BVR Tactics

[karambiatos]

 

This is gonna stop working once the game is not about playing quake in a 100nm environment.

 

sooo.... never?

[TAW_Blaze]

sooo.... never?

 

It's down to map design and stability which is improving right now.. you can also make them waste their ETs and they can't carry many of them :)

[Pilotasso]

AMRAAM is faster than ET, if the Eagle pilot is smart he'll reduce altitude the closer he gets, he'll know where to put his radar and find you trying to notch. Radar off to bait you and then have the advantage of missile speed whilst sending your ET either into the ground of flared till dead. There is no win win in 1v1, these situations boil down to skill and luck. Give the Eagle a buddy and you're toast.

 

Its not that linear, because by lowering altitude the eagle pilot may infact be driving his plane into his opponent field of view risking a return shot and ending in mutual death (really doesn't matter which missile is faster at that range). Worse, if he spend saltitude before needing the potential energy his options will be reduced from the moment of the merge on.

 

Sometimes I just prefer to drop only after he passes only to extend rapidly, specially if his buddies are suspected nearby.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Pilotasso

[winchesterdelta1]

I guess that's because he doesn't see you and he's not keeping you defensive. Or maybe you thought R-77's are harder to defeat that 120's?

 

4nm and out of notch = death by AMRAAM. :)

 

Congrats, you've got a trick that works for you, and that's how it's done.

 

That is not my experience. Atleast not when he is running away from you. Multiple times i have shot half my armament around 3.6NM and still miss them.

My conditions when firing where pretty good "i think". I started with altitude advantage and speed advantage. from the start of the engagement with them flying towards me. But they just simply dismissed my kill. How i don't know. They pull a simple maneuvre without even losing speed and dispense some chaff. After 4 AMRAAM's i was still playing catch up with him only to be killed after a 8 minute chase by his buddy (maybe not smart to follow him that long). The first missile was shot at 8.6NM and 4 of them where shot at 4nm and below, flat terrain and no where to hide. After my first shot around 7 to 8Nm they turn around and simply run away. While i barely can keep up. And i'm comming Head On with almost max speed. I try to atleast force him to lose some speed with evasive maneuvring by firing some missiles at the moment he was fully turned so his speed was at his lowest. But again, some chaff and minimal maneuvring made them escape. It doesn't matter if i'm engaging SU's or F-15's. The only thing that matters is that the guy is from 51st or 104th or some other elite v pilot like Oberst Zeisig, Pilotasso or Blaze. But with Blaze in most cases you don't even come that close to Blaze. He kills you or he bugs out to get in a better firing position later.

Right now i'm pretty confused and try to see what i do wrong (probably alot). I know alot of times it's my own faulth that i get shot down. But i had so many cases that i actually had all the advantages but they could still escape my AMRAAM even from super close distances. But i never have this issue when flying the SU's and MIG's. They alway's hit at these distance (4Nm and below) no matter what maneuvre they pull. Unless i'm being stupid and fire the missile at a really sharp angle or in a sharp turn.

Edited February 26, 2014 by winchesterdelta1

[Pyroflash]

it's probably just that the other guy is in a better position than you thought, or your parameters were off. A lot of times something can look really good, but isn't.

[Oberst Zeisig]

Thanks for the elite pilot ..... face ist going red ....

[TAW_Blaze]

That is not my experience. Atleast not when he is running away from you. Multiple times i have shot half my armament around 3.6NM and still miss them.

My conditions when firing where pretty good "i think". I started with altitude advantage and speed advantage. from the start of the engagement with them flying towards me. But they just simply dismissed my kill. How i don't know. They pull a simple maneuvre without even losing speed and dispense some chaff. After 4 AMRAAM's i was still playing catch up with him only to be killed after a 8 minute chase by his buddy (maybe not smart to follow him that long). The first missile was shot at 8.6NM and 4 of them where shot at 4nm and below, flat terrain and no where to hide. After my first shot around 7 to 8Nm they turn around and simply run away. While i barely can keep up. And i'm comming Head On with almost max speed. I try to atleast force him to lose some speed with evasive maneuvring by firing some missiles at the moment he was fully turned so his speed was at his lowest. But again, some chaff and minimal maneuvring made them escape. It doesn't matter if i'm engaging SU's or F-15's. The only thing that matters is that the guy is from 51st or 104th or some other elite v pilot like Oberst Zeisig, Pilotasso or Blaze. But with Blaze in most cases you don't even come that close to Blaze. He kills you or he bugs out to get in a better firing position later.

