The Gazelle and Cyclic input with a Joystick.

Having flown the Gazelle for the best part of 2 years and what a journey that has been. I have to say that the level of fine control that is needed to fly this helicopter can cause issues for users, for want of a better term who are using a joystick.

This is because of the centric nature of the Gazelles cyclic and for at least the Logitech 3D Pro joystick and I understand others too you end up with this kinda "magnetic dead zone" sort of effect in the centre of pitch and roll inputs, all very convenient if you have a joystick and you use trim.

The biggest issue I found was that to nudge a small amount of pitch or roll required a fairly decent amount of movement and all of a sudden there you go over did the input and your left to correct that. Possibly one of the major causes of frustration especially for new Gazelle pilots.

Does this affect other helicopters yes but because of the input modelling and their mass no where as much as the Gazelle.

I'm kinda lucky in that I have cobbled together a cyclic and collective (working on pedals) and by adding an extension I sort of fudged around this issue till recently I've added a Leo Bodnar USB interface (any of the other interfaces should also be fine) and this does not have the "dead spot" programmed into it. The net result is a much finer level of cyclic input around the center of cyclic action and none that overshoot that was associated with the dreaded "dead spot" that I would get with the Logitech joystick controller.

So if you have persevered thus far, what I am saying is that whilst it's fine to use a joystick you may find they can have serious limitations which can impact your control of the Gazelle in negative ways. These include but are not limited to pickup, hovering, set down, to manoeuvring and flight or simply having some serious fun. ;)

HTH.

I'd seen extensions for the Warthog stick that would somewhat mitigate for the dead-zone PIOs, and one could apply a curve to the cyclic axis; though I've so far gotten away without doing that.

Currently I find I can get satisfactory control of the SA342 with the CH Flightstick, though it's a little bit of 'pat-your-head-rub-your-tummy-and-tap-your-feet' for a zero ground track hover.

I'd seen extensions for the Warthog stick that would somewhat mitigate for the dead-zone PIOs, and one could apply a curve to the cyclic axis; though I've so far gotten away without doing that.

 

Currently I find I can get satisfactory control of the SA342 with the CH Flightstick, though it's a little bit of 'pat-your-head-rub-your-tummy-and-tap-your-feet' for a zero ground track hover.

That's my point it shouldn't be that way, I wasn't asking a question I was making a statement. You really need fine input controls to allow the Gazelle to reach it's full potential. It also makes all the other helis great as well. :thumbup:

Very low saturation helps a lot

I've just been working on a home made joystick extension for my warthog this week. It uses some 22mm copper water pipe and a garden hose connector from Lidl. I've got the pipe hooked up and I'm waiting for the mini Din connectors to arrive from eBay.

So far it seems to be working ok, the extension makes the joystick much looser around centre, more like a real cyclic. I found the Warthog centring spring a bit strong for helicopter control, so I thought I'd give this a try. It will be interesting to see how the setup transfers to fixed wing craft then, I hope it works well once I adjust the curves.

i took the return spring out of my warthog over a year ago.

never looked back :)

the only helicopter i press the trim button with is the KA-50 and that only because trim is linked to the autopilot.

i was going to get an extension but taking the spring out was enough.

How did that work with normal fixed wing aircraft? Did it feel OK?

I'd wager it'd be fine for fixed, but you'll not be able to come off the stick unless you can disable input from it.

On the ground we used to hold the stick back with the lap belt parts of the harness so the wind wouldn't take the ailerons or elevator and bang the thing around; no self-centering sticks for fixed wings I've flown, though once the surfaces get enough authority you've got that resistance/feedback that you'll lack.

One of the worst stick springs I had for desktop was some Saitek FLY(5?) it was ridiculous, it'd lift the base off the desk unless you had a downward-death-grip on it, no fingertip flying with that thing- unless you removed the spring. CH's stock spring is tolerable for having a spring at all, though mine's quite a few years old so maybe they slacken off.

it works well with anything you have to actually fly, so world war 2 birds and the older jets.

it can be a bit annoying in the a10c when knocking it turns off your autopilot.

when you need to trawl through sub menus.

but it also makes air to air refuelling easier. so even in the A10c it has its plus points.

the warthog has 4 small precision springs as well as the main big return spring.

so you use a combination of those 4 to give some centring force.

the stick will happily stand to attention.

so you can take your hand off it

@ouPhrontis ''

On the ground we used to hold the stick back with the lap belt parts of the harness so the wind wouldn't take the ailerons or elevator and bang the thing around; no self-centering sticks for fixed wings I've flown, though once the surfaces get enough authority you've got that resistance/feedback that you'll lack.''

