Red Tails

Looks to be a good watch.

http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi1780522521/

Looks like a very pretty movie, but frankly the flight sequences just LOOKED CG to me. Aircraft rolled/turned/moved too fast (which looks more exciting, but is still wrong on a physics level), too much flashy camera work, and too much Hollywood explosion

That aside, I rather dislike the idea on a base level. Without getting too political, I hate the idea of another Tuskeegee airmen movie for several reasons: 1) it kind of belittles the efforts of all the other air groups, army and marine divisions, and warship crews that fought WW2. How many decent WW2 aviation films have we had in recent years? How many of those were about the Tuskeegee airmen? 2) it's historically inaccurate. It will continue to perpetuate the myth that the Tuskeegee airmen never lost a bomber under their charge, which simply... well, isn't true. They lost bombers. They were good pilots, but they weren't supermen. Which leads to my main complaint, 3) making a racially charged movie of this type is just plain stupid. It opens old wounds. Here in America we seem, as a society, to think the way to end racism is to keep pointing out all the great things minority races have done. It's the wrong approach: it just furthers the divide by providing ammunition to people that want to make it an "us versus them" world. Heck, even from the tailer, it's obvious that's the spin the movie is putting out: evil old racist white generals trying to repress the black aviators.

Good intentions of the film makers aside, you end up with a portion (I would wager a small portion, but still) of the black population claiming precedents such as this as justification for why their race is superior. I don't care if it's white claiming to be superior to blacks or blacks claiming to be superior to whites, it's all racist. It would be much better to stop spending so much effort on saying "blacks are great" or "latinos are great", or "whatever race is great", and instead just focus on "all people are created equal". Gee... where have I heard that before?

If someone really felt the need to make a movie about the end of racism in the US military, and highlight the fact that Soldiers are patriots regardless of race, why not make a movie about the first mixed combat units in the Korean conflict instead? Instead of telling the story of black aviators overcoming their evil racist overlords (IE, white folk), why not tell the story of white and black soldiers fighting side by side against a COMMON ENEMY, against overwhelming odds, in unforgiving terrain and lethal winters? Besides, Korea is an underreported war.

Looks like a very pretty movie, but frankly the flight sequences just LOOKED CG to me.

Maybe it looked CG because it is CG.

That aside, I rather dislike the idea on a base level. Without getting too political, I hate the idea of another Tuskeegee airmen movie

Then don't watch it!

1) it kind of belittles the efforts of all the other air groups, army and marine divisions, and warship crews that fought WW2. How many decent WW2 aviation films have we had in recent years? How many of those were about the Tuskeegee airmen?

Belittles?

That's like saying "Memphis Belle" and "The Battle Of Britain" movies belittles black pilots of WWII because there are is no acknowledgment of them in either film.

If it wasn't for the Taskegee airmen, there wouldn't be a single WWII movie with a black pilot in it and that's why they overcame that adversity. To be recognized as an equal.

2) it's historically inaccurate. It will continue to perpetuate the myth that the Tuskeegee airmen never lost a bomber under their charge, which simply... well, isn't true. They lost bombers. They were good pilots, but they weren't supermen. Which leads to my main complaint,

So you want the movie to be historically accurate but leave out the part about race being an issue in the U.S. Army during WWII?

BTW. I too hope they tell the truth about the statistics. I know some bombers were shot down and I hope they say so too.

The truth is always good but Hollywood doesn't care much for the truth.

3) making a racially charged movie of this type is just plain stupid. It opens old wounds. Here in America we seem, as a society, to think the way to end racism is to keep pointing out all the great things minority races have done.

Doesn't this movie do that?

It's the wrong approach: it just furthers the divide by providing ammunition to people that want to make it an "us versus them" world. Heck, even from the tailer, it's obvious that's the spin the movie is putting out: evil old racist white generals trying to repress the black aviators.

Other than the evil part isn't that what happened?

Better idea! Change the script.....

They were nice civil rights Generals?

They were helping the black aviators?

They weren't even black aviators. They were just well tanned aviators.

Well lets just throw away all the history books and act like this never happened.

Tell you the truth, I'd rather know the ugly truth than a sugar coated lie.