Right now i'm pretty confused and try to see what i do wrong (probably alot). I know alot of times it's my own faulth that i get shot down. But i had so many cases that i actually had all the advantages but they could still escape my AMRAAM even from super close distances. But i never have this issue when flying the SU's and MIG's. They alway's hit at these distance (4Nm and below) no matter what maneuvre they pull. Unless i'm being stupid and fire the missile at a really sharp angle or in a sharp turn.

 

Thanks, that really made me laugh. It's the perspective I guess, compared to the other 104th guys I'm a target dummy. :D

 

Haven't got the time right now, in university, but I'll write a longer post when I get home.

[Oberst Zeisig]

That is not my experience. Atleast not when he is running away from you. Multiple times i have shot half my armament around 3.6NM and still miss them.

My conditions when firing where pretty good "i think". I started with altitude advantage and speed advantage. from the start of the engagement with them flying towards me. But they just simply dismissed my kill. How i don't know. They pull a simple maneuvre without even losing speed and dispense some chaff. After 4 AMRAAM's i was still playing catch up with him only to be killed after a 8 minute chase by his buddy (maybe not smart to follow him that long). The first missile was shot at 8.6NM and 4 of them where shot at 4nm and below, flat terrain and no where to hide. After my first shot around 7 to 8Nm they turn around and simply run away. While i barely can keep up. And i'm comming Head On with almost max speed. I try to atleast force him to lose some speed with evasive maneuvring by firing some missiles at the moment he was fully turned so his speed was at his lowest. But again, some chaff and minimal maneuvring made them escape. It doesn't matter if i'm engaging SU's or F-15's. The only thing that matters is that the guy is from 51st or 104th or some other elite v pilot like Oberst Zeisig, Pilotasso or Blaze. But with Blaze in most cases you don't even come that close to Blaze. He kills you or he bugs out to get in a better firing position later.

Right now i'm pretty confused and try to see what i do wrong (probably alot). I know alot of times it's my own faulth that i get shot down. But i had so many cases that i actually had all the advantages but they could still escape my AMRAAM even from super close distances. But i never have this issue when flying the SU's and MIG's. They alway's hit at these distance (4Nm and below) no matter what maneuvre they pull. Unless i'm being stupid and fire the missile at a really sharp angle or in a sharp turn.

 

Actually missiles are WIP as You know and maybe when its done and we got the over-AMRAAM there are only F-15 guys flying around. As it ist now I would say You can evade an 120Cs below 10nm, I'd guess under 6nm You need terrain in addition. You can't simply get near to MIG or SU to this distance without high risk, so I think it's the right timed pushing and extending until You get to this firing position without getting too close. The 104th guys can advise You better with this. But its a risky play, if You lose me in doing this and handling Your radar for too long I can get around You and its one out of the 9 of 10 kills I do where the Eagle driver never knew what hit him and missile dynamics dont play a role at all.

Sure players like Maverick or Spade are hard to handle with this due to their good trained coordination. But even when they are in a supreme postition I get them sometimes both in a mutual kill. :P

[winchesterdelta1]

I'm flying 2000 meters above him and flying 150nm faster shooting a AMRAAM that go's mach 2+ if i'm correct. Only thing in his advantage is that he is running from me. And maybe that he is flying 200 meters above ground. They dispense some chaff and barely maneuvre and it alway's misses. And about chaff dispensing i'm not even sure. This all between 8 and 3.6nm

Edited February 26, 2014 by winchesterdelta1

[Oberst Zeisig]

AMRAAM should go mach4+, but im not sure if that applies to low altitude (as 2000m). However an 8nm shot to a fleeing target with full AB takes some time to reach the target even at mach4, enought time that maneuvers let the missile bleed energy but it will still reach You kinematically if you not use another evasion tactic such es notch or ground in addition. A shot at 3.6nm is definetly not evadable You can only hide behind terrain. Look if Your missiles hits the ground then You know its dead.

