DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

[QuiGon]

so a little question I hope you can answer, can you tell us if the beta will begin early, middle or late in December ? :)

 

Comment #2206 on the previous page ;)

[Harke]

Comment #2206 on the previous page ;)

 

thank you :)

[Boss86005]

The damage effects on the previous page look great.

[Zeus67]

Been doing close air combat ( guns only, no missiles) against a Mig-29A. I need a lot of practice. You can kill a lot of energy in seconds. I went from 450 KIAS to 158 KIAS in 20 seconds trying to turn under him.

 

The Mig-29A is a tough opponent for guns only dogfights. But they are fun fights.

 

These combats have proved to us that indeed the EFM is now in Beta stage and can be released with the aircraft on Open Beta.

 

PS: The RWR worked beautifully. It always told me that the bastard had me locked on his radar.

[Corrigan]

Excited to hear it! Since I guess my question was missed, I'll ask it again: will be still be able to "pre-purchase" for the reduced price after the beta is released? Or will it sell for its full price then?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Corrigan

[Hummingbird]

Has the odd momentumless rolling behavior of EFM we saw in a video been corrected?

[shagrat]

These combats have proved to us that indeed the EFM is now in Beta stage and can be released with the aircraft on Open Beta.

 

You mean we will get an Open beta release with DCS 2.0, maybe? :notworthy:

[OnlyforDCS]

Been doing close air combat ( guns only, no missiles) against a Mig-29A. I need a lot of practice. You can kill a lot of energy in seconds. I went from 450 KIAS to 158 KIAS in 20 seconds trying to turn under him.

 

The Mig-29A is a tough opponent for guns only dogfights. But they are fun fights.

 

These combats have proved to us that indeed the EFM is now in Beta stage and can be released with the aircraft on Open Beta.

 

PS: The RWR worked beautifully. It always told me that the bastard had me locked on his radar.

 

This is excellent news!! This means I can go ahead and pre-order a nice little Christmas present for myself. The inclusion of the EFM in the initial release was the one definite thing stopping me from buying.

 

I cannot stress enough how much I despise SFM, and the feeling of canned flight. The one thing that DCS does better than any other simulator out there are the flight models. This is why Im here and not anywhere else.

[PiedDroit]

You (1) roll to desired attitude then (2) pitch into the desired turn not 1 and 2 at the same time.

What about using the rudder to roll a bit while pitching? Is it a energy killer as well?

[OnlyforDCS]

CptSmiley and Zeus, can I direct you to this thread:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2562425

 

There is a lot of concern with us force feedback users how the plane will fly with our sticks and how this will be solved, as you have stated in Wag's last Q&A that force feedback will not be supported initially.

[jojo]

What about using the rudder to roll a bit while pitching? Is it a energy killer as well?

 

Not much of help here. FBW are supposed to maintain near 0 side slip to prevent spin.

For those who know Falcon 4 it's the same...

 

It's a kind of auto rudder...you can see that on some videos. When the aircraft is shot from the front, and he makes a break at low speed/ high AoA you see massive rudder input.

 

The issue at high AoA is that you're underperforming in roll rate. So as said it's more efficient to do pitch & roll separately.

But this is normal behavior for any fighter. MiG 29G flight manual states that if you put roll input above 15deg AoA you risk control departure so you have to use rudder to roll.

In M-2000C the FBW protect you from that.

Edited November 23, 2015 by jojo

[GGTharos]

You can, but keep in mind that in a real aircraft you feel what the aircraft does.

 

Generally you can put in rudder to induce roll at high AoAs, where ailerons are traditionally less effective. But at the same time, your directional stability is also low, so your rudder input has to be well controlled.

 

Like everyone has stated, bank then pitch - try to not blend, or not blend axis very much. This all changes as you move through various flight envelopes - for example, 'low and slow' can see you end up in maneuvers where use of rudder is very necessary, but these are edge cases where you make your real money as a pilot IMHO :)

In theory, you need to make your money before you hit that point, and just win the merge.

 

What about using the rudder to roll a bit while pitching? Is it a energy killer as well?

[Zeus67]

CptSmiley and Zeus, can I direct you to this thread:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2562425

 

There is a lot of concern with us force feedback users how the plane will fly with our sticks and how this will be solved, as you have stated in Wag's last Q&A that force feedback will not be supported initially.