Good intentions of the film makers aside, you end up with a portion (I would wager a small portion, but still) of the black population claiming precedents such as this as justification for why their race is superior. I don't care if it's white claiming to be superior to blacks or blacks claiming to be superior to whites, it's all racist. It would be much better to stop spending so much effort on saying "blacks are great" or "latinos are great", or "whatever race is great", and instead just focus on "all people are created equal". Gee... where have I heard that before?

All men are created equal unless your a Tuskegee airmen. Then lets not make anymore movies about you and make, "Saving Private Ryan Part 2."

If someone really felt the need to make a movie about the end of racism in the US military, and highlight the fact that Soldiers are patriots regardless of race, why not make a movie about the first mixed combat units in the Korean conflict instead? Instead of telling the story of black aviators overcoming their evil racist overlords (IE, white folk), why not tell the story of white and black soldiers fighting side by side against a COMMON ENEMY, against overwhelming odds, in unforgiving terrain and lethal winters? Besides, Korea is an underreported war.

Dude, if I know Hollywood this movie will show the hardship at the start, then the unity at the end with everyone, black and white, screaming USA! USA! at the end because USA saved the world.

Again!:D

Unlike you, I'm looking forward to this movie and any others that involve aviation.

To the OP, thanks for sharing.

Looking forward to seeing this film, luckily I've met a couple of Tuskeegee Airmen at Airshows since I moved over to the USA. Along with the Windtalkers of WW11 they were the forgotten hero's of WW11, as the years go on we will loose these people and their heritage. There will always be racism through out this world, it's not right but it's there. These people endured great hardship but came shining through, let's not make political statements just be thankful they served us when we needed them. And if anyone wants to ask yes I am in a mixed race marriage, my Wife is Hispanic and I'm White but all of us still bleed red when injured.

Dammit, website ate my post. Here goes again:

Wild Weasel, I wish you would not cherry-pick my quotes so as to put words in my mouth.

First, the easy answer: regarding the film "looking CG", what I mean is "visually obvious that this is unrealistic CG animation", as opposed to "CG animation utilized to produce a realistic rendition of a scene which is too expensive, dangerous, or impractical to produce in live action". The problem is that Hollywood has engaged in something of an arms race with CGI, where the goal appears to be to use CGI to produce the most implausible "wow" moment possible. I would rather they viewed CGI as simply another method of filming a scene, instead of a weapon in a constantly escalating eye candy war, which just ends up with "blockbusters" like "Transformers": heavy on the eye candy, very light on plot and depth. But I appreciate your mastery of the blindingly obvious (at least, I assume it was sarcasm).

Now, then, on to the heavy stuff:

My issue is not that I do not think the Tuskeegee Airmen were capable aviators. My issue is that lately it seems that in the US, recognition and commemoration is contingent upon your inclusion in an ethnic, racial, or religious minority group.

I fully acknowledge the Tuskeegee Airmen were very capable aviators. I even acknowledge that they were driven by a very particular motivation that led them to take some extraordinary actions. However, I would contend that it's fallacious (and racist, in a "politically correct" way) to imply they were inherently superior to their fellow white aviators, and that's my issue with the way these films always seem to be posited.

I fully acknowledge that there was racism in the US military in the past. I fully acknowledge that this was a bad thing. The issue I have is this: I do not believe the correct route to racial equality is to continue creating films that aggrandize one race or another. I do not seek to deny that the racial discrimination is a true part of history; rather, my issue is with the way it has been, and will doubtlessly again be presented- namely, aggrandizing one race whilst demonizing another (in this case, blacks and whites, respectively). This doesn't help racial matters any, it instead provides a racially-polarizing rallying point to the order of "see, proof we're better than you". That's racist no matter which side is making the claim.

So let's play make-believe for a minute. Let's assume that someone decides to make a historical movie about the Black Panthers, or the Moor invasion of Spain, or the Ottoman's enslavement of the Balkan states. They accurately portray historical events, but portray the white peoples as brave saviors fighting for freedom against oppressive black overlords. Would this film generate controversy? Would it be lambasted as racist? Of course it would. Would it BE racist? Of course it would. Even if it was historically accurate.

