Beyond Visual Range Struggles

[*Rage*]

Harsh.....

[Oberst Zeisig]

That is just a bunch of hand-waving. I don't think you even know what a good pilot is.

 

 

No need to talk at this level.

[104th_Maverick]

When you're defensive, you're losing SA.

 

Not if your on comms with a lot of people.... Had waaaaay to much BVR time to agree with you on that one!

[GGTharos]

That's ok. The USAF agrees with me, or, rather, the other way around.

 

;2018716']Not if your on comms with a lot of people.... Had waaaaay to much BVR time to agree with you on that one!

[hitman]

Just because you have wingmen or allies in the area in comms with you, doesnt mean you are able to use that information to the fullest extent -if at all. Thats what GG is getting at here. You, on the other hand, have your hands full defending, and your options are limited by which direction to defend towards and against.

[blkspade]

That's ok. The USAF agrees with me, or, rather, the other way around.

 

From that perspective, you lose the 'additional' SA awarded to you directly by your instruments.

[TAW_Blaze]

If you have a 2-ship and one is defensive, you're losing SA, because you're having only one of the element building and maintaining his SA, if none of you are defensive you have 2 guys to build and maintain that SA. Remember, 2 eyes are always better than one. So in effect, yes, when you're defensive you're losing SA. However that does not necessarily imply said SA is insufficient.

[104th_Maverick]

Just because you have wingmen or allies in the area in comms with you, doesnt mean you are able to use that information to the fullest extent -if at all.

 

As part of a disiplined flight yes you can... that is what I'm getting at.

 

If I'm flying as part of a 3 ship and I'm the one defensive back towards the other two, I'm constantly getting SA from my wingmen on what the guy chasing me is doing.

 

Yes you loose SA from your Radar but you are gaining SA from your wingmen. My wingman can tell me exactly where he is from me, what his range is, what he is doing and if it is safe for me to recommit on him.

 

So no its not as clear cut as ... you go defensive you loose SA... this is true on your own.. but not part of a well drilled Squadron who are all on comms and who do this stuff day in day out!

[GGTharos]

It is exactly that clear cut, and it is exactly the argument I made.

The defensive fighter is always losing SA.

 

You might decide that in some scenarios this is irrelevant and equate it to not losing SA. That is still factually incorrect.

 

You've attempted to equate using certain tactics as 'not losing SA' - what you're doing is bleeding SA slower, but you're still losing it.

[104th_Maverick]

If you say so mate

[TAW_Blaze]

Mav

 

Assume all members of the flight are in their standard position and none of them are exposed to an immediate threat. That means all of them contribute to the SA of the flight (or each individual). Now take away one guy that has gone defensive and you're immediately losing SA compared to if you were in the position described further above.

 

Or not gaining extra SA by contributing yourself, from another perspective. Same thing.

 

Albeit that doesn't really mean anything, it's possible that most of the time having one of you defensive won't matter at all but in a chaotic situation every eye counts because it can easily happen that all of the others will miss something you happened to find.

 

Another thought is that if you're defensive it's quite possible that one or multiple other members of the flight are focused on helping you which reduces the SA even further.

[Oberst Zeisig]

;2018812']As part of a disiplined flight yes you can... that is what I'm getting at.

 

If I'm flying as part of a 3 ship and I'm the one defensive back towards the other two, I'm constantly getting SA from my wingmen on what the guy chasing me is doing.

 

Yes you loose SA from your Radar but you are gaining SA from your wingmen. My wingman can tell me exactly where he is from me, what his range is, what he is doing and if it is safe for me to recommit on him.

 

So no its not as clear cut as ... you go defensive you loose SA... this is true on your own.. but not part of a well drilled Squadron who are all on comms and who do this stuff day in day out!

 

Maybe some guys nobody wants to fly with so they're missing this experience.

[104th_Maverick]

Look my point is this...

 

GG said there are NO exceptions if you go defensive you loose SA... Im saying there are exceptions.

 

The Drag and Bag being just one of them.

 

I'm not talking about every situation, Im talking about specific ones when your on comms with people.

 

I've been in these situations hundreds of times and my SA doesnt go out the window because I keep myself informed with my wingmen.... yes I loose the SA from my radar but all the SA I 'would' have been getting from my radar I can get from my wingman.

 

So no I dont agree that there are no exceptions... and in my opinion based on thousands of hours flying BVR online .... its not as clear cut as GG makes out.

[NineLine]

Hmmm, arent you guys saying the same thing, GG is saying you start losing SA as you go defensive, not saying you lose it all, 100% of it, instantly... and Mav is saying you dont lose all your SA going defensive, as your wingmen can add to it... so seems like everyone is saying the same thing in a different way...