To what aircraft are you refering to? Thats a question i did not find a good answer to for the longest time. Do most non fly-by-wire fixed wing aircraft have a build-in centering force on their sticks or do they stay whereever you put them until control surface pressures push it around with increasing speeds?

Having flown the Gazelle for the best part of 2 years and what a journey that has been. I have to say that the level of fine control that is needed to fly this helicopter can cause issues for users, for want of a better term who are using a joystick.

 

This is because of the centric nature of the Gazelles cyclic and for at least the Logitech 3D Pro joystick and I understand others too you end up with this kinda "magnetic dead zone" sort of effect in the centre of pitch and roll inputs, all very convenient if you have a joystick and you use trim.

 

The biggest issue I found was that to nudge a small amount of pitch or roll required a fairly decent amount of movement and all of a sudden there you go over did the input and your left to correct that. Possibly one of the major causes of frustration especially for new Gazelle pilots.

 

Does this affect other helicopters yes but because of the input modelling and their mass no where as much as the Gazelle.

 

I'm kinda lucky in that I have cobbled together a cyclic and collective (working on pedals) and by adding an extension I sort of fudged around this issue till recently I've added a Leo Bodnar USB interface (any of the other interfaces should also be fine) and this does not have the "dead spot" programmed into it. The net result is a much finer level of cyclic input around the center of cyclic action and none that overshoot that was associated with the dreaded "dead spot" that I would get with the Logitech joystick controller.

 

So if you have persevered thus far, what I am saying is that whilst it's fine to use a joystick you may find they can have serious limitations which can impact your control of the Gazelle in negative ways. These include but are not limited to pickup, hovering, set down, to manoeuvring and flight or simply having some serious fun. ;)

 

HTH.

I couldn't agree more! It's like there is a preset dead zone and once you cross it, the heli goes full tilt at that point.

I lost interest in the Gazelle because of this issue. I have seen it talked about before and have mentioned it myself but nothing ever came of it. So I just assumed that this was the lay of the land and shelved the Gazelle.

I used oil dampers from RC cars to provide some resistance to movement but not give a center detent so it's totally free to move.

Here's how it looks.

The tube is a gas pipe which has a plastic outer inclosing a steel pipe with a nylon inner it's very light weight and rigid. copper tubing might be a tad heavy.

More info here.

More info here.

The overall feel is about as heavy as an R44 cyclic AKA freaking light as, ditching the center detent and springs makes a huge difference and the dampers hold the cyclic in position well enough to use mouse or keyboard when needed. I also do not need to use trim.

I couldn't agree more! It's like there is a preset dead zone and once you cross it, the heli goes full tilt at that point.

I lost interest in the Gazelle because of this issue. I have seen it talked about before and have mentioned it myself but nothing ever came of it. So I just assumed that this was the lay of the land and shelved the Gazelle.

Gotta say without that pesky built in dead zone and the improved flight model the Gazelle is an awesome bird to fly, I could be biased though. :P :D

Actually all the heli's are awesome to fly. :)

Gotta say without that pesky built in dead zone and the improved flight model the Gazelle is an awesome bird to fly, I could be biased though. :P :D

 

Actually all the heli's are awesome to fly. :)

Oh.....I love the Huey. And I did love the Gazelle until that dead zone was put there. My problem lies in that I don't fly any one module exclusively. And if they change something in an update, my muscle memory is all out of whack. Rather than spend time retraining it, I'll just get aggravated that they couldn't leave well enough alone.

I did however spend some time working with the Gazelle after the changes, but just lost interest. Sort of the same with the Mi8. People have had this issue with the auto pilot not staying engaged and I'm one of them. It's been this way for several updates now so I just tossed the Mi8 into the scrap heap.

It seems that there are so many problems with the modules these days that there are only a few that I bother with. DCS has always had issues here and there but it's worse than it's ever been with no end in sight IMO. It's the main reason that I'm not purchasing any modules at this point. Why buy another bunch of bugs and problems? I did pre purchase the new map, but no more aircraft until I see progress on the old ones.

Oh.....I love the Huey. And I did love the Gazelle until that dead zone was put there. My problem lies in that I don't fly any one module exclusively. And if they change something in an update, my muscle memory is all out of whack. Rather than spend time retraining it, I'll just get aggravated that they couldn't leave well enough alone.

