How to Kill the Dora Tutorial Video

[NineLine]

I approve forum disputes being decided by online dogfights... just youtube it m'kay ;)

[USARStarkey]

I approve forum disputes being decided by online dogfights... just youtube it m'kay ;)

 

I agree.

[Krupi]

Challenge Accepted. Also this isn't boom and zoom. I started this from Co-E and Co-alt.

 

Nothing out dives a 51 starting at co-alt and co-e. A Dora is close, so if it had more speed at the start it might get away. The 51 and Doras dive are close enough that you wont see a huge difference except after an extended dive.

 

I think you could find some hog drivers that would very much disagree with that statement.

 

And no thanks, I do not do 1v1 and I don't understand what a P-51 duel would do other than prove what I have already said... Strange!

 

Before you ask I do not do 1 v 1s because they are not realistic in proving tactics.

[NineLine]

Bottom line though, there are a lot of factors before you decide which fighter is better, no one is gonna win this argument. You can put the Dora in a position that would be devastating for the P-51 and vise versa... most of the time it will come down to which pilot is better at exploiting the others weaknesses and protecting his own...

[Krupi]

Bottom line though, there are a lot of factors before you decide which fighter is better, no one is gonna win this argument. You can put the Dora in a position that would be devastating for the P-51 and vise versa... most of the time it will come down to which pilot is better at exploiting the others weaknesses and protecting his own...

 

Exactly :thumbup:

[USARStarkey]

If by the Hog you mean the corsair, US testing showed it to be slower in a dive than the 51.

 

Lol, not realistic in proving tactics? So since you state only a stupid pilot would be beaten by this, it follows that all you have to do is beat me to prove it so. Alternatively, if you lose, I am either right about this, or you are one of those pilots you disdain so much. Anyhow, this conversation is derailing this thread so I'm done. I had no intention of making this into a plane v plane discussion thread, as was stated, no one will ever win that. This isn't even supposed to be a argument thread. But you said my tactic wont work on a human pilot, for as yet unstated reasons, so I had to respond. Anyhow, this conversation is derailing this thread so I'm done.

Edited April 23, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Krupi]

For the record I am not saying the 190 is a better aircraft, just that the tactic here is only 'good' due to 1) Poor AI 2) 1v1

 

I will repeat any pilot with experience would realize the danger he is in and turn tail not continue to be caught in a stall.

 

Hogs are P-47's

Edited April 23, 2014 by Krupi

[USARStarkey]

For the record I am not saying the 190 is a better aircraft, just that the tactic here is only 'good' due to 1) Poor AI 2) 1v1

 

I will repeat any pilot with experience would realize the danger he is in and turn tail not continue to be caught in a stall.

 

1. The AI is DCS is not poor. Perhaps not a human, but much better than in any other ww2 sim ive seen. Thats why I made this video, that thing gives people alot of trouble. There are some threads on this.

 

2. What does it have to do with being 1v1? I suppose someone else could come in at a higher E state in intervene but thats true for any fight regardless of tactics.

 

Hogs are also Corsairs.

 

Regarding the P-47, here is an excerpt from trials carried out on the aircraft.

 

"Dive – Several full throttle dives were carried out at these heights and I each the Mustang accelerated away from the P-47 and remained in front."

Edited April 23, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Krupi]

My bad I meant jug not hog.

[USARStarkey]

No big deal

[Krupi]

By bad AI what I mean is they do not flee, they have no self preservation routine ;)

Edited April 23, 2014 by Krupi

[USARStarkey]

That is true. But they are much better at doing the actual fighting part.

[blkspade]

By bad AI what I mean is they do not no when to flee, they have no self preservation routine ;)

 

While not quite the same as what you're getting at, I have found that the AI will attempt to RTB if they lose sight of you. Since they are not all-knowing anymore, they rely on more realistic sight and sensor input (modern aircraft). I have had a few instances where the AI and I lost each other in jets to eventually pick him back up 6nm+ away on radar extending. I guess at that point the combination of the ROE setting, and the RWR notification dictate the AI choice to recommit.

[ZaltysZ]

Nothing out dives a 51 starting at co-alt and co-e.