That's how its modeled now any many will say its not realistic. I don't know.

[winchesterdelta1]

The missile is not hitting the ground. It tracks the target. They do a simple maneuvre without losing speed or atleast in such a way i won't even get closer. I alway's hope they notch because than i can come close enough to fire a AIM-9. Sometimes i shoot a AIM-7 and even they have a higher chance of hitting the target against those pilots. And it happens on flat terrain or even above the sea. If they would hide behind terrain i can understand it misses. But i do think it has something to do with ground clutter. Because if this engagemt happens on higher altitude but the same conditions it hits 90% of the time. So now and then i fly the MIG-29 or SU-27/SU-33 and i'm able to do the same. And in most Head on situations against F-15's when flying Russian jets i can evade AMRAAM's all day long within 10nm when not fired in TWS mode I should make some tracks about it to show you guy's.

Right now i'm not even trying to make them go defensive by firing missiles when i'm not closer than 15nm and i know i'm fighting against somebody superior. Because they simply avoid them and keep going. They don't even notch. The only time those elite pilot notch is when they try to lose my radar lock when i aquired them further than 15nm so they can hide.

This all makes BVR really really hard when flying the F-15. At one point iw as so desparate i try'd a another tactic by flying angels 47 and dive on them when within 10nm. That seemed to help, untill Maverick and buddy's found out :)

Edited February 26, 2014 by winchesterdelta1

[*Rage*]

Anecdotally ground clutter has a not insignificant effect on missile tracking whether radar guided or heat seeking. I have not tested it systematically however. I have regularly watched volleys of missiles fly into the ground at very short ranges.

[SFAL]

I guess this is 1vs1 BVR...

 

i agree with Frostie that 2 Eagle with a stack formation scaning in a pre determined direction and altitude spread out is a close enough kill.... same goes for any ac btw.

 

The golden rule: one fighter is a dead fighter. Always fly with a wingman. Have him on coms with you.

120c are good but not god. Simple way of defeating them in a mig or su:

Even if you dont see him on radar/eos your rwr will tell you all. At 3/4 streght you are at max lunch range. Start beaming... at full minus 3 time to notch. If u are in stt lock expect the first bird in the very second. Keep an eye on the signal sternght. If you can return fire with ET or a 77. Turn away from amraam full ab and get altitude.put it on your 4 and after 4 sec(still hard manuvers) on your 8... if the signal strengt stops increaseing turn find target and adapt to the next....

 

this offcoruse is a lot mor complex and does not cover ECM ,terrain, datalink starting altitude.

 

Best is to find someone whom you can fly with and practice. Use the ac strenghts and keep in mind the weaknes.

[GGTharos]

It's the same for all radar missiles in the game, at low altitude 'accuracy' decreases. Which you'll know is wrong if you ever run into videos of 120's consistently hitting low-flying cruise missiles targets directly.

 

In essence the game is still punishing you for flying a fighter the way you should, and for what they've been built to do: Get altitude and speed.

 

Anecdotally ground clutter has a not insignificant effect on missile tracking whether radar guided or heat seeking. I have not tested it systematically however. I have regularly watched volleys of missiles fly into the ground at very short ranges.

[*Rage*]

While I agree overall, what you are seeing there is a form of publication bias. You'd hardly expect to see videos of 120's frequently missing slow non-manuevering targets uploaded.

[GGTharos]

Definitely not publication bias. Nor would I expect a new weapon to be out-performed (or have similar performance) by an old weapon - right now it's all 'meh it's all the same' :)

 

The bias here is a wishful thinking - the wishful thinking that dodging 120's should somehow be easy and you can easily fight back with technology that's decades older.

 

I'll put it in other words: It's actually quite a bit like saying that a vietnam era sparrow should be on part with an R-27R, just maybe a little bit shorter ranged.