 

We want to provide support for the force feedback uses from the start but there are so many devices that we must have ready for open beta that force feedback was pushed to the end of the list. We will try to provide support ASAP, but it won't be available on open beta release.

 

There will be periodic updates to the beta version and in one of those updates you will have the support you want. I cannot promise more than that, except that you won't need to wait for full release.

[Einherjer]

One question - do you plan to bind the hotas keys for hardware systems (like the warthog) as default?

[OnlyforDCS]

Thanks for the response, the dedication to the community from Razbam is truly phenomenal. Can't ask for more. Definitely buying myself an early french Christmas present, EFM is in initial release, and FFB support incoming. :thumbup:

[dartuil]

So if i turn to much i loose speed but get speed quick when i stop turning?

To prevent that i have to roll and pitch and not roll+pitch?

[Zeus67]

So if i turn to much i loose speed but get speed quick when i stop turning?

To prevent that i have to roll and pitch and not roll+pitch?

 

Yes, the aircraft gains speed as fast as it loses it, but when you are dancing with a Mig-29 you must really be aware where he is, otherwise he will nail you when you are trying to gain some energy back.

 

In other words: do not lose energy.

[GGTharos]

Using roll and pitch separately takes care of a bunch of issues that most vPilots are not aware of - the includes losing MORE energy, as well as putting your plane into a region of lower directional stability.

 

However, roll and then pitch does not prevent you from losing speed - control how hard you pull the stick instead. Like Zeus said, keep an eye on your bandit and maneuver with respect to him: Almost nothing else matters, at least at the beginner level.

 

So if i turn to much i loose speed but get speed quick when i stop turning?

To prevent that i have to roll and pitch and not roll+pitch?

[jojo]

So if i turn to much i loose speed but get speed quick when i stop turning?

To prevent that i have to roll and pitch and not roll+pitch?

 

Just a little correction on what has been said:

Mirage 2000 FBW makes control departure very unlikely, so the main reason to dissociate pitch & roll is to have max roll rate available.

[PiedDroit]

You can, but keep in mind that in a real aircraft you feel what the aircraft does.

 

Generally you can put in rudder to induce roll at high AoAs, where ailerons are traditionally less effective. But at the same time, your directional stability is also low, so your rudder input has to be well controlled.

 

Like everyone has stated, bank then pitch - try to not blend, or not blend axis very much. This all changes as you move through various flight envelopes - for example, 'low and slow' can see you end up in maneuvers where use of rudder is very necessary, but these are edge cases where you make your real money as a pilot IMHO :)

In theory, you need to make your money before you hit that point, and just win the merge.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I was thinking about moderate speed, rolling scissor situations.

I guess I'll just try until I find what works best :D

[dartuil]

Thank you buddies!!

I'll try all that in december in NTTR!!! :D

[Hummingbird]

Hey Hummingbird, absolutely. It was a combination of two things. One, see my previous post about the modeling of servodynamics was not done correctly. It was causing the control surfaces to move faster than it physically would be able to in real life, and also oscillating (imperceptibly but violently). Now the actuator dynamics match real life behavior.

 

The second thing was a bigger issue. I was not modeling internal fuel effects on inertia which took a little more time to fix, but once the change was made you definitely feel a difference when flying full fuel vs near empty.

 

The combination of those two fixes really took care of the roll behavior. The M2000C still rolls on a dime and is very snappy with roll commands (see youtube videos of solo M2000C performance and other HUD youtube videos). One of the biggest advantages this guy has is his roll rate performance compared to other jets.

 

There are countess other fixes we've made since the video specifically mentioned by the community.

 

As Zues67 mentioned, the idea is not to out turn a Mig-29 or an Su-27, as that will kill your energy (and you). What strategy I like is to use your healthy roll advantage to alter your turn vector faster than they can (scissor roll) once they have committed to a turn. You also must separate roll and pitch commands (which is hard to get used to) combining them is a huge energy killer for the delta wing. You (1) roll to desired attitude then (2) pitch into the desired turn not 1 and 2 at the same time.

 

We were passing around track files comparing each others strategies last night, it was quite fun as it really takes thought and planning when going up against a Mig-29 or Su-27 and they both need different tactics on them.

 

Excellent, thanks! Really looking forward to this aircraft :pilotfly:

[dartuil]

Hello,

Will we get that helmet?

In a update one day?

[super_baloo]

Even better: GC 1/2 Helmets

 

 

 

[jojo]

It's already this helmet, but with older O² mask...