"Game" difficulty A2A refueling?

[Exorcet]

Because it has to do with your basic flying.

Unlike the P-51 aid, which may be helpful to those without rudder pedals, there's no need to use anything but throttle and stick for refueling.

 

If you can't do it, and don't want to practice so that you can know do it, then just ... don't do it.

 

You may as well ask for a dog-fighting simplification that shows you where to fly. In other words, basic flying skills.

 

Besides the one universal and in some cases trivial reason to not include it (it will take dev time) I don't think there can be a strong argument against.

 

Lacking rudder pedals to me isn't much different than lacking a very precise HOTAS or lacking the experience to set one up. A lot of like to learn how to do things the hard way in DCS, but not everyone will. Even if DCS is hardcore, that doesn't mean the players themselves need to be hardcore.

 

AAR is probably the most difficult thing for me to do at the moment (I'm not looking for an easy mode by the way). I still like to fly long missions. If the map was big enough, those missions might require AAR. If there is someone like me who enjoys those long missions, but can't reliably AAR, they might want a simplified refueling mode to let them get the experience without having it break the mission for them.

 

If you can't do it, and don't want to practice so that you can know do it

 

What about if you can't do it, want to practice, but don't want to have to give up certain missions because you're not fully capable yet? Scalable difficulty/realism isn't going to hurt anyone. If someone, somewhere is using simple AAR, I'll never know.

[Rongor]

Still people manage to refuel successfully. I know I trained weeks for that and I am still not very good at it losing contact several times while refueling.

First I just managed to contact. Then I got fuel for a second. Then I lasted some seconds, now I am up to more then 20. In between I watched tutorial youtube videos. Often there were times I was convinced I would never get this. And now that I get into it, I am sure I did it much quicker than in RL, because it must still be so much challenging in RL. This is what DCS is all about.

I am not saying everybody is made for this. But if this is just not yours, accept it and instead be good at something else.

If you don't accept this, go on training and you might finally achieve what you aim for. If you are sure to have sufficient hardware at hand, you have the best chances. Just don't replace patience with a game mode.

[EtherealN]

I'll get some haters here, but...

 

...if you want to fly longer, but don't want to learn in-flight refueling, there is already a feature to help you: infinite fuel. :P

 

Scrim, perhaps it would help if you were to describe what exactly you envision the aerial refueling aid to do. I don't mean "make it easier", I mean - how exactly would it make it easier?

[Scrim]

Not to mention it may well serve as a training tool for many. Personally, I had too much trouble getting take offs good with the 51, so I had take off assistance set to 100% for quite a while. As I got more comfortable, I dragged it down, and soon I had it on zero. Granted, it looks like a drunken duck is taking off, but I'm taking off.

 

The best thing I could imagine right now would be to have a slider where you can set the distance to fuel boom tolerated by the game to start filling up your tanks. Ought to be very easy to implement, extremely customisable, and very well suited for increasing the skills of the majority of DCS players.

 

 

No hate from me. I know that if nothing has been done about AAR by the time modern fighters like the F/A-18 are released, I'll probably go ahead and tick that option before playing those missions. I have extreme patience and stubbornness about learning DCS, but at a certain point it just goes too far for it to be enjoyable any longer. In a module of a plane with some of the most complicated avionics in the world, it just isn't viable to not extend a helping hand to ensure that a single feature doesn't take more time than everything else combined to learn, unless you're actually trying to distance a lot of people from the thought of buying certain modules, or even all.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Scrim

[EtherealN]

Unfortunately, it's more complex than "distance" to boom. You need to be flying an effective formation, within specific distance parameters. You need to be both stable and within that "zone". But when flying behind a tanker, what kind of margin are you expecting? You don't need many meters to be INSIDE the tanker aircraft.

[McBlemmen]

Something to keep in mind, as well, is the fact that most of the DCS users who would be likely to vote yes, are not forum members.

 

 

Why is that?