 

With respect to tactics, this entire 'missile thing' prevents employment of realistic BVR tactics. There are definitely documented anti-eagle and anti-AMRAAM tactics, not just tidbids on 'Dogfights/History Channel', but documented in tactics manuals and verified by instructors who teach those tactics. You might say that in some respects, they look liek what's being described here, but they pretty much begin with this gem: Don't get closer than 15nm to an AMRAAM carrier until they waste all their weapons. There's no 'sniff the ground, make a few wild turns and drop some chaff' tactic. In fact, they try to be M1+ and if possible, at higher altitude than some opponents (eg. F-16's) but the rule is still 'stay away'.

 

The tactics change if you have a numerical advantage, but depend heavily on un-targeted entries which may or may not be possible.

 

While I agree overall, what you are seeing there is a form of publication bias. You'd hardly expect to see videos of 120's frequently missing slow non-manuevering targets uploaded.

Edited February 26, 2014 by GGTharos

[SFAL]

It always boils down to this. The amraam is better and there are manuals and what else. I personaly like to see these but its... classifed. Which brings me to this: america has always liked to show off what they have and this in some respect a way forward.

The ruskies on the otherhand.... even the r77 and the offsping of that tech is under speculation.

So.... lets stay with GAME bvr tactics and missiles. No point speculating about real stuff.

If we EVER to find out some one didnt do its job...

[*Rage*]

Definitely not publication bias. Nor would I expect a new weapon to be out-performed (or have similar performance) by an old weapon - right now it's all 'meh it's all the same' :)

 

The bias here is a wishful thinking - the wishful thinking that dodging 120's should somehow be easy and you can easily fight back with technology that's decades older.

 

I'll put it in other words: It's actually quite a bit like saying that a vietnam era sparrow should be on part with an R-27R, just maybe a little bit shorter ranged.

 

With respect to tactics, this entire 'missile thing' prevents employment of realistic BVR tactics. There are definitely documented anti-eagle and anti-AMRAAM tactics, not just tidbids on 'Dogfights/History Channel', but documented in tactics manuals and verified by instructors who teach those tactics. You might say that in some respects, they look liek what's being described here, but they pretty much begin with this gem: Don't get closer than 15nm to an AMRAAM carrier until they waste all their weapons. There's no 'sniff the ground, make a few wild turns and drop some chaff' tactic. In fact, they try to be M1+ and if possible, at higher altitude than some opponents (eg. F-16's) but the rule is still 'stay away'.

 

The tactics change if you have a numerical advantage, but depend heavily on un-targeted entries which may or may not be possible.

 

 

Dude, either youre not reading what i wrote or youre letting the F15/amraam speckled glasses cloud your responses:smilewink:

 

Any publication/journal/youtube that only publishes or uploads positive results will by definition suffer from publication bias. This is a fact whether it applies to drug trials or missile pK. Claiming it isnt is simply wrong. I could post a number of links and papers explaining it further but that would be deeply boring and unnecessary. Thats not to say a modern missile cannot intercept a low flying target. Of course it can and it should. Thats what I wrote. Videos of such prove that it can, given the right circumstances, but does not constitute proof that it must without fail do so under all circumstances.

 

This is really about the claims made on these forums and the 'evidence' presented to support those claims. I might be being pedantic, but if we want to collectively discuss the finer points of flying a combat simulator and not just argue over a game than we need to up our scientific game as well (Red and Blue team are guilty of this). Note I did not mentions tactics or the state of current missiles in my post. If anything I think they should be deadlier with respects to tracking.

Edited February 26, 2014 by ///Rage

[TAW_Blaze]

Actually missiles are WIP as You know and maybe when its done and we got the over-AMRAAM there are only F-15 guys flying around. As it ist now I would say You can evade an 120Cs below 10nm, I'd guess under 6nm You need terrain in addition. You can't simply get near to MIG or SU to this distance without high risk, so I think it's the right timed pushing and extending until You get to this firing position without getting too close. The 104th guys can advise You better with this. But its a risky play, if You lose me in doing this and handling Your radar for too long I can get around You and its one out of the 9 of 10 kills I do where the Eagle driver never knew what hit him and missile dynamics dont play a role at all.

Sure players like Maverick or Spade are hard to handle with this due to their good trained coordination. But even when they are in a supreme postition I get them sometimes both in a mutual kill.

