BVR Help?

Hi all,

 

I am slowly coming to terms with FC2.0 after buying it this week. however; I am having serious difficulty understanding how to win at BVR. To date, I ahve focused my efforts on understanding the Su27 and its radar/a2a systems.

 

When flying online MP - it seems my survival is a pipe dream - offling in missions etc it is much higher.

 

This leads me to think that there are aspects of BVR against human opponents that are simply not reproduced in the offline AI missions.

 

How the heck do I fly online in a Su27 and have any chance at living? I notice i often have ECM pods with a few r73 with r27ers... eos is useless for the ER so i lift and start up BVR with radar scan. usually set MED aspect and switch to HI when i suspect they are painting me too.

 

I set scan estimation to around 60km and begin a slow and methodical search pattern - allowing for about 6 seconds before changing my X or Y axis of radar.

 

1. Should I be flying low or high?

2. Should I fire up the ECM immediately after wheels up?

3. Should I lock on radar sources as soon as I can and try to force a burn through for early r27er launch?

4. Once the radar is locked, should unlock to adjust range and height? I lose the HUD indications of range etc after lock established so I assume it auto tracks?

5. On the rare occasion i can launch an ER - my opponent also launches his R77 or AIM 120... forcing me to go evasive and lose my radar lock... What should I do?

6. Are there any MUST read threads or resources i shoudl look into? I have tried to apply the flankertraining "winning the BVR" but it has yet to "play out" even remotely similar to the tutorial in the online world.

 

Any tips greatly appreciated.

:helpsmilie:

2. Should I fire up the ECM immediately after wheels up?

 

I sadly don't have time to answer all right now, but on this one: absolutely not.

 

Going music on makes you harder to range and identify for your enemy - but the same goes for your friends. I've wasted a lot of time online doing emergency interceptions on what appears to be a bandit trying to sneak up on our strikers, only to find that it was a person on our own team who didn't read (or ignored) the repeated requests on team chat for all on the team to shut off ECM for a moment to allow IFF...

 

Also, burn-through ranges mean that your jam strobe won't help you in the regime where I would launch my missiles on you, anyway, it only means I have to use other tactics to range you until the burn-through.

Edited June 11, 2010 by EtherealN

so when is ECM warranted? It seems everyone uses them online.... when exactly are they a good idea?

1. Should I be flying low or high?

Fly high. It gives your missiles more range, and you have altitude to trade for energy

 

2. Should I fire up the ECM immediately after wheels up?

No. Use ECM to mask your movements when moving into a notch or to spoil a missile launch on you.

 

3. Should I lock on radar sources as soon as I can and try to force a burn through for early r27er launch?

Lock non-jamming targets to get their altitude, velocity and aspect (or use TWS for aspect) and when guiding a R-27ER. Lock jamming targets to get their altitude.

 

4. Once the radar is locked, should unlock to adjust range and height? I lose the HUD indications of range etc after lock established so I assume it auto tracks?

There is no need to unlock, though you can change the range. And it auto tracks altitude and azimuth.

 

5. On the rare occasion i can launch an ER - my opponent also launches his R77 or AIM 120... forcing me to go evasive and lose my radar lock... What should I do?

Fly high, launch from R-max (R-27ER has the largest range in FC2.0), put the bandit at gimbals, extend brake and slow down, and dive.

 

6. Are there any MUST read threads or resources i shoudl look into? I have tried to apply the flankertraining "winning the BVR" but it has yet to "play out" even remotely similar to the tutorial in the online world.

Flankertraining would be the place to start. For the rest, fly against the AI with labels on to get familiar with engagement ranges, missile properties and timings of missile launches and hits.

so when is ECM warranted? It seems everyone uses them online.... when exactly are they a good idea?

 

It's mostly noobs flying around with ecm on so must. Better players only tend to use it once they can ascertain they've positively been shot at in order to try and break lock. Note that there is a 15sec warm up.

 

Anyway, online you are coming up against some people much like yourself with little experience, and other people who've been flying for nearly 20 years....so you've got some catching up to do. here's some links to stuff you should read to get some ideas of what to do, don't expect to get good for a bit though. *note a lot of this stuff is Falcon 4 BVR, but the concepts are valid for Fc2* Some of it might be bulls*** but still has some terms you need to come to know.

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_042a.html

 

http://www.papadoc.net/aunt_marys_guide_to_bvr.htm

 

http://seawolves.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=176

 

http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-10691.html

this is great - thanks guys ... i come from prop sims so it is a steep learning curve shooting and manuevering against that which I cannot see.

 

As soon as I get into CAC I actually fare quite well.

 

What constitutes "high flying" online? 10000m ? 15,000 m? And if i am flying at those alts - I presume I am slewing radar low - at least -2?

 

so when i pick up a jamming target - you are advising lock on to the source with HI and vector towards it and wait for Rmax? Any advice when i should consider launch auth overide?? If I am crazy high - wouldnt it be presumable my seeker has greater range and i could launch outside of envelope?

What constitutes "high flying" online? 10000m ? 15,000 m? And if i am flying at those alts - I presume I am slewing radar low - at least -2?

Either just below contrails (8000m) or above it (12000m). Scan all the way down. I prefer to stay at the expected range of 10km and will then scan all the way down occasionally.

another noob Q: Does the simple act of even turning my radar on increase my detectability to enemies? Or do i have to have somehting locked to make my arse visible?

Unless you are in their RWR blind spot, then turning it will certainly alert them. Russian planes might overlook you if they have bigger threat displayed as primary, but US one will see you very clearly.

If they have the radar pointed at you, they see you regardless of what you're doing, and what radar modes you are or are not using.

 

There are ways to dissapear from their radar scope, but you won't be seeing them either in those situations.

