New material for flat and cylindrical displays

[zahry]

It is very interesting the screen is black I would really like to see the quality of the image .I have just never seen a black projection screen before

 

The coatings absorb scattered light so the screen looks black when there is no focused light shining on it. I took close up with white projection material (on left and the trident HD material on right) - the view was zoomed out to 90º on the projector - this is just a few degrees section

 

Edited April 15, 2014 by zahry

[Deadman]

Hi Zahry interesting but not what i was looking for will you post a video of flight time with your set up in a room with normal day time lighting? With the projector obviously set correctly for a darker projection screen it will be washed out on a white area next to it. So your picture does not really help me out with the quality of the view using your panoramic system. Thanks DM

[zahry]

coming right up

Edited April 15, 2014 by zahry

[zahry]

Hi Zahry interesting but not what i was looking for will you post a video of flight time with your set up in a room with normal day time lighting? With the projector obviously set correctly for a darker projection screen it will be washed out on a white area next to it. So your picture does not really help me out with the quality of the view using your panoramic system. Thanks DM

 

Hi Deadman, got it. :thumbup:

 

It is kinda counter intuitive concept as the standard black screen is inherently black because it doesn't reflect any light - which makes it unusable for front projection that works by reflecting light from a surface. This material is black purely because it absorbs the scattered "unorganized" light around and for focused light such as from projector it is highly reflective.

 

Following photos are from various angles with various kinds of lighting (LED, incandescent, scattered daylight, bright daylight and compared to my LED monitor). I've taken photos with large portions of black and vivid colors which is typically considered as the weakest point point of projection systems vs ambient light. The projector used was BenQ 1080ST with standard out of the box settings (set to standard image, color and contrast to 50, no RGB adjustment) The whole set is here. http://www.simpit.co.nz/videos/tridenthd_screen/ Mind you - with the bright direct sunlight in the room i couldn't use rear projection TV at all and LED TV is pretty hard to watch as well because of the glare.

 

At the first glance it looks like there is nothing much special about the photos but I would like to point out that this is not a TV image - it is a front projection and projectors can not physically project black because black is simply just absence of light. You can imagine (or if you have a same projector you can try) that similar image on white/silver screen with lot's of light around would be just washed out colors and lot's of white/silver.

 

[*Rage*]

Looks great!

 

So what is total cost?

[Deadman]

Zahry thanks :thumbup:

[zahry]

Hi Rage,

The plans for the frame are free – the frame material cost including projector holders will be around $20 - $100 depending on where you source the materials from and if you do it yourself.

 

Warping and blending is $215 (pc locked license for up to 6 projectors). I’ll try to make pre-calibrated files for the setups (work in progress)

 

BenQ W 1080ST costs from amazon $945 http://www.amazon.com/BenQ-W1080ST-1080p-Theater-Projector/dp/B00B11C6HW.

 

The screen/display material is from 4mm lexan coated with SimPit coatings. Following numbers are for radius 1.15m (if you increase radius you can fit more things in but you’ll lose some FoV)

 

1x projector - 1920x1080 for ~105º FoV, = 2.3m x 1.3m (104”) ……$ 750

2x projectors - 3840 x 1080 for ~180º FoV, = 3.6m x 1.3m .….$ 1,100

3x projectors - 5760x1080 for ~270º FoV = 5.4m x 1.3m …..$ 1,550

4x projectors - and 7680x1080 360º Fov = 7.2m x 1.3m ….$ 1,950

 

In example if you already have 2 projectors the upgrade will cost ~$1140 for 180º setup. If you’ll have to start from scratch all up will cost ~$3,225 – the setup is equivalent to 2K 150”. Similar TV is selling now for about $150 000,- (source http://news.yahoo.com/samsung-sells-110-inch-ultra-hd-tv-150-085617127--finance.html) :pilotfly:

Edited April 16, 2014 by zahry

[Kuky]