Now, as to "Memphis Belle" and "Battle of Britain"; no, they are not racist for belittling black pilots. They simply have no black pilots. Which is, overall, representative of WW2, good bad or indifferent. It's not that I think the various Tuskegee Airmen films go out of their way to insult the white pilots; the issue is that in the process of aggrandizing the Redtails' combat record to near mythic proportions, they implicitly state the white pilots were incapable of matching their record. I suspect that if one did some research, they could find a white fighter group that also entered late in the war and finished the war with a comparable combat record- but the impression given by these films is that white officers were generally racist pigs, and white pilots apathetic or incompetent in comparison to the Tuskeegee Airmen. The Tuskeegee Airmen films/shows/books make a point of highlighting a racial divide. In fact, it's wholly the premise of this film. Highlighting differences isn't the way to promote racial equality. Emphasizing racial equality is the way to promote racial equality. Which is why I again say that a film about the earliest integrated units, with DISPARATE races fighting side-by-side, all shown to be equal- as they in fact were and are, would be an equally compelling and less divisive film. Instead of giving an opportunity for one race or another to point to some legend and say "see, that proves we're better", it would show that "yes, we ARE stronger together". And there's no reason that can't make equally compelling film. No, I don't see any need to try to "hide from history", as you seem to imply is my motive; on the contrary, I just think the Tuskeegee Airmen have frankly been talked to death.

The fact that there are so many prominent works (film, literature, television specials, etc, etc) praising the Tuskegee Airmen, in comparison to the works about any white fighter group, is disproportional: the Tuskeegee airmen account for 450 pilots out of some... what, 40,000 USAAF fighter pilots in WWII? (admitably, a very rough estimate based primarily on US fighter production... but the estimate is likely on the low side, as it does not account for the fact there was almost certainly more pilots in service than aircraft, and doesn't account for bomber crews whatsoever). Almost every American has heard tales of the Redtails' exploits; I don't think it's exactly critical that we "expose the ugly truth of America's past"; we have all already been taught over and over that there were terrible things done in the past. We already well know the Tuskeegee Airmen. but most Americans would be hard pressed to name one white fighter group, squadron, or pilot. If asked, I very much doubt the average American knows of Richard Bong, Bud Anderson, Eddie Rickenbacker (to mix in some WW1), or even Chuck Yeager. They may PERHAPS know "Pappy" Boyington, courtesy the short-lived television production.

Speaking of "Pappy" Boyington, that is another good example of the manner of politically correct racism that bothers me so: a couple years back, my alma mater, the University of Washington, decided to spend some funds on a memorial for a famous UW graduate. On of the individuals proposed by a student was "Pappy" Boyington, a 1934 UW graduate. The student senate rejected his nomination on the grounds that they didn't think it was appropriate to honor a "rich white murderer" (by which I think they meant it's not appropriate to honor a Medal of Honor and Navy Cross recipient who languished in a Japanese POW camp for almost two years as a result of defending their freedoms). Instead- as I have heard it; I have not yet seen the new memorial- it was decided to erect a memorial to native American "civil rights activist" Ward Churchill, a man who advocates an aggressive (read: violent) approach to civil rights issues, who claims the US is to blame for 9/11, has publicly equated the financial workers at the World Trade Center to Adolf Eichmann, and who has been investigated for seven (and found guilty of two) counts of "serious, repeated, and deliberate research misconduct". But since it is Politically Correct to celebrate minority civil rights activists, but not not white Soldiers, there is no Pappy Boyington memorial at UW. See http://americanintelligence.us/index.php?/blog/1/entry-17785-patriots-blog/ and http://www.wnd.com/2006/02/34799/

Oh... I should mention, Pappy Boyington was part Sioux, not a "rich white man". So much for political correctness, eh?

Wild Weasel: And *I* would rather know the ugly truth, and learn about all the OTHER truths out there, than be forcefed the "ugly truth" fifteen times over. Yes, it's important for people to learn about the Tuskeegee Airmen. It is, I would contend, EQUALLY IMPORTANT to learn about all the other brave aviators, soldiers, sailors, and marines who fought in WW2. But we don't have any recent movies about the 56th fighter group, do we? Or about the bomber crews who incurred such devastating losses. Why should we make ANOTHER movie about the Tuskeegee Airmen, when there are so many other groups that have NEVER had a movie made about them? What about VT-6 and VT-8 and their valiant attack on the Japanese fleet at Midway- an attack they knew would be suicidal? The best they've managed is a bit of a footnote appearance in the film "Midway".