[Rongor]

actually the more distant you were allowed, the more difficult would it be to determine stable position visually.

The boom doesn't really matter at all. As EtherealN mentioned, fllying stable formation is the key. Ignore the boom.

[lunaticfringe]

Nice tone there.

 

Wah. The statement was correct.

 

I would hardly call A2A refuelling (or dogfighting) basic flying skills. It just isn't.

 

It is a basic flying skill. I'd invite you to take a look at the attached table of contents for the F-15 RTU take-home manual. AAR; 37 pages into a 176 page manual. And that is RTU; what is actually considered advanced training comes after you're turned over to the squadron.

 

A real world pilot has been quoted on these forums as saying that you have to train until "your hands bleed" to learn it. It is literally speaking one of the most complicated aspects of military aviation.

 

Your definition, and what amounts to an operational definition of what constitutes basics are not the same. BFM is not simple stick and rudder; however, it is the bare level of offensive and defensive effectiveness one must have to be worth releasing to an active duty squadron that may be called into combat; the same with AAR. Pilots may not be fully comfortable behind the boom until they have dozens of connects and disconnects under their belt. Tough s*. If you can't get a plug, you are functionally useless to the Air Force; you can't go to a squadron, you can't go international; hell, you can't even complete vital further portions of your training requiring cross-country.

 

"Basic" is not a statement of difficulty, but level of fundamental airmanship.

Edited April 26, 2014 by lunaticfringe

[Scrim]

EthereaIN: From personal experience, it ought to help. The biggest issue I see most having isn't getting very close, or staying close, but rather staying connected to the boom because A, bad boom operator, and B, issues staying inside the most extreme distances where connection is possible.

 

 

Lunatic: yes, basic capabilities for an F-15 pilot, who's job it is to know those things. Not basic flying knowledge, or basic sim knowledge.

I don't know if that's what you pretend when you play DCS, I'm not in the airforce, so especially the last paragraph there was simply bulls.

It's very obvious that you can do AAR, and regard people who can't as lesser, we got that on your first post. Why don't you get off that high condescending horse of yours?

Edited April 26, 2014 by Scrim

[EtherealN]

EthereaIN: From personal experience, it ought to help. The biggest issue I see most having isn't getting very close, or staying close, but rather staying connected to the boom because A, bad boom operator, and B, issues staying inside the most extreme distances where connection is possible.

 

For A, aren't we then exactly here:

 

The virtual boom operator needs some help/fixing IMHO, after this it shouldn't be quite that hard.

 

For B, that's exactly what I was talking about.

[Scrim]

Perhaps it is. The issue is that until it's fixed, there's just no way of knowing that, and I haven't read that they're about to do anything about it soon, or at all for that matter.

[Rongor]

When I get a disconnect, it is not because of a insufficient boom operating AI but because of me not reacting smooth enough in my exact maintaining of formation.

biggest issue I see most having

I assume you are speaking of most of those guys that already lost patience on this learning task.

[JNASova]

I dont know how to vote.With some practise and right joystick curve set up, air refueling is not problem.I can do it even with 50USD worth stick.I like to do things at realistic way.

Maby YES,for the people who dont want to enter more deeply into this.

[lunaticfringe]

Lunatic: yes, basic capabilities for an F-15 pilot, who's job it is to know those things. Not basic flying knowledge

 

By that argument, formation flight is not basic flying knowledge, so we need a "game" difficulty for formation flying.

 

, or basic sim knowledge.

 

What? It's a military flight simulation; AAR comes with the territory. They have all had it since the software capability has been available. It is thus "basic" sim knowledge for the genre.

 

I don't know if that's what you pretend when you play DCS, I'm not in the airforce, so especially the last paragraph there was simply bulls.

 

The last paragraph was the definition of why GG is correct in stating that it qualifies as a "basic" skill. It has absolutely nothing to do with how people use DCS, and everything to do with what is being simulated- the "basics" of such.

 

You find something difficult. Fine. That's you. What you