 

Yep it's always risky, the idea is that my first missile forces you to be defensive and then I can close up for a second shot that will either kill you or make you run back to your base, albeit datalink is a lot more helpful in these kind of scenarios than what the Eagle has as you can still see more or less how close the guy chasing you is. Of course using terrain masking you can deny the second shot and come back but if you're facing someone that flies visually and can predict your moves you'll have a hard time, but very few are there who actually do this. Also if you didn't have the advantage at the first shot then this doesn't really work out, but then again most of the russian birds you meet will be always lower than you.

 

Overall the reason why I try to play standoff because I'm not confident (yet :D) keeping a good picture of where the guy is and dodge his missiles inside 10 nm. This is prolly gonna change with time.

 

I'm flying 2000 meters above him and flying 150nm faster shooting a AMRAAM that go's mach 2+ if i'm correct. Only thing in his advantage is that he is running from me. And maybe that he is flying 200 meters above ground. They dispense some chaff and barely maneuvre and it alway's misses. And about chaff dispensing i'm not even sure. This all between 8 and 3.6nm

 

Generally it's not a good idea to tailchase people, 90% of the cases his buddies will get you and you probably won't know about them until it's too late. There are a lot of tricks to make the guy turn so you can close up.

 

What the problem here is in this kind of situation the enemy will mostly go low (most cases, he'll already be low). Low I mean below angels 10, at this kind of altitude you can't really expect anything to happen outside 5 miles on a running bandit, but with clever maneuvering or using terrain they can beat the slammer often even around 3 nm. Inside that, usually the terrain is his only hope. In some geometry the slammer simply won't have enough los rate to keep up when launched in close and will end up in a miss behind him, if you judge he can't return fire keep pushing for an AIM-9 shot which will have a much higher chance of doing something at these ranges. You can defeat a slammer fired head on low alt at 8 nm by dragging if you're fast enough. Think about firing at the same range when he's already running away.. guess the chance of killing him, that's right, zero. Also note that your slammer probably won't reach M4 at low alt and the motor burns out quickly, after that if it'll slow down really quickly due to dense air down low. It's not rare to have 20+ sec TTI on shots that were fired 4-6 miles back chasing a guy.

 

The missile is not hitting the ground. It tracks the target. They do a simple maneuvre without losing speed or atleast in such a way i won't even get closer. I alway's hope they notch because than i can come close enough to fire a AIM-9. Sometimes i shoot a AIM-7 and even they have a higher chance of hitting the target against those pilots. And it happens on flat terrain or even above the sea. If they would hide behind terrain i can understand it misses. But i do think it has something to do with ground clutter. Because if this engagemt happens on higher altitude but the same conditions it hits 90% of the time. So now and then i fly the MIG-29 or SU-27/SU-33 and i'm able to do the same. And in most Head on situations against F-15's when flying Russian jets i can evade AMRAAM's all day long within 10nm when not fired in TWS mode I should make some tracks about it to show you guy's.

Right now i'm not even trying to make them go defensive by firing missiles when i'm not closer than 15nm and i know i'm fighting against somebody superior. Because they simply avoid them and keep going. They don't even notch. The only time those elite pilot notch is when they try to lose my radar lock when i aquired them further than 15nm so they can hide.

This all makes BVR really really hard when flying the F-15. At one point iw as so desparate i try'd a another tactic by flying angels 47 and dive on them when within 10nm. That seemed to help, untill Maverick and buddy's found out

 

When you're in a chase and made the guy turn always pull lead pursuit but be gentle on the pull. Lot of guys will just pull one way then reverse just to fool you and if you pulled hard you threw away your speed. If you pull gently you'll keep your speed and he'll waste his, then you can get to that lead pursuit and get closer.

 

The other fundamental problem here is that you fly head straight into people. That rarely ever works when the guy knows you're there. Look up what cranking is, what it does, you'll understand. If I'm cranking and you're just coming straight at me you're going to lose 10/10, there are no ifs, that's just how it works.

 

About flying 'bove contrails, right now it's not very effective because of a lot of stuff. Don't recommend doing it right now. If you don't have a good experience of how things work you'll go completely wrong with flying that high and gonna get killed all the time.

