Beyond Visual Range Struggles

[karambiatos]

IF they track....

ERs tracking? What sorcery is that?

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Who needs missiles anyway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW7LVa9Y_zA

 

(i can't corkscrew for crap lol :mad::doh: )

 

This new missile behaviour does make for more interesting fights in multiplayer, altough i do think the speed and range difference between the ER and 120's is too great atm .

You can hear it coming sure so you may not die to them very often, but it seems very hard to get close enough to an su27 to have a shot at killing him

[winchesterdelta1]

Who needs missiles anyway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW7LVa9Y_zA

 

(i can't corkscrew for crap lol :mad::doh: )

 

This new missile behaviour does make for more interesting fights in multiplayer, altough i do think the speed and range difference between the ER and 120's is too great atm .

You can hear it coming sure so you may not die to them very often, but it seems very hard to get close enough to an su27 to have a shot at killing him

 

Su-27's are easy to kill if you see them in my experience. If you don't see them they become very dangerous. For me it's harder to fight F-15's with my own F-15 than SU's and mig's.

 

P.S. video is private.

[Oberst Zeisig]

 

 

+1

 

There are plenty of dedicated F15 pilots achieving ridiculous k/d ratios online. The same k/d ratio cannot be achieved flying flankers.

 

 

 

Thats not tue IMO. With the flanker and DL I can have k/d of 9 to 0 or something (and none strikers) just as the advantage of this situational awarness + EOS stealth lock is just too big. If You're doing it right You can trick that F-15 radar model itm so easy that Youŕe litterally invisibile up to the time You do Your "stealth" shot. You can even do it with 27ERs as You can just sneak so close that there is no escape. But these are mostly tricks that are far from RL.

 

There ist no way in doing this with the F-15. If You do it right and coordinated You may control the airspace very well but maybe get out with 0 kills. But thats success too as it is ment to protect strikers in certain areas. If I push it too far and want to do a kill I've probably a 50 50 chance in getting killed myself no matter how good I coordinate the attack.

[Sceptre]

From longer ranges I always have better luck with the AIM-7M so I always carry a couple. I know the AMRAAM is better but the Sparrow seems more reliable at longer range

[Frostie]

Thats not tue IMO. With the flanker and DL I can have k/d of 9 to 0 or something (and none strikers) just as the advantage of this situational awarness + EOS stealth lock is just too big. If You're doing it right You can trick that F-15 radar model itm so easy that Youŕe litterally invisibile up to the time You do Your "stealth" shot. You can even do it with 27ERs as You can just sneak so close that there is no escape. But these are mostly tricks that are far from RL.

 

There ist no way in doing this with the F-15. If You do it right and coordinated You may control the airspace very well but maybe get out with 0 kills. But thats success too as it is ment to protect strikers in certain areas. If I push it too far and want to do a kill I've probably a 50 50 chance in getting killed myself no matter how good I coordinate the attack.

 

It has been that way since lockon, datalink is one big hack, it makes it too easy, an arcade shooter. AWACS and datalink are more powerful than ever. Personally I prefer without it and I don't mind flying against it, there are plenty of tricks to fool those that focus too much on it.

 

In a straight fight without it is when the F-15 comes into its own. The point is to make kills in a Flanker you more often than not you have to get into dangerous positions, that bandit you sneaked up on and launched ER at you may have him dead to rights but it's no problem for him to send an active your way resulting in a mutual kill, you can't defend because you need to keep your target locked.

[AegisFX]

Thats not tue IMO. With the flanker and DL I can have k/d of 9 to 0 or something (and none strikers) just as the advantage of this situational awarness + EOS stealth lock is just too big. If You're doing it right You can trick that F-15 radar model itm so easy that Youŕe litterally invisibile up to the time You do Your "stealth" shot. You can even do it with 27ERs as You can just sneak so close that there is no escape. But these are mostly tricks that are far from RL.

 

There ist no way in doing this with the F-15. If You do it right and coordinated You may control the airspace very well but maybe get out with 0 kills. But thats success too as it is ment to protect strikers in certain areas. If I push it too far and want to do a kill I've probably a 50 50 chance in getting killed myself no matter how good I coordinate the attack.

 

I normally do not use the RU fighters, but can sort of vouch for the fear as an F-15 guy. Even without DL the RU fighters, if pointed in the right direction, could get past an unfortunate or poorly aimed Eagle radar. EOS is just that useful and that deadly. With a group of coordinated radars searching, yes, the RU may get spotted, but alone, that radar has to be at the right place, right time, and right settings.

[Oberst Zeisig]

With a group of coordinated radars searching, yes, the RU may get spotted, but alone, that radar has to be at the right place, right time, and right settings.

 

Even then, it's quite easy to stay in the notch all the time and Your radar doesn't see me no matter what settings. I just patrol in the notch up and down and wait for You to come closer. I'm not even speaking of mountains. This way when You're close enough You never know what hit You.

 

But realistic?? ....

[TAW_Blaze]

It has been that way since lockon, datalink is one big hack, it makes it too easy, an arcade shooter.