To borrow from the site rules, I would like to tell Hollywood "you must spread some rep around before you can rep this squadron again"

How many WWII films have been made to date, and how many were centered on minorities? I can only think of two: This and Wind Talkers. I think it's fair that every now and then, someone cared enough to put them on pedal-stools. I'm sure it was tough getting into flight school then as it does now, but I think being blacks and trying to get into flight school, then and now, add a new dimension to the plot. It's just human nature that we want to root for an underdog. Ward Cleaver and his lily white friends going to flight school where practically no one wants to spit in their faces and call them honky before lynching them would be interesting to a hand full of people.

I think it’s fascinating that some blacks living in that time had the will, and courage to do something like this. So, out of those 40,000 thousand pilots you mentioned, a hand full of them had to go through hell and back in personal and professional lives to achieve a goal which is to fight for a nation where most people despised them is truly amazing. Personally, I think Bernard Hopkins’ life is a hell of a lot more interesting than Micky Ward, but Ward got a movie made for him, so now it’s even.

As for Hollywood, if you see Michael Bay on the poster then the explosions are the plot, dialog and drama. C’mon, man, you don’t go see Transformers to be thick in twisted plots and knee deep in mind numbing dialogs. :D

Ok.

I just saw the trailer. Yeah. Lucas Films... I hope Lucas had nothing to do with dialog. The dialog between Padme and young Vedar almost had me walked out the theater. The CGI in Red tail isn't that bad, but you're right about the absent of gravity. If it's PG then I'll definitely take my daughter to see it.

Yeah, I just figure... it wasn't all THAT long ago since the last Tuskeegee Airmen movie came out, and it's not like the movie was bad and needed rehashing, I think. It would just be nice to see something NEW, a story we're not all already familiar with.

But then, that doesn't seem to be the way Hollywood does things these days; seems like everything is a retelling of some older movie, '80s cartoon, or comic book. Very little original coming out lately.

Oh.... Wind Talkers. Ugh. I guess I'll have to admit some hypocrisy; I dislike that one simply because it focused too LITTLE on the actual Windtalkers. I had the same issue with it that I did with Last Samurai: it ostensibly told the story of a group of people, but for some reason had to do so through a proxy (Nicholas Cage and Tom Cruise, respectively). If you want to tell the story of a group's contributions, tell THE STORY, don't throw in some token character just to identify with the audience. Like I said, perhaps hypocritical to my previous posts, but I saw some distinct differences in the way Wind Talkers was presented... and more than anything, Wind Talkers was something new, that most people hadn't heard about. I guess the difference is I didn't see as much of the "us versus them" subplot in Wind Talkers... I just wish it'd stayed closer to the subject matter.

I don't think I'd be nearly so incensed about Redtails, if it weren't for the fact that basically the last major WW2 fighter pilot movie (well, US, anyway) was ALREADY about the Tuskeegee Airmen. I just wish Hollywood would share the love with some of the other groups out there. I mean, since the 1980s, you have Memphis Belle in 1990, Tuskeegee Airmen in 1995, Pearl Harbor in 2001 (though that one was so atrocious I don't know it should count!) and... Red Tails. That's it. Half of the WW2 aviation films made in the US since 1980 are about the Tuskeegee Airmen. Half!

*edit* while looking at the list of WW2 movies on Wikipedia, it struck me that it's not just the aviation movies where one sees this! Look at US movies about WW2 ground forces since 1980: Big Red 1, 1980. Sahara, 1995. Saving Private Ryan, 1998. Thin Red Line, also 1998. When Trumpets Fade, ALSO 1998 (apparently this was the year of US WW2 infantry movies?). Band of Brothers, 2001 (miniseries, not movie, but still counts). Windtalkers, 2001. Only the Brave, 2005. The Great Raid, 2005. Flags of Our Fathers, 2006. Miracle at St Anna, 2008. Everyman's War, 2009. The Pacific, 2010. Little Iron Men, 2011. So, since 1980; 14 US-made films about ground combat in WW2. Of these, Windtalkers is about Navajo code talkers, both Only the Brave and Little Iron Men are about the Japanese-American 442d RCT, and Miracle at St Anna is a wholly fictional account, where 3 black soldiers and 1 Puerto Rican bravely stand up against a nazi atrocity- it even has the prerequisite evil racist white officer abandoning them to die. So, 4 of 14 US made films about WW2 ground combat are... about the small proportion of combat units composed of ethnic or racial minorities. Perhaps more representative than the films about WW2 aviation, but still hardly representative, and seem to me a symptom of the political correctness so rampant in the US today. (a caveat: I may have missed films; this was not out of an attempt to manipulate statistics, but simply because I just pulled the wikipedia 'list of WW2 films' instead of spending the time on in-depth study)