The only thing I don't like with this projection setup is that it is not projecting the upper area (above your head). With this setup you really should not be using any head tracking and I'm sure it'll make you feel like you are there... but still it doesn't cover the upper side... there is alway something missing or it becomes way too expensive :(

[zahry]

Hi Kuky, the top area is missing -that's for sure. I found using head tracking pitch, yaw, roll very nauseating but I'm still using head tracking for the cockpit (x,y,z). With that field of view I've reverted to PoV hat and I'm using snap views (glance up 45º) - it provides the view and situational awareness I need and I'm able to stay oriented without getting queezy. I'm also working on extension for the top (making it as an inverted T) or I might add overhead panel - but that's still work in progress and it might be dead end as that solution really needs a section of a sphere and then it would cost a fortune to make and ship (unless I'll get one of my little moments and come up with something simple and compact)

[zahry]

Just remembered - I already had a video of the trident uploaded - but the warping and blending wasn't done.

${1}

[bnepethomas]

What is it going to cost to ship to Oz?

[zahry]

hi bnepethomas - according to NZpost website about 166NZD

[bnepethomas]

hi bnepethomas - according to NZpost website about 166NZD

 

Magic - time to get the tape measure out, how flexible are you re the dimensions?

 

cheers

 

peter

[mhe]

Can this projection surface also be used for home cinema purposes? Because the daylight picture quality seems amazing and I have always wanted a beamer in my living room, but the daylight picture quality was a huge turnoff for me so far.

[zahry]

Magic - time to get the tape measure out, how flexible are you re the dimensions?

 

cheers

 

peter

 

very flexible - let me know what you need and I'll make it. if you have soldworks/sketchup i make you a model with your room to check how it will fit

 

Can this projection surface also be used for home cinema purposes? Because the daylight picture quality seems amazing and I have always wanted a beamer in my living room, but the daylight picture quality was a huge turnoff for me so far.

 

Yes it can - my TV at home is giving me very worried look lately because I didn't turned it on since I've installed the screen - the photos posted here were from my home setup.

[Haukka81]

The only thing I don't like with this projection setup is that it is not projecting the upper area (above your head). With this setup you really should not be using any head tracking and I'm sure it'll make you feel like you are there... but still it doesn't cover the upper side... there is alway something missing or it becomes way too expensive :(

 

 

This. This screen won't be any better than triple monitors.

 

So we have to hope that oculos is good enough. :thumbup:

[zahry]

This. This screen won't be any better than triple monitors.

 

So we have to hope that oculos is good enough. :thumbup:

Hi Haukka81, Can you explain the thought process justifying your statement? We are talking about flight simulation. I would be particulary interested to understand how come 3 small monitors with bezzels are better than single large screen the size of a wall and with true surround view - and why do you think tiny screen (OR) with smalest field of view, worst resolution and bad situational awareness would save the day? I believe everybody is entitled to their opinion and I'm prepared to respect the opinion as long as you are able to explain it and justify it.

[*Rage*]

Hi Haukka81, Can you explain the thought process justifying your statement? We are talking about flight simulation. I would be particulary interested to understand how come 3 small monitors with bezzels are better than single large screen the size of a wall and with true surround view - and why do you think tiny screen (OR) with smalest field of view, worst resolution and bad situational awareness would save the day? I believe everybody is entitled to their opinion and I'm prepared to respect the opinion as long as you are able to explain it and justify it.

 

Agreed. While I am very excited about OR my main concerns are the above. Does head tracking work with your screens?

[Haukka81]

Hi Haukka81, Can you explain the thought process justifying your statement? We are talking about flight simulation. I would be particulary interested to understand how come 3 small monitors with bezzels are better than single large screen the size of a wall and with true surround view - and why do you think tiny screen (OR) with smalest field of view, worst resolution and bad situational awareness would save the day? I believe everybody is entitled to their opinion and I'm prepared to respect the opinion as long as you are able to explain it and justify it.