The existance of such system does not make it on it's own, but rather a combination of a lot of things ingame:

 

1) inproper or simplified radar modeling of the Eagle

 

2) lack of datalink on the Eagle (oh hey, we're about to have 21st century AIM-9X but we can't have datalink that existed a decade before)

 

3) missile issues making high-low shots far worse than it should be

 

There might be more to this but, just lined up a few that immediately came to my mind.

[TAW_Blaze]

Even then, it's quite easy to stay in the notch all the time and Your radar doesn't see me no matter what settings. I just patrol in the notch up and down and wait for You to come closer. I'm not even speaking of mountains. This way when You're close enough You never know what hit You.

 

But realistic?? ....

 

That is more or less worthless against a coordinated 2 or more ship. Realism in case of a single fighter performing CAP or anything over an area is moot since that doesn't really happen IRL.

[Oberst Zeisig]

In a straight fight without it is when the F-15 comes into its own. The point is to make kills in a Flanker you more often than not you have to get into dangerous positions, that bandit you sneaked up on and launched ER at you may have him dead to rights but it's no problem for him to send an active your way resulting in a mutual kill, you can't defend because you need to keep your target locked.

 

Hmm when I sneak upon a guy that way and surprise him at 15 km almost nobody manages to get his radar settings up in time to launch. It would be possible in visual mode by taking the missile smoke as reference (I've done sometimes, alway resulting in a mutual kill) but thats only few seconds before impact in Your own plane. Understandably the most guys try to get away still, but are chanceless.

 

I still think in the sim now the su27 is the very better kill-taker but with these tactics of course You can't purposeful control the airspace, You can just hang around and wait for somebody run into Your trap.

 

For that reason the F-15 is more interesting for me in the moment and esp. for the AFM :D

[Oberst Zeisig]

That is more or less worthless against a coordinated 2 or more ship. Realism in case of a single fighter performing CAP or anything over an area is moot since that doesn't really happen IRL.

 

Sure I'm only speaking of 1 vs 1 or even better a bunch of uncoordinated F-15's, they're the perfect victims ;).

 

Sure it's maybe up to decent mp tactics to bring in some realism here, which is otherwise 1-1 almost non existant.

[TAW_Blaze]

Developing tactics to specifically fight incompetent people will hurt you more than anything.

 

edit: Well I phrased that a bit wrong, having tactics to counter bad moves is great, but you want to focus on trying to win against a guy that does everything right.

Edited May 8, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Oberst Zeisig]

Like developing bad habbits? Or what You mean?

[TAW_Blaze]

So-so. You don't always know who you fight, if you treat him as a scrub and he happens to be good he'll use that and you won't stand a chance. Always prepare for the best move by your opponent but don't be surprised by his bad moves.

[Oberst Zeisig]

I just look at the server list and know quite soon what are the capabilities of the guy I'm facing. ;-)

 

And above told tactic aplies to both the experienced with wingman and the noob. I never go offensive as long as I'm attacked by 2 and at least one still got me in his radar sight. In fact with this tactic You normally don't meet the experienced squadron and thus can't control the airspace.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Like developing bad habbits? Or what You mean?

 

Maybe he means, that never stepping out of your comfort zone, (camping) might not be very productive in terms of learning new stuff ?

[Oberst Zeisig]

Of course this isn't my only tactic, in fact I apply it less and less in last time. It has just proven to work in 90% of the cases with the flanker.

[Frostie]

Of course this isn't my only tactic, in fact I apply it less and less in last time. It has just proven to work in 90% of the cases with the flanker.

 

The tactic has always been the default lonewolf tactic. It what gets the most enjoyment and utilises the best aspects of Rus fighters, heck you can even apply these tactics with the Su25 to force a merge against an inexperieced pilot.

The problem arises when you try this against someone or many who have been dealing with this for years, once you're found out there is little escape.

[Oberst Zeisig]

Yeah, sure the best tactic against is a good coordinated 2 ship. Sometimes I split them up by giving a long range ER at the first, go to gimbals and then to the notch for the second guy. At that time they lost me both. Then it's very hard for them to stay coordinated and regain contact at me and in addition NOT getting too close as Iḿ just waiting for this. If You have DL it's a matter of seconds to go out of the notch, find the target and shooting an ET. Mostly experienced formations just realizise this and go defensive in time and so its a 0-0 kill as I cant catch them with the lame flanker.

 

What would really interest me how realistic are these quick locks with EOS vertical scan when going hot at say 30km and this quick LA of the ETs at that distance, as this ist the very strongest russian A-t-A concept in this sim. Say even in good weather conditions referring to most information You get it's not realistic AT ALL.

[FNG13]

I get close range combat and that tactics associated with that. That stuff is not hard for me. My issue is that I can't seem to get the hang of BVR combat.

 

First is shooting missiles. I usually go out there and loose off one missile at a time against targets medium/long distance. None of them ever hit, yet I always seem to be good fodder, no matter who I am facing or what I'm flying. AMRAAMS, Sparrows, 27s, 77s, no matter what I can't hit s***. What is my issue here? The really good pilots seem to usually disengage when fired upon, which brings me to my next point.