I will never understand this fixation. Bad things happened in the past. It is important not to repeat these bad things. It's probably not neccesary (and is honestly a little contrite) for a generation that wasn't even alive at the time the offenses were committed to attempt to repent for actions by their forefathers by making film after film about the matter. I think the brilliant pre-battle speech in Kingdom of Heaven about sums it up: "None of us took this city from Muslims. No Muslim of the great army now coming against us was born when this city was lost. We fight over an offence we did not give, against those who were not alive to be offended." Much the same; the current generation is struggling to come to terms with offenses they did not commit (well, ok, there's still been racist offenses in the current generation, but I'm referring to the institutionalized racism prior to the 1960s), and the brand of "equality" driven into their head in school leads to a society-wide feeling of a crushing need for atonement; ironically, that has kept the race issue alive by continually emphasizing our differences. I guess it's not good enough to just admit we're all human?

Totally aside from aviation, I really wish they'd do a film on the US pacific submarine fleet in WW2; those guys were REALLY unsung heros. All The mortality rate was unbelievable- and yet all the sailors volunteers. Makes one wonder if they realized when they signed up, just how dangerous it was. Just watched a documentary on the USS Lagarto, and it made me realize I'd really never really seen any (theatrical) films on the subject.

Oh! Since I posted my thoughts here full in the expectation that I will get blasted with accusations of racism, I feel I should "redeem myself" with a couple offerings of what I thought were truly GOOD works covering the subject of war and racism.

So, on the subject of war and racism... if you want some REALLY insightful reading (and some truly frightful insight to the horrors humans are capable of when they allow themselves to differentiate races), I humbly suggest you check out the following books:

War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War (accounts the rampant racism on part of both the US and Japan)

Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland (this one frankly horrified me; it outlined the progression of a group of middle-aged Germans from ordinary farmers and craftsmen to the executors of the Holocaust in such a believable way that really puts in perspective how an otherwise normal person can be manipulated into a mass murderer. Truly chilling stuff; the descriptions of the first few executions in particular: the policemen tried to justify themselves/ make the murder more palatable by trying to be 'humane' by consulting a doctor to determine where to shoot so as to result in the swiftest, most painless death- as though that lessened the crime? )

Anyhow, I think these two are of value for their insight into HOW and WHY people end up committing these crimes. Be warned, though: they are thoroughly uncomfortable reads, and you'll probably totally lose hope in the inherently good nature of humanity for weeks after.

What the heck happened to my post?

Can you cite some examples of those extremely disturbing horrors committed from the books? I rally want to read, but not sure if I have the stomach for this stuff these days.

Nah, don't worry about being accused of racism. I think we or at least I know where you're coming from. Everyone has a race or a group of people that he or she hate, and as long as you're not a complete bigot and want to go all white power then it's cool.

I'll say this, one of the reasons I stopped going to simhq was because I couldn't stand some of the bigots on that site. Don't believe me try mentioning rap music and see what happens. lol

Unfortunately I left most of my books stateside; I'm currently in Korea. The War Without Mercy book is much more... scholarly, in the way it reads, but has many good examples of the period propaganda and vignettes of incidents from both sides of the conflict.