 

 

3xProjectors = expensive, lamps will cost, they won't last too long even in movie use. Sure you can use just one projector but rez is low then... :music_whistling:

 

And track ir is still needed, because you have just nice big screen but vertical and horizontal fov is same than in triple screen.

 

 

So not worth to get if already own triple screen (IMHO). Bezels are not problem for me.

 

OR will have widefov about 100-120 degree + 1:1 head tracking and 1440p rez for first consumer version and next gen's even more.

 

Sure you have to make OC look bad because it's better for your sales.

 

 

And rift won't make your vision go bad, there may be motion sickness etc.. .. but it won't harm your vision. Human eye is not so weak. :thumbup:

[*Rage*]

3xProjectors = expensive, lamps will cost, they won't last too long even in movie use. Sure you can use just one projector but rez is low then... :music_whistling:

 

And track ir is still needed, because you have just nice big screen but vertical and horizontal fov is same than in triple screen.

 

 

So not worth to get if already own triple screen (IMHO). Bezels are not problem for me.

 

OR will have widefov about 100-120 degree + 1:1 head tracking and 1440p rez for first consumer version and next gen's even more.

 

Sure you have to make OC look bad because it's better for your sales.

 

 

And rift won't make your vision go bad, there may be motion sickness etc.. .. but it won't harm your vision. Human eye is not so weak. :thumbup:

 

So don't buy it.

 

No need to put other people down. Especially if they are trying to innovate. Especially if they are trying to innovate in a tough, niche market.

 

The rest of us can make up our own minds thanks.

[Flim]

I'm not sure he is putting anything down per say... The initial post is what got my attention and while projection is cool, works pretty well; you are just enlarging the monitors. The Fov, SA, and overall experience is not mind blowing. In my case, I realized how much money was invested/(space Req) which made me change my mind. To each his own, but Zahry was trying to make a case against OR in the initial post which is a little misleading. Most of the problems with DK1 are worked out, and come Cv1, it will be a mind blowing experience. Now, will everyone be able to use it... I'm not sure, there will be those who it will not work for. If it was that bad, Ed would be not wasting time adding code to make it work. It would be nice to get Matt's view on the Dk2 version...

Edited April 21, 2014 by Flim

[Haukka81]

What Flim says and to get wider FOV than what we have now in triple screen you need even more projectors than 3..or else you just get very bad PPI resolution..

 

Very affordable... not so true.

[donbinator]

I'm confused about everyone who plans to use Rift (now owned by facebook) for their "cockpit". I can understand playing computer games with a head mounted display where one hand is on the mouse and the other with you middle finger at the D key or whatever (I've spent many hours doing just that), but what do I do with a head mounted display sitting in my cockpit surrounded by gauges and dials? What's the point to my front panel?

As far as projection vs. monitor, I get that when you stretch stuff out your resolution is decreased, but what is your goal? I would much rather have 180' field of view than what I can get with three monitors on bezels, which gets me about 100' at best. Almost every commercial high end simulator uses a setup very similar to what zahry is peddling. I for one am excited about it. I've already spent thousands on my cockpit and I'm only half done. One of the more important aspects is the view. I would probably still use my trackIR but have it locked until I turned my head up or far to the side. Space is another thing though, I don't have enough space for the screen where my cockpit currently sits, but given half a chance I'll rearrange stuff to get the space.

[zahry]

Hi Guys, thanks for the input and thank you so much for keeping the discussion civilized and informative even though there is so many different opinions.

 

///Rage -yes, head tracking works with the screen and I would strongly recommend it. The profiles need some tweaking but it greatly enhances the situational awareness and by using correctly calibrated head tracking in X,Y,Z you can merge virtual components of the cockpit with the hardware parts so it looks almost seamless.

 

Haukka81 - Thanks for the explanation. Few of the things you wrote are common myths and misconceptions.

 

In example statement that projector are expensive. In the same class of things I have to say projectors are cheap and big TVs and monitors of expensive - compare the cost of 120" curved TV to projector based solution and projectors are much cheaper. You can't objectively compare OR to projectors because of the OR small FoV, low image quality and poor resolution (will explain later).