OK.. i been reading quite a bit now on this and am starting to peice it together... one other question about ECM... in a head on engagement, it appears timing the ECM "on" is crucial... Too soon and they have some pretty important info - too late and i probably missed the chance to deny radar lock.

 

Should i be turning ECM off once I launch my first missile at rmax? And what does an HOJ shot refer to?

HOJ: Home On Jamming... To fire a missile against ECM :)

HOJ: Home On Jamming... To fire a missile against ECM :)

 

 

is this common and is the R27 er a fire and forget in this situation? i am often too concerned with keeping my bandit at edge of radar gimble... Does HOJ shot imply I can can break lock and it will still track?

 

thanks sooo much for the extra help guys... manual is a little thin and experience teaches... albeit painfully.

Does HOJ shot imply I can can break lock and it will still track?

Yes, you can launch an R-27ER in home on jam, and then break the lock. You must remember though that the missile will fly a pure trajectory, and it will not fly the lead trajectory that it would if the bandit was not jamming and you had the bandit locked. Because of this, the missile does not have much probability of hitting a bandit that is flying towards you. There'll be a high probability of a kill if the bandit is flying away from you.

 

However, if you are able to maintain a lock until burning through the jammer, the missile will switch from pure to lead pursuit, and the bandit will only then receive the launch warning. This may lead him to think the missile was launched just then when in fact it is much closer, and he may decide to press a bit longer, long enough for the missile to hit him.

is this common and is the R27 er a fire and forget in this situation? i am often too concerned with keeping my bandit at edge of radar gimble... Does HOJ shot imply I can can break lock and it will still track?

 

thanks sooo much for the extra help guys... manual is a little thin and experience teaches... albeit painfully.

Yes. the ER will home onto the jammer. Now... the F-15 TEWS will detect a HOJ launch on it. The Russian SPO will not. So if that jammer is a Russian jet he will hear the lock, but not the launch. The other thing is if you maintain the lock after the Launch and you reach burn through AFAIK, the ER will then turn to Semi active guidance. Once this happens, IIRC you have to guide it. It should be noted also that the ER will follow directly to the jammer, and will not follow an efficient intercept route. Because of this, PK is not very high in this scenario and because in the Su-27 burn through happens at longish range, and a shot at this range will have low energy by the time the missile reachs target. Ironically, HOJ shots in a Mig with a 27ER might have higher PK because the radar is weaker and hence burn through happens a lot later, meaning the ER will have a lot more energy- I'm talking about firing just before burn through with both jets.

 

I had a track once of a near head on shot on a HOJ with a ER. Sometime before impact the target dropped altitude and the ER almost lost the guide. It followed the target in a shallow turn and ended up with just enough speed to rear end the target. :P

^^ no, because the ER still needs the guidance from your radar, in fact HOJ is a poor guidance, because you don't know the where the enemy is heading and at which range, the missile will head directly towards the target which is most of the time not the shortest way.

 

..after some minutes.. it can guide without lock.. hmm because ECM is emitting noise?

Than don't mind my nonsence

Edited June 11, 2010 by asparagin

^^ no, because the ER still needs the guidance from your radar, in fact HOJ is a poor guidance, because you don't know the where the enemy is heading and at which range, the missile will head directly towards the target which is most of the time not the shortest way.

Not on HOJ.

Some good info in this thread, keep it up please :)

 

I have a question though, shouldn't a SARH missile fired in HOJ be able to do a proportional pursuit like heat seeking missiles do?

In most cases yes. Like with many other things, the current ECM/ECCM/HOJ simulation is a compromise.

 

I have a question though, shouldn't a SARH missile fired in HOJ be able to do a proportional pursuit like heat seeking missiles do?

OK.. i been reading quite a bit now on this and am starting to peice it together... one other question about ECM... in a head on engagement, it appears timing the ECM "on" is crucial... Too soon and they have some pretty important info - too late and i probably missed the chance to deny radar lock.

 

Should i be turning ECM off once I launch my first missile at rmax?

 

Any insight on this question? thanks again for all the help

OK.. i been reading quite a bit now on this and am starting to peice it together... one other question about ECM... in a head on engagement, it appears timing the ECM "on" is crucial... Too soon and they have some pretty important info - too late and i probably missed the chance to deny radar lock.

 

Should i be turning ECM off once I launch my first missile at rmax?

 

Launching your missile really doesn't determine when you should use ECM, but you make a good point. If you know when you are at Rmax, then assuming the bandit is at a similar altitude (more height = greater Rmax) and the bandit has similar missiles, you know the bandit's Rmax. So, don't turn it on to much before Rmax so as not give away your position, and turn it off once you think you are well within Rmax and closer to Rtr. In fact, if you simply leave ECM on it will act as a magnet for missiles. ECM against RUS jets really does not do too much in FC2. Against the F-15 though you will deny a F-15's ability to launch TWS mode until they get burn through. ECM can spoil a missile shot launched at Rmax though, if it was launched non-HOJ before you turned on ECM.

 

If a SAM fires on you it can spoil a Rmax shot. You can actually get closer to SAMs with ECM on before they fire, but when they are able to fire on you, they fire from a closer range and you have a harder time trashing the missile.

 

 

Leave your radar on. The guys that fly around with radar off are taking the chance that you will not find them, so they are basically gambling that you wont. Better to get good with the radar and find the bandit, then to hope you may get close with radar off. I doubt RL pilots that have their life on the line are radar off with known enemy close to them if their mission is to engage fighters.

 

Rmax shots may be good sometimes to get the bandit on the defensive, but even better, if the bandit is preoccupied or other wise does not know you are there, hold your lock to not give them a warning until you are ready to fire closer to Rtr. Then they have less chance of escape.

I fired R-27ER HOJ shot and man what a kill. Normally the target plane could break the lock easily but here it was just awesome.