speak with a pod on another aircraft so they synchronized their jamming ( i think that's what "synkron glimtstörning" mean).

 

The KB pod is interesting because it was developed as a chaff dispensor pod capable of supersonic flight as the legacy pod BOX-3 carried on the A32A Lansen which it would be based on was not.

In the beginning the intention was that the KB pod would also contain EW electronics in the nose and tail but this never materialized. Instead the space in the tail was used to fit flares basically as an afterthought. The nose section remained empty throughout it service life sadly.

 

Wow! Really cool to meet a guy who wrote/typed most of a Wikipedia page on the pods :D It is unfortunate to hear that the system will not allow us to tell if a semi-active missile has been launched on us :( but I'm sure we'll figure out ways around that ;) The jamming modes sound interesting to try out against various radars too!

 

Bit off-topic from the jammer pods, but do you think we'll get the BOL-300/BOP/A counter-measure launchers mounted on the weapon pylons on viggens?

 

Here is a picture of it on a Ja-37's inboard wing pylon:

ja37_bopa_2.jpg

 

And here is one on display:

bopa.jpg

 

Thanks for your time ;)

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The pylon counter-measures were only mounted on the JA 37 fighter variant. Only pods for us ground pounders.

 

http://www.aef.se/Avionik/Notiser/JA37_Avionik_Notis_2.htm

 

As it say on this page (in Swedish) which is run by an association of people who has worked on avionics and electronics for the military.

 

The Chaff and flare dispensers on the JA-37 Viggen where introduced in 1990.

 

I see. Thanks guys :thumbup:

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https://tanks.mod16.org/pdf/sfi/Fpl%20AJ%2037%20speciell%20f%C3%B6rarinstruktion%20(SFI)%20del%202%20kap%201.pdf

 

I'm on Page 176 of the AJ37 Viggen driver instruction and it has great info on KA ECM pod, which is the first generation of the ECM pod used by the Viggen the AJS-37 carries the U22 possibly the U22/A.

 

The ECM pod can only transmit for 40min after that it's open Freon cooling system runs out.

As you can see in a potential war with Sweden the Ozone layer would become collateral damage :)

 

The Pilot (referred to as the Driver) can choose two modes for the pod, Manual and Automatic.

The Pod takes 180 second spin up time when either of these modes are selected it it was turned off beforehand.

In the Manual mode the ECM pod transmit masking jamming (like white noise).

In the Automatic mode the ECM pod uses deception jamming (like range gate pull off).

The transmitter is Gyrostabilized and covers +-60 degrees horisontally and +-45 degrees vertically.

You choose two programs for the pod before takeoff one for the manual mode and one for the automatic mode. The manual mode is the most limited as you have to choose the frequencies you want to jam in 500MHz or 250MHz intervals beforehand, pretty limiting.

The pod can also initiate the Chaff pod to drop Chaff but it doesn't say when (pages are missing) but it's probably when the Chaff pod is set to drop on warning from the RWR and the KA pod detect a semiactive missile.

 

Also some good news the App 27 might not have CW illumination detection but the KA pod have one because it needs it to jam semi-active radar missiles :D (damn we need a better ECM model in this game).

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https://tanks.mod16.org/pdf/sfi/Fpl%20AJ%2037%20speciell%20f%C3%B6rarinstruktion%20(SFI)%20del%202%20kap%201.pdf

 

I'm on Page 176 of the AJ37 Viggen driver instruction and it has great info on KA ECM pod, which is the first generation of the ECM pod used by the Viggen the AJS-37 carries the U22 possibly the U22/A.

 

The ECM pod can only transmit for 40min after that it's open Freon cooling system runs out.

As you can see in a potential war with Sweden the Ozone layer would become collateral damage :)

 

The Pilot (referred to as the Driver) can choose two modes for the pod, Manual and Automatic.

The Pod takes 180 second spin up time when either of these modes are selected it it was turned off beforehand.

In the Manual mode the ECM pod transmit masking jamming (like white noise).

In the Automatic mode the ECM pod uses deception jamming (like range gate pull off).

The transmitter is Gyrostabilized and covers +-60 degrees horisontally and +-45 degrees vertically.

You choose two programs for the pod before takeoff one for the manual mode and one for the automatic mode. The manual mode is the most limited as you have to choose the frequencies you want to jam in 500MHz or 250MHz intervals beforehand, pretty limiting.

The pod can also initiate the Chaff pod to drop Chaff but it doesn't say when (pages are missing) but it's probably when the Chaff pod is set to drop on warning from the RWR and the KA pod detect a semiactive missile.

 

Also some good news the App 27 might not have CW illumination detection but the KA pod have one because it needs it to jam semi-active radar missiles :D (damn we need a better ECM model in this game).

 

Interesting.

 

And if Carrying the KA pod (does the U22 also have this ability) gives you the ability to detect missile launches that will make it a much more attractive option since the increased Survivability of the Launch warning / Jamming especially together with the Countermeasure pod will actually be worth giving up the 2 weapons in some circumstances. (And im very much hoping they are adding this ability to the module)

 

And Carrying 2x RB 75 (either Normal or T) together with the Countermeasures / Jammer could make it a decent aircraft to pick off Sam units with (Rb 05 or BK 90 could also be used but the RB 75 is simply much more flexible)

atleast if there are no dedicated Sead aircraft available, and its probably better suited to the job then the A-10 is ^^.


Edited by mattebubben
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The U22 pod is about 5 times better than the KA pod because it can target multiple threats and is more sensitive.