Going from memory, I doubt I could do either justice. I do recall the German policemen (actually, I think they were locally raised from Polish population; it's been a while since I read it) being really disturbed when they received their first order to conduct a mass execution... the officer offered to let any who wanted out leave, and the general opinion was "we don't want to do this, but orders are orders". What was striking was that they went through all the effort to plan how to make it "humane". I recall mention of things like consulting with a doctor for the quickest way, using a bayonet placed at the back of the neck as an "aiming guide" to ensure a hit resulting in instant death, and some manner of organization of the order in which family members were killed and keeping the waiting folks out of hearing range to make it less "emotionally stressfull" on the people being executed. The mere fact that they could calmly plan those kind of details in that situation is, well, really disturbing.

Even worse was the description of how, after going through this routine a few times, the executions no longer horrified the policemen, and they saw the whole ordeal as a NUISANCE. By that point, the people they were executing were just things to them, and any pretense of being humane was gone- the victims were simply marched to the woods, made to dig their own graves, and then haphazardly machinegunned. There were a number of descriptions how the executors didn't bother to aim anymore, and many of the victims were only wounded by the initial shots, to be perhaps finished off with a burst from an SMG sprayed around the mass grave- or even simply buried alive.

But I really can't do the book justice; you'd have to just read it... the description of the whole process transforming people from run of the mill workers into dispassionate killers is really powerful and a good cautionary tale. I think it's important to understand that evil men aren't just born evil (well, not all of them... granted, there are some that are simply psychologically damaged), they are conditioned to be evil. Germans aren't genetically predisposed to hate Jews, or to be evil, they were conditioned to. Basically, in the right (well, more like wrong) situation, ANY group of people could be made to behave as the nazis. That's a scary thought.

And as far as racism goes, I wouldn't be so presumptious as to say I have none, but I generally like to consider myself fairly evenhanded as such things go; there's really no ethnic group I hate per se. I just hate the notion that there is "good" and "bad" racism; that "pro" racial statements about minority races are somehow good, while "anti" statements about minorities (or, by extension, "pro" statements about majority races) are bad. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one kind of racism, and it's all bad. ANY attempt to state that races are qualitatively different (beyond some truly minute and fairly physiologically insignificant cosmetic differences) is kind of silly.

I *do* dislike the "thug culture" often associated with the young US black community, but let's be honest here: the culture, and the problems that stem from it, are the result of the socio-economic situation disadvantaged inner city black youth find themselves in. Were any other ethnic or racial group put in the same situation, I would expect a very similar outcome. And in all fairness, I hate the (at least where I'm from) predominately white raver culture just as much, and for fairly similar reasons (IE, the culture promotes illegal activity by claiming it as "cool"). I'm an equal opportunity hater? I should clarify: I don't really give a whit about the MUSIC, some of it is even pretty catchy- no, I'm talking about the subculture. I dislike any subculture that promotes outright criminal activity (particularly for personal gain!), don't care if it's the current "rap culture", white supremacists, quasireligious cults, conspiracy theorists, or soccer hooligans. I don't hate Arabs, I hate terrorists. Some terrorists are Arabs. Some Arabs are terrorists. Most Arabs are not terrorists. ... I feel like this is an inadequate explanation of my feelings on the differentiation between race and culture/ ideology... but I hope you understand what I mean.

That said, some of my best NCOs have been black sergeants (including my current one, who's a great guy, and who- perhaps ironically- enjoys engaging in exactly this manner of political/ academic discourse just as much as I. I've had a similar discussion as this with him before, as it happens). I've only ever put two soldiers up for bronze stars (both for the same action); one was a meek, lanky white kid from the midwest, the other a rather outspoken inner-city new york black man (kid doesn't seem appropriate; he was about my age; joined late). Incidentally, the two were damn near inseperable, which was always hilarious since they were such diametric opposites. Still wish I had the both of them in my current unit; they were both excellent soldiers (and I hope they stayed in; the black fellow in particular was a natural leader. Would make a good platoon sergeant someday). I've also had some excellent soldiers who would probably be described by most Americans as "total hillbillies"; about as stereotypical white southerner as you get; but still wonderful guys. And if by any chance Treece is reading this; dude, you need to get back in college; you're way too smart to not have a degree!

So, as you can perhaps tell, I have very strong feelings about the notion of differentiating people by race, good or bad. There's just so much better things on which to base your opinion of someone!

...but I still hate the rap and/or "thug life" culture. And that's a totally different story from hating blacks. There's plenty of white kids that buy into that culture, and I think they're idiots too.