Projector bulb life - I do use projectors for commercial projects and in my experience it lasts pretty long time some of the projectors are on 4000 - 5000 hrs (predicted life span of 2500 hrs) and still no sweat - if you spend 800 hrs a year gaming (33.33 days a year non stop gaming without a break or sleep) it will last you 5 years. I would say that's pretty reasonable considering that normal person can afford maybe 200-300 hrs per year of gaming = 16 years projector life - providing they want to finish school, keep their job or stay married.

 

"OR will have widefov about 100-120 degree + 1:1 head tracking and 1440p rez for first consumer version and next gen's even more". - If you use 3D there is significant cropping on each side due to parallax shift on each eye that means about 20% of the screen is not practically useable and considering the FoV now is about 80-85º on dev kit you might get 70º for real if you are lucky. Not sure where you got 1440p from - the dev kit has 640 x 800 resolution and the proposed release 960 x 1080 which is further more cropped by the optics and warping as anybody who tried OR and understands how it works can confirm). You can not take resolution per eye and add it together - if you do my monitor would have resolution 3840 x 1080 :D.

 

Sure you have to make OC look bad because it's better for your sales. - I think you got it the other way around - OR is making everybody else look bad in order to stamp down the competition so they can dominate the market. Their marketing is what I call marketing scam, severe abuse of language or pure unadulterated b$#T :D - Of course - if you point out the obvious lies in their marketing and flaws and problems in the design it might seems like I'm making it look bad - but what I'm really doing is removing the wool they pulled over your eyes so you can see the product as it really is.

 

And rift won't make your vision go bad, there may be motion sickness etc.. .. but it won't harm your vision. Human eye is not so weak. I would strongly recommend to do your homework - this is quite complicated subject so some information will be missing but I will attempt to jump to the bottom line - Yes - it won't harm your vision directly and immediately in the classical way of stabbing nail through your eye. The problems are related to eyestrain, eye muscle weakening and deterioration (with 3D goggles you stare ahead with restricted blinking into bright back lit display through less than perfect optical train) - motion sickness is immediate issue but not the worst - headaches and problems with focusing and balance are far worst, but those not immediately obvious after first few uses. I know it because I've been using 3D goggles long term and I've experienced it all first hand.

 

Flim - I'm not trying to make case against OR - I'm making point about some statements regarding OR capabilities because those are made up based on marketing scams without actually having any experience with the product. It gets bit old to hear the barrage of attacks from the rift hyped up crowd all the time at everything old and new and I'm over hearing all the time how everything is supposedly inferior to the rift even thought the claims have nothing to do with reality. If you think my post is misleading - can you explain why? If there is a misunderstanding I'll try to clarify it and I'm happy to provide verifiable references and links to back up my statements if it seems wrong and if some of my statements were wrong I'm happy to educate myself.

 

Most of the problems with DK1 are worked out, Yes - they "solved" them by ignoring them. and come Cv1, it will be a mind blowing experience. We can all experience how mind blowing it will be - turn your monitor to portrait, set resolution to 800 x 1000 (for CV1 version) and zoom DCS out to 110º (for cropping to 100º and I'm quite generous) - the view you'll get will be exactly the same or better than on rift - good luck with spotting airplanes without labels on, reading instruments and hud or simply recognizing building from a tank. There is no intention to make rift look bad - there is just the reality meeting the fantasy again ...

Edited April 22, 2014 by zahry

[streakeagle]

I have been waiting for affordable 3d goggles that would equal or exceed the resolution of a desktop display. OR is not it. The single eye resolution would have to be on the order of 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 to beat what I am used to. I have recently gone down to 1920x1080 to use an old 46" LCD display. The size is great, but I will go quad HD the moment I own a PC that can run DCS at that resolution with full quality using only a single GPU. For OR to get my attention, they need to be at least 1920x1080 per eye and looking toward quad HD.