 

The U22/A pod get's rid of the Freon cooling instead opting for different but closed loop system so it should be able to operate continuously it also has a new mode wherein it can blind a radar to anything behind the aircraft when it receives a pulse.

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https://tanks.mod16.org/pdf/sfi/Fpl%20AJ%2037%20speciell%20f%C3%B6rarinstruktion%20(SFI)%20del%202%20kap%201.pdf

 

I'm on Page 176 of the AJ37 Viggen driver instruction and it has great info on KA ECM pod, which is the first generation of the ECM pod used by the Viggen the AJS-37 carries the U22 possibly the U22/A.

 

The ECM pod can only transmit for 40min after that it's open Freon cooling system runs out.

As you can see in a potential war with Sweden the Ozone layer would become collateral damage :)

 

The Pilot (referred to as the Driver) can choose two modes for the pod, Manual and Automatic.

The Pod takes 180 second spin up time when either of these modes are selected it it was turned off beforehand.

In the Manual mode the ECM pod transmit masking jamming (like white noise).

In the Automatic mode the ECM pod uses deception jamming (like range gate pull off).

The transmitter is Gyrostabilized and covers +-60 degrees horisontally and +-45 degrees vertically.

You choose two programs for the pod before takeoff one for the manual mode and one for the automatic mode. The manual mode is the most limited as you have to choose the frequencies you want to jam in 500MHz or 250MHz intervals beforehand, pretty limiting.

The pod can also initiate the Chaff pod to drop Chaff but it doesn't say when (pages are missing) but it's probably when the Chaff pod is set to drop on warning from the RWR and the KA pod detect a semiactive missile.

 

Also some good news the App 27 might not have CW illumination detection but the KA pod have one because it needs it to jam semi-active radar missiles :D (damn we need a better ECM model in this game).

 

Really cool! It makes the pod a great option as it enhances not only survivability, but situational awareness... :shocking:

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The U22 pod is about 5 times better than the KA pod because it can target multiple threats and is more sensitive.

 

The U22/A pod get's rid of the Freon cooling instead opting for different but closed loop system so it should be able to operate continuously it also has a new mode wherein it can blind a radar to anything behind the aircraft when it receives a pulse.

 

And does it also have the Ability to detect Launches like the KA?.

 

And in addition would the jammer pods only detect launches against the aircraft carrying the Pod or would it also be able to detect a launch towards other aircraft if one was flying in close formation?.


Edited by mattebubben
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Fingers crossed that LNS could at least implement some functions specific to this ECM pods.

 

Though I assume that much of it would have to be coded by ED on a global level, such as the ability of deception jammers to break locks, chaff to break locks or chaff to mask other aircraft (chaff corridors).

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The pod did have a radio-link that could speak with a pod on another aircraft so they synchronized their jamming ( i think that's what "synkron glimtstörning" mean).

 

 

I figured out what Glimtstörning is :D

In the Swedish ECM manual it's described as a way of using noise jammers against say a monopulse radar or a semiactive radar missile. If you just use noise jamming all you do is reveal your position, now this might be fine in some situations when you can stand off outside missile range but inside missile range it's pretty bad.

So what the radio link between two pods does is that the noise jamming is switched between two aircraft flying with a bit of distance between them. The alternating jamming causes a missile to act like a cat chasing two laser pointers and first steer towards one aircraft and then the other and then the first again etc, with good tactics this should cause any missile to fly between the two aircraft without hitting either of them.

 

P.S. does someone have a better english word for what this is called other than "Switched Jamming" ?


Edited by AdurianJ
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That sounds very interesting! I can not wait to see how effective exactly is the "switch jamming" tactic!

 

P.S. perhaps "alternating jamming" (between two aircraft) would be a better term? :P

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That sounds very interesting! I can not wait to see how effective exactly is the "switch jamming" tactic!

I wouldn't get too excited, the DCS EW environment is very simplified and while Leatherneck can simulate the Viggen being jammed by other sources in novel ways, I don't think they're going to be able to impose any new jamming methods on the rest of the game environment.

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I wouldn't get too excited, the DCS EW environment is very simplified and while Leatherneck can simulate the Viggen being jammed by other sources in novel ways, I don't think they're going to be able to impose any new jamming methods on the rest of the game environment.

 

Very true. In fact the Semi-active seekers in DCS don't even operate like the real ones, rather they just mimic the performance of the real ones, making it look like its working as per the real thing...Won't stop me from being hopeful that they'll work something out with more developed EW warfare and possibly even chaff corridors. :lol:

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i expect sps-121-like (lack of) functionality to start off with at best.

 

i do hope we get more fleshed out ew environment in the future of course, it's going to be amazing considering how confounded people can be already with just the fc3 ecm.


Edited by probad
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i expect sps-121-like (lack of) functionality to start off with at best.

 

i do hope we get more fleshed out ew environment in the future of course, it's going to be amazing considering how confounded people can be already with just the fc3 ecm.

 

Very true. However if I'm correct, isn't the sps-121 pod supposed to only jam Hawk sites? Not aircraft radars?

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Very true. However if I'm correct, isn't the sps-121 pod supposed to only jam Hawk sites? Not aircraft radars?

 

Well what part of the engagement chain of the HAWK battery is it supposed to jam ?

I'm unsure of the acquisition mode in the HAWK battery but the fire control radar is usually the weakest link, if you can trick the fire control radar to break lock it doesn't matter if the Continuous Wave guidance is difficult to jam, it won't be pointed at anything.

 

Fire control radars are also the ones most like aircraft radars after all.

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