 

I do not understand defense whatsoever, primarily because I can't find any info on BVR combat tactics in the first place. The bandit can disengage and break lock with no issue, sometimes while guiding a misisle, All I can ever do is hit the weeds and hope the Missile does not keep up. That fly perpendicular crap doesn't seem to work for me, it usually just makes me feel like an idiot. The closest thing I have come up for a real tactic is to pull up hard then pull down hard while dumping chaff at smart times, and that doesn't always work, target/weapon irrespective.

 

There seems to be a few key tactics that separate the good from the flying bulleyes, but whenever I try to apply them, I end up with a face full of missile. I guess the best way to reply to this is a lesson on how to effectively engage BVR. I do not want a military technical manual, that is not useful to me here. I want people to elaborate tactics that can help me become better without having to bust open one of those damn things.

hvymtal:

I'm pretty much in the same place you are. What has helped me along is:

- Read this forum--Lots of very good advice from vets

- Learn to create your own missions in Mission Generator, then create a mission which puts an average skill bandit out there with no weapons, and get used to lock/unlock, switch weapons, going to guns

- Increase to 2/3/4 bandits to practice locking nearest threat, switching lock, etc (very important skill with managing avionics in Russian fighters)

- Give the bandits weapons and test what you have learned. If you still get smoked, drop back one and keep working up.

 

I assume you are trying to learn in multi-player environment. Realize that the players there are skilled in exploiting your mistakes. And if you are mostly going against AI in single-player mode, if their skill level is high, it is pretty much the same. This is where making your own missions is helpful--you can make the adversary as weak as you need to learn--like training wheels on a bike.

 

Also doesn't hurt to know your aircraft and capabilities, which means yes getting out reference materials and study. Part of the fun of it in my opinion.

:thumbup:

This game is different than many games in that the creators and players seek to get as close to real world scenario as possible. This of course creates more problems and headaches when trying to learn.

 

Whenever I get frustrated and weary of getting smoked, I just pop it into Game Avionics & Arcade mode and get my revenge (single-player of course). Works for me!:)

[TAW_Blaze]

Realize that the players there are skilled in exploiting your mistakes. And if you are mostly going against AI in single-player mode, if their skill level is high, it is pretty much the same.

 

Oh you couldn't be more wrong, AI is hands down awful. At anything.

[FNG13]

Oh you couldn't be more wrong' date=' AI is hands down awful. At anything.[/quote']

 

Probably true for experienced pilot...but at my skill level with the flanker, the F-18s do pretty well! I'll agree that my AI wingmen are not very good at anything except funneling the bandits right to me! But that's OK, more challenge for me!:)

 

I use a technique very similar to Oberst's "min pk shot and notch" move. Put the bandit on the defensive right away, make yourself difficult to track on radar, and get in tight for a better pk shot. An energy gaining maneuver is also helpful here, and never try to fight in a flanker with lots of fuel!

 

My biggest problem right now is in my own cockpit--managing the radar, weapons' modes, etc. Fingers aren't quite fast enough yet, and I haven't optimized my controller well enough yet...

 

Not the right thread, but I'll also mention here that I would LOVE to see exportable flanker RWS! Right now all I can manage is the HDD on a separate 8 inch display--would love to have the RWS right next to it! I think my situational awareness would go up tremendously!

[AegisFX]

Probably true for experienced pilot...but at my skill level with the flanker, the F-18s do pretty well! I'll agree that my AI wingmen are not very good at anything except funneling the bandits right to me! But that's OK, more challenge for me!:)

 

I use a technique very similar to Oberst's "min pk shot and notch" move. Put the bandit on the defensive right away, make yourself difficult to track on radar, and get in tight for a better pk shot. An energy gaining maneuver is also helpful here, and never try to fight in a flanker with lots of fuel!

 

My biggest problem right now is in my own cockpit--managing the radar, weapons' modes, etc. Fingers aren't quite fast enough yet, and I haven't optimized my controller well enough yet...

 

Not the right thread, but I'll also mention here that I would LOVE to see exportable flanker RWS! Right now all I can manage is the HDD on a separate 8 inch display--would love to have the RWS right next to it! I think my situational awareness would go up tremendously!

 

 

 

If you have AI wingmen with Air to Air missiles, tell them to turn their radars on as a flight. When they call contact, tell the flight to engage bandits. You should be the last unit to engage. This may not make you a better pilot in the online arena, but telling your wingmen to engage first can be useful( maybe they kill the bandits? or the bandits drop some stores, use missiles and CMS before you enter the fray) This also gives you a few moments to bring up radar, etc as you remain relatively clean of the fighting. Sorry if you may already know or do this.

[TAW_Blaze]

Fighting AI can be a good start to get comfortable with your own systems. That said, players fly a lot more agressively than the AI so they won't prepare you for everything, not even as far as the radar handling goes.