 

There is a catch here. It is important when diving starts and when ends. P-51 has low drag, but does not shine at low speed acceleration. If diving starts after low speed roll over, Dora, BF109, Spitfire and so on will have advantage over P-51 for a while. P-51 will begin oudiving these planes only at higher speeds. If P-51 does not keep speed high enough and does not begin diving early enough, other planes on its six might even gain on it too much (despite initial co-E) and not give it enough time for outdiving them. :)

Edited April 23, 2014 by ZaltysZ

[NineLine]

While not quite the same as what you're getting at, I have found that the AI will attempt to RTB if they lose sight of you. Since they are not all-knowing anymore, they rely on more realistic sight and sensor input (modern aircraft). I have had a few instances where the AI and I lost each other in jets to eventually pick him back up 6nm+ away on radar extending. I guess at that point the combination of the ROE setting, and the RWR notification dictate the AI choice to recommit.

 

 

This is actually a known issue with the AI and has been reported as needed some tweaking.

[Frostie]

1. The AI is DCS is not poor. Perhaps not a human, but much better than in any other ww2 sim ive seen. Thats why I made this video, that thing gives people alot of trouble. There are some threads on this.

 

I'm not so sure, I hardly fly the P-51 but have no trouble getting on and staying on the excellent AI Dora's six, the only problem is getting those pea shooters to do enough serious damage, that is where I think most peoples problems lie, turning a plane into a ball of fire is easier in IL-2 etc.

I usually end up changing to a Flanker and drilling it out the sky with cannon in one squeeze. :D

[USARStarkey]

There is a catch here. It is important when diving starts and when ends. P-51 has low drag, but does not shine at low speed acceleration. If diving starts after low speed roll over, Dora, BF109, Spitfire and so on will have advantage over P-51 for a while. P-51 will begin oudiving these planes only at higher speeds. If P-51 does not keep speed high enough and does not begin diving early enough, other planes on its six might even gain on it too much (despite initial co-E) and not give it enough time for outdiving them. :)[/QUOIn

 

Its more complicated than that, starting speed is crucial here. If the planes start their dive from 280 or above, the P-51 has the better acceleration. Between 220 and 280, the 109 and 190 acclerate better, but its virtually indistinguishable. below 220 is where you'll really see the 109 or 190 gain speed better because of P/W. As you start to get above 200mph though drag becomes a much more critical factor in acceleration than P/W. above 280, and especially over 300 the P-51 will gain better than 109s or 190s. I know basically already said that in your post but I just wanted to reiterate.

[ZaltysZ]

Its more complicated than that, starting speed is crucial here.

 

It is even more complicated if we add altitude factor. P-51 has 2 stage supercharger and this gives it "saw-toothed" power vs altitude curve. Depending on other aircraft power curve, relative difference in P/W can be lessened or exaggerated at certain altitudes. If I recall correctly, the best case scenario for P-51 fighting Dora is at 2000m (with not too great advantage for Dora) and above 7000m (the difference becomes insignificant there). The worst case is at 4000-5000m (Dora is scary at this altitude).

[otto]

1.In the video the altitude seems to be under 7000 m. So after the first pass the dora should have climbed.But it dives , throwing away the climb advantage.

From same alt under 7000m If the 190 climbs and the p51 climbs than the p51 risks being outclimbed and shot down.

What USARStarkey shows in the video is great if flying over 7000m or having an altitude advantage.Other than that if you are at same altitude with 190 and that altitude is below 7000 you can do anything but climb.

 

2.There are pilots of different skill.For me the AI is poor.The 190 hits me only if i let it.

 

3.Human vs human the p51 and d9 are well matched.All depends on the pilot.

 

4.You can't outdive a d9 with a mustang the advantage in dive for p51 is just too little(if indeed the p51 has such an advantage). P 47 outdives both of them.

Edited April 24, 2014 by otto

[Pandacat]

There are a number of 1v2 against Dora videos on utube. Try a player name soltyII. He actually implemented similar tactics as starkey but against 2 Doras. At even lower alt, I think. But Starkey did a great job BZing the dora and this video is very educational to pilots with less experience.

It is common knowledge that AI is not perfect. I just hope when we get the game in the future, we won't have broken AI like those we encountered in IL2 1946. I agree we should build a thin margin of inferiority to AI since they don't need spend time to check their engine temp, their airspeed. Their control of aircraft and engine is instanteous. They have pair of eyes on the back of their heads. So if they have access to full aircraft potentials, they can beat aliens in their flying saucers.