And I have TOTALLY highjacked this thread, so I'm gonna shut my gob now.

The only truly multiracial Military Force, I won't use Army simply because I don't want to get into the semantics of the word is the Legion Etrangere. With an almost 200 year history starting back in 1831.

During my time served I saw one of the first Japanese Legionnaire's join my Regiment and a lot of Eastern Europeans started to join in the early to mid 90's. I wont go into the religious side of things but I will say there was a lot of prejudice at the start of their time served but after their initial first year (give or take) it seemed a greater need was the camaraderie and reliance of the Legionnaire in the next vehicle, fox hole etc etc. Your life depended on there's and vica versa. I know of at least 10 or so Legionnaires who if they were still in their home countries would most likely be fighting against each other (in the current political world situation), but the Legion has pulled them together into a cohesive unit.

When I joined and was at my base camp going through all the pre selection process one of the questions was "are you prejudice" my smarta$$ answer was "Yes against idiots", I received a slap for that and was asked again, being told to think very hard about my answer, I finally answered yes to a degree and was told by the Sergent Chef if I had answered no then I would be on a bus going home.

When I finished my time The Legion had 100 / 102 nationalities which had served them.

My point to all this ........

Discrimination comes in a whole cr@p load of forms, from not sitting next to ( .....fill in blanks) because of nationality to not eating a certain brand of cereal because (I / you) don't like it.

Life is short enough as it is, so let's get on with it while we can.

Since joining this forum I've "spoken" via postings etc to a lot of nationalities which had it not been for the forum I would never have met and maybe would have been prejudice against them as a country simply because of lack of knowledge.

To quote Mark Twain:

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.

- Innocents Abroad

well said, Brum!

I just saw the trailer. Yeah. Lucas Films... I hope Lucas had nothing to do with dialog. The dialog between Padme and young Vedar almost had me walked out the theater. The CGI in Red tail isn't that bad, but you're right about the absent of gravity. If it's PG then I'll definitely take my daughter to see it.

Hopefully he was just the producer and helped finance it and none of his "great" ideas got put into use. Although it is incredibly depressing for there to be dubstep music in a WW2 movie trailer...

To quote Mark Twain:

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.

- Innocents Abroad[/i][/b]

:thumbup:

Looks like a very pretty movie, but frankly the flight sequences just LOOKED CG to me. Aircraft rolled/turned/moved too fast (which looks more exciting, but is still wrong on a physics level), too much flashy camera work, and too much Hollywood explosion

Thats bc it is a hollywood movie and not a documentary! :)

I can ensure you that the airplane animation happened with a lot passion to aviation and actually about 600 air battle shots were tuned/supervised by a member of this community! :pilotfly:

And I know he would have loved to go more realistic/documentary style but George Lucas certainly doesn't pay for that :)

You can basically play with your Ipad between the air battles but just for those its worth to watch the movie.

You also learn how to sink destroyers just with guns, hehe

i hope this trend ends. these movies are way too flashy and wanting to be entertaining. they try too hard to be a simpleminded spectacle and not hard enough to engage you on any deeper level.

even as a kid i started growing tired of them.

now before you say i'm prejudging the film, i'm not, i'm simple responding to the aesthetics, which are readily apparent from the trailer and the plot.

this looks like tuskegee airmen: michael bay edition.

Well, I don´t know if that is fiction in the movie or based on a real happening, but it is possible.

The light destroyers were not made of more than a thin tin can steel and 0.5cal APs should penetrate the hull easily. If you hit a boiler, which is under full pressure and this boiler ruptures, the expending steam should tear the vessel apart. As far as I know german planes over the Channel dived from the top and aimed for the funnel with their guns knowing that somewhere near the funnel the boilers are located. Well, sometimes they were successful.

had to swtich it off after a P51 blew up an entire destroyer with 2 50Cal gun run passess ........ jesus

Very little top armor, shells from above into the powder magazine... YEEEHAAAAAH! ;)

Unsure about the historical accuracy of the event, but it certainly is possible. This is something you _could_ theoretically do with a single .50 cal shell - if you are luckier than the devil. Seen references (pre-dating the film) to the event, but never something from solid sources. Haven't exactly spent my life searching for good sources either though.

Check out the last 10-15 seconds of this one:

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