I did however spend some time working with the Gazelle after the changes, but just lost interest. Sort of the same with the Mi8. People have had this issue with the auto pilot not staying engaged and I'm one of them. It's been this way for several updates now so I just tossed the Mi8 into the scrap heap.

Okay, I'm not sure about a programmed dead spot in cyclic from DCS/PC? Other then in settings but that just made the Logitech USB controller worse. I'm only aware of the "dead spot I found in the USB controller for the Logitesh 3D Pro, I could see it on the X and Y axis in settings as I moved cyclic input. That action doesn't occur with the Leo Bodner USB interface using the same gimbal assembly it's a smooth progression with cyclic input.

It seems that there are so many problems with the modules these days that there are only a few that I bother with. DCS has always had issues here and there but it's worse than it's ever been with no end in sight IMO. It's the main reason that I'm not purchasing any modules at this point. Why buy another bunch of bugs and problems? I did pre purchase the new map, but no more aircraft until I see progress on the old ones.

Yeah I know it can be frustrating at times, but I'm finding DCS in general in 2.5.x OB to be mostly better after readjusting both myself and DCS settings. It helps sometimes. :thumbup:

FragBum: I'm using a CH pro stick. My problem is that (only with the Gazelle) that I can move my stick in any direction and it has no immediate effect on the aircraft until it gets to a certain degree and then it seems to catch, and when it does, it's not subtle. I end up having to go in the complete opposite direction to correct, and it is very difficult to not overcompensate. So basically, there is a dead spot in the center. It does not show up in the control settings. I can even see the the cyclic moves when I move my stick, but the AC itself doesn't react until it moves to a certain point. I would post a track but we all know how that works. Just another issue in a long list of growing issues. I have to stand by my opinion. I'm not upset. I just don't fly those modules. I don't need any adjusting. My attitude is fine because I don't take any of this personally. But we've all been putting up with many of these issues for a god awful long time now. So.......I just stopped investing in modules at this point.

I enjoy the planes that work and don't bother with the ones that don't. Pretty easy really.

@ouPhrontis ''

On the ground we used to hold the stick back with the lap belt parts of the harness so the wind wouldn't take the ailerons or elevator and bang the thing around; no self-centering sticks for fixed wings I've flown, though once the surfaces get enough authority you've got that resistance/feedback that you'll lack.''

 

To what aircraft are you refering to? Thats a question i did not find a good answer to for the longest time. Do most non fly-by-wire fixed wing aircraft have a build-in centering force on their sticks or do they stay whereever you put them until control surface pressures push it around with increasing speeds?

I've got some limited experience flying gliders, only ASK13s, and powered aircraft, say HR200, R2160 and stick time on some others, like a DA40, and being a hangar-rat around plenty of others, like a Beagle Auster D5, there's some light resistance with the mechanical linkages (to varying degrees) and so the stick in some will remain pretty much where you left it, unless there's say a stiff breeze, or with others a light fart, this was more noticeable with gliders as very little resistance was present on the ASK13s I flew, to the extent we needed to either have locks in place, or hold the stick with a lap-belt, none (with perhaps the exception of the DA40 as I only got stick time in the air with that BMW of the sky) had any self-centering mechanism.

The rudder in the HR200 and R2160 were also connected to the nose-wheel steering, so that on the ground just remained whereever the nose-wheel was pointing as it's locked in place with a terring lock.

Ahhh I guess this explains my experience yesterday flying the gazelle for the first day in quite a while. I really struggled trying to control her as I just couldn’t put in smooth inputs. I had been flying the Huey immediately before that and the feeling of movement is just night and day. It almost felt like the Gazelle was on rails with very jerky movement. Really affected my enjoyment of the aircraft.

Is the real aircraft the same as this, or is it a bug do we know?

Ahhh I guess this explains my experience yesterday flying the gazelle for the first day in quite a while. I really struggled trying to control her as I just couldn’t put in smooth inputs. I had been flying the Huey immediately before that and the feeling of movement is just night and day. It almost felt like the Gazelle was on rails with very jerky movement. Really affected my enjoyment of the aircraft.

 

Is the real aircraft the same as this, or is it a bug do we know?

I think you're gonna struggle to get the same feel as a rotary wing cyclic with a short throw sprung desktop joystick, I manage but it requires subtle inputs and forgiving it for the centre spot. An actual cyclic is quite a long throw control column, pivoting down near or sometimes at the floor with no centring.

I came back to the Gazelle recently once what I perceived as big FM improvements kicked in. What made it more pleasant to me was restricting the cyclic throw to 60% using the "Axis Tuning" link. The Gazelle is so maneuverable that you will never need that other 40% anyway.