Edited February 26, 2014 by <Blaze>

[winchesterdelta1]

I'm not claiming to be a expert or something and i only talk about things that i see in game. But the things is that BVR is almost non exsistant in DCS now. Offcourse the missiles need to be tweaked and such because they are still WIP. But right now it seems to easy for somebody that knows all the weak points of DCS missiles to avoid 95% of the missiles fired at all ranges above give or take 3nm. A F-15 or SU-27 that fires a missile around 15nm will miss most of the times.

You need to be extremely good in ambushing if you want to kill those people. Because missiles don't pose any danger unless you totally don't know what your doing or when you have a bad day or come within 10nm. I don't really mind being shot down by superior pilots ina 1 vs 1 or when playing as a team. But these non exsisting BVR tactics in DCS are frustrating the hell out of me. A little less when flying the SU's or Mig's cause in that case i mostly just use EOS or ET's.

This BVR tactics post is pretty useless because most of it you can't even use in DCS. You should name this post "DCS ambush tactics". In my humble opinion the missiles can never be this bad in real life, Russian or American. If i can even dodge most missiles fired at me than there is something really wrong :p. Most missile that hit me are AMRAAM's fired in TWS while flying against multiple targets or ET's because i alway's forget the russian jets carry such missiles. And the only way to make experienced pilots go defensive is to fire the missiles in TWS mode. But from what i have been reading from the forums TWS mode should be less accurate with hitting manuevring targets than normal mode.

But maybe i should stay out of the discussion and let the experts talk.

Edited February 26, 2014 by winchesterdelta1

[GGTharos]

I've seen your videos on youtube. Very fun and typical, but you're flying stuck in your HuD. Look at that to begin with ... having your head out of the pit/HuD works nicely against ETs. That's just one habit.

[blkspade]

Any time you decide to commit to a tail chase you need to be fully aware of the possibility that you're being dragged. General rule is never stay STT on that bandit. Track them in TWS or visually if you're close enough, and scan the area up ahead. Also not having them hard locked presents the possibility that you've lost them and could trick them to recommit.

[TAW_Blaze]

Right now we live the era of WVR because the missiles suck at long ranges for a number of reasons (for instance, network issues, warping).

 

But right now it seems to easy for somebody that knows all the weak points of DCS missiles to avoid 95% of the missiles fired at all ranges above give or take 3nm.

 

Oh you couldn't be more wrong about this. :D It's all down to the scenario and what both of you do throughout the fight. Stop telling yourself that it's impossible because you're creating an imaginary bullshit in your head that in the end blocks any progression. Start asking people, start searching and looking for information, start thinking, start experimenting.

 

A F-15 or SU-27 that fires a missile around 15nm will miss most of the times.

 

Of course. You don't fire at those ranges to expect reasonable pk, atleast not in this game, not right now. You use them to build pressure. The more pressure you have, the more likely that the guy'll make a fatal mistake.

 

But these non exsisting BVR tactics in DCS are frustrating the hell out of me.

 

Sometimes me too. Shit happens, this is a game. Hopefully soon in the future it'll change, in the meantime, all you can do is adapt, and if you do so, you might learn something that you would never do otherwise.

 

In my humble opinion the missiles can never be this bad in real life, Russian or American.

 

Think about this: in real life the enemy doesn't teleport into space and back in a split second nor the missile tries to follow that. This happens a lot more than you'd think. Not stating missiles are perfect, just that they are not so one dimensionally borked as you think.

 

And the only way to make experienced pilots go defensive is to fire the missiles in TWS mode.

 

They are experienced for a reason. They will defend just as much as they need, not a second more.

 

But from what i have been reading from the forums TWS mode should be less accurate with hitting manuevring targets than normal mode.

 

Easier to lose the lock itself, other than that, not really, atleast not in any way I know of. Then again, I'm not an IRL expert.

 

Ps. download tacview, generate the files from your tracks if the server doesn't allow it live, watch what happens. You'll learn a lot from that.

[blkspade]

The experienced pilots are likely defending against your missile while its still on the rail.

[TAW_Blaze]

edit:

 

Disregard, wrong use of terminology. What I wanted to say, don't point your nose directly at the guy.

Edited February 26, 2014 by <Blaze>