[GGTharos]

And you are still wrong. Drag and bag is not exception. You're conflating 'having more SA than the guy being dragged' with 'not losing SA'. That is incorrect. As the defensive/dragging fighter, you are constantly bleeding SA.

 

I don't care how many game-hours you have. If you don't know how to measure SA, you won't know you're losing it. The air forces of the world agree: SA is bled when you are defensive. There are no exceptions, and this is why very quick fights are emphasized - reduce chances of you opponent getting a shot in, and lose as little SA as you can.

 

This is a very fine point, and you're not getting it.

 

;2018847']Look my point is this...

 

GG said there are NO exceptions if you go defensive you loose SA... Im saying there are exceptions.

[104th_Maverick]

Ok I will bow to the master of the universe... sorry everyone GG was right ;)

[NineLine]

I think everyone has lost situational awareness on this thread...

[GGTharos]

Don't bow to me, bow to the air forces of the world. These things aren't my opinions, nor my words. You can find literature regarding these things yourself if you care to look at it.

 

Shaw's book offers a really huge hint for analyzing SA.

[GGTharos]

That is true, we've gone from advice to arguing about technical details.

 

I think everyone has lost situational awareness on this thread...

[104th_Maverick]

That is true, we've gone from advice to arguing about technical details.

 

Indeed, I regret even jumping in here now.

 

In a way I agree with GG, I also want to point out now that I'm no stranger to GG's technical knowledge so I'm not blindly throwing up objections here based on nothing!

 

I've probably been taking his words to literally from the 'you go defensive you loose all your SA' point of view. But it has become a bit of a battle for words.

 

I'll concede that going defensive bleeds SA... BUT you can limit the amount of bleeding if you are flying with the right people to a point where your almost (fk off GG ;) ) not loosing SA ... or at least not as fast as someone who is not flying with an organised flight!

 

We're not both right, he's more right than I am... but I'm still not wrong :P

[NineLine]

You both just need to go work this out in the AFK room ;)

 

[hitman]

Ill put this in plain simple english where everyone can understand...even me.

 

Situational Awareness means you have control of the situation.

Loss of SA means you dont have full control of the situation.

No SA means you are going down in a ball of flames...or are about to.

[GGTharos]

The reason for this argument is that you are thinking about tactics whereas I am talking about one, single, very technical point.

 

I'm not saying your overall analysis is wrong, and as advice goes, saying 'wingmen help you' you are exactly correct.

 

BTW, if you look at Sith's statement though and the arguments leading up to it, you see once more that ... when defensive you lose SA :D

 

;2018871']I'll concede that going defensive bleeds SA... BUT you can limit the amount of bleeding if you are flying with the right people to a point where your almost (fk off GG ;) ) not loosing SA ... or at least not as fast as someone who is not flying with an organised flight!

 

We're not both right, he's more right than I am... but I'm still not wrong :P

[Frostie]

You can't generalise with SA. I've turned cold numerous times and picked up bandits flanking and also behind the flight therefore I've just greatly improved SA. What SA do you want to describe an individuals SA or a flights SA, an individual might have great SA but if he doesn't share it the flight may not. Another bonus of turning defensive gives a radar picture of where the flight is so SA in that respect increases providing there is no DL. If you're talking about a singular engagement then really you're just running similair to a controlled environment, training, where the best SA will belong to the most aggressive so turning cold will harm your SA of the fight.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Frostie

[hvymtal]

SA is not entirely lost in defense. Looking at an RWR and only paying attention to the big M is a mistake, and lets not lie, we've all done that more than we would like to think. No, RWR is not entirely reliable, especially on Russian birds, but simply putting 100% of your attention onto evading one missile that with a little early maneuvering will fall over anyways is a waste of mental capacity. You don't have to look around everywhere, but keep an eye on your RWR; it really is a second pair of eyes when you have to focus mainly on one task

 

I appreciate the advice and I think that we need to get back on topic with sharing some BVR tips and tricks. After some personal experimentation and some more online play I find that you have to shoot seven missiles at four targets to hit something, and that under all circumstances Winchester makes a great target.

 

(Again, I swear I double and triple checked my IFF, I did not mean to TK you last night XD)

 

On a more serious note I read an article that details the Russians' idea of BVR combat on Aus Air Power, link at bottom. Basically, from an external viewer's standpoint, the Russians launch multiple missiles at a target within a close timeframe. The further away and more dangerous that enemy, the more missiles they will put into the air, though usually no more than two. This is meant to increase the PK of not necessarily great missiles to something acceptable, and is why the pylon count moving from the MiG-23MLD to the Su-27 was four to ten-twelve. Considering my experience, I think this is something worth discussing. I have had pretty good success thus far when I put most of my missiles into the air.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

Edited March 12, 2014 by hvymtal