:helpsmilie:

Ahhh I guess this explains my experience yesterday flying the gazelle for the first day in quite a while. I really struggled trying to control her as I just couldn’t put in smooth inputs. I had been flying the Huey immediately before that and the feeling of movement is just night and day. It almost felt like the Gazelle was on rails with very jerky movement. Really affected my enjoyment of the aircraft.

 

Is the real aircraft the same as this, or is it a bug do we know?

It shouldn't be like that, seriously. :D

@ouPhrontis So from your own experience, you would say that the self-centering springs in our Thrustmaster or CH Products mimic a behaviour that is not present in probably most aircraft? Hence, if the specific joystick had even resistance to not ouright fall over, removing the spring like Fragbum did would actually mimic a more reaslitc stick feel short of a FFB joystick?

Second question; spring-loaded joysticks force you to do a whole lot of trimming all the time. But if real aircraft sticks are not self-centering, wouldn't that mean that you don't need to trim as often and strongly as we do in DCS because all those smaller adjustments are simply done by putting the stick a bit off-center?

@ouPhrontis So from your own experience, you would say that the self-centering springs in our Thrustmaster or CH Products mimic a behaviour that is not present in probably most aircraft? Hence, if the specific joystick had even resistance to not ouright fall over, removing the spring like Fragbum did would actually mimic a more reaslitc stick feel short of a FFB joystick?

 

Second question; spring-loaded joysticks force you to do a whole lot of trimming all the time. But if real aircraft sticks are not self-centering, wouldn't that mean that you don't need to trim as often and strongly as we do in DCS because all those smaller adjustments are simply done by putting the stick a bit off-center?

To the first, it depends, because as airspeed builds then a resistance will start to build when you attempt to deflect control surfaces into the airflow, especially against trim, it's not a fully centring force though, just the resistance felt diminishes as you relax pressure on the stick and rudder.

To the second, no you still need to trim, but it's done perhaps opposite to what most PC/sim only pilots might think, in that you hold the aircraft in say level flight with pressure on the flight controls (stick, rudder) wait until airspeed settles (power etc as required), and then trim out the pressure until no more pressure is felt (trim being a luxury on ailerons and rudder), then you should be able to release the controls and it'll 'fly itself'. So that feedback or resistance can be somewhat analogous to the spring pressure on a desktop stick.

The trim in a real aircraft deflects the control surface usually via a tab actuated in the opposite direction, so that the elevator is bias by X amount one direction or another without the pilot required to exert that force on the stick, but this is not self-centring. Trim is required to be fitted elevators (at least GA as I understand), but tends to be a luxury on ailerons and rudders. I use to have to hold a boot load of right rudder on the takeoff with the HR200 for example (this varied too from one HR200 to another, just adjusted differently), no trim for that fitted, plus some slight right rudder was held in throughout the flight, though this could be adjusted out with the right tools when on the ground.

Just to reiterate; once in flight and trim, you will feel resistance against the stick and rudder if presenting the control surfaces into airflow, so in that regard it might feel as if it's self-centring, if you're properly trimmed out; the aircraft (most GA) will settle back down into say straight and level if you pushed fore-aft on the stick for a bit and didn't alter the power; extreme attitude chances not-with-standing.

Though on some I've flown; they've no rudder or aileron trim, so you're always holding those in whatever manner required to maintain the desired attitude etc.

I think you're gonna struggle to get the same feel as a rotary wing cyclic with a short throw sprung desktop joystick, I manage but it requires subtle inputs and forgiving it for the centre spot. An actual cyclic is quite a long throw control column, pivoting down near or sometimes at the floor with no centring.

I appreciate that, sadly it’s one of the restrictions we simmers have to face. But what I mean is when I fly the Huey, the movement of the helo is a smooth motion even with my warthog setup. I don’t feel like I’m fighting with the sim so to speak.

With the Gazelle, I wasn’t able to get smooth motion whatsoever, i would pull back and instead of the nose coming up smoothly, nothing would happen and then it jumps up a bit, stops then jumps again, likewise turning left of right, nothing happens then it jumps a bit in the relevant direction, stops, then jumps again, rather than a smooth progressive roll, that you get in other modules.

I have no idea if it’s a bug, or the gazelle really does operate this way, although I would be surprised if it does.

I appreciate you need to be fairly light on the controls, but it just didn’t feel right, like I said I’ve not flown her for a good yr or so, so I may just be extremely rusty, dispite flying the Huey most days.