[USARStarkey]

1.In the video the altitude seems to be under 7000 m. So after the first pass the dora should have climbed.But it dives , throwing away the climb advantage.

From same alt under 7000m If the 190 climbs and the p51 climbs than the p51 risks being outclimbed and shot down.

What USARStarkey shows in the video is great if flying over 7000m or having an altitude advantage.Other than that if you are at same altitude with 190 and that altitude is below 7000 you can do anything but climb.

 

2.There are pilots of different skill.For me the AI is poor.The 190 hits me only if i let it.

 

3.Human vs human the p51 and d9 are well matched.All depends on the pilot.

 

4.You can't outdive a d9 with a mustang the advantage in dive for p51 is just too little(if indeed the p51 has such an advantage). P 47 outdives both of them.

 

Your understanding of climbing is completely wrong. Zooms are different than sustained climbs. Yes, the 190 dives instead of zooming with me, but that is not what it normally does. If the 190 zooms with you, and you immelman over then level out and repeat the zoom, you will eventually end up stalling out the 190. I do this all the time. Hell, Ill make a new video for you just so you can see. The 190s Climbing advantage does not help it when we are in such vertical climbs. When climbing stright up like that to the edge of a stall, the plane that makes a better lawn dart wins, and the 51 is a better lawn dart. E retention is what I was using in the video not climb rate. E retention is dependent mostly inertia and low drag, which the 51 has more of both.

 

ALSO, the P-47 does not dive faster than a Mustang. I have already showed this but here it is again,

 

"34. Dive – Several full throttle dives were carried out at these heights and In each the Mustang accelerated away from the P-47 and remained in front."

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-afdu.html

Edited April 24, 2014 by USARStarkey

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

dont know,....never had a problem against the Dora.as its AI only, you really can kill it in several ways, at any altitude....your way of doing it, is only one of many, and was definitely not the fastest one...

a bit disturbing, as its a tutorial vid, is the fact, that you used labels, while doing boom and zoom...there were several moments, where i assume, that you would have lost visual on it without the labels...so i dont doubt, that you arent able to do it without labels, but i think for a tutorial vid, it would be better to show how your tactic works when using realistic settings.

also the one stall on top of the climb doesnt fit into a tutorial vid on how to boom n zoom.no offense mate, just my two cents.

[Krupi]

Yes a mustang X vs a P-47 C not the same aircraft we are talking about...

[USARStarkey]

So, P-51X had jury rigged engine mounting that created alot of Drag. Conversely, a P-47C is not the best model of P47 either. The fact remains however that the lowest drag plane will have the highest dive speed and that is the mustang.

 

Anyhow, this thread isn't about the 47 vs 51 dive speed. I'm working on a follow up video where the Dora tries to zoom with me.

Edited April 24, 2014 by USARStarkey

[USARStarkey]

dont know,....never had a problem against the Dora.as its AI only, you really can kill it in several ways, at any altitude....your way of doing it, is only one of many, and was definitely not the fastest one...

a bit disturbing, as its a tutorial vid, is the fact, that you used labels, while doing boom and zoom...there were several moments, where i assume, that you would have lost visual on it without the labels...so i dont doubt, that you arent able to do it without labels, but i think for a tutorial vid, it would be better to show how your tactic works when using realistic settings.

also the one stall on top of the climb doesnt fit into a tutorial vid on how to boom n zoom.no offense mate, just my two cents.

 

Did you even read my previous posts? I used the labels so that people could see in the video. Normally I wouldn't let the thing get so far away as 2nm. Although, using the zoom in DCS you can see stuff out to 10nm. Not sure if using labels is "disturbing", I hope you didn't throw up or anything...Furthermore, one of the reasons it takes so long is that the DM makes it very hard to kill the Dora when your just making passes on it. You have to hose the thing to death. Also, I like how you just assumed I cant do with with the icons off simply because I left them on for the tutorial. The icons are on for for 3 reasons:

 

1. New players can easily track the bandit and understand what is going on so they don't lose it on a youtube video where the compression artifacts might make it very hard to see what I could have seen when i was playing.

2. Allows new players to easily see the rates of closure etc. So that they can be confident in what they saw.

3. This isn't a tutorial on "spot the dot." Nor is a a basic BFM tutorial.

Edited April 24, 2014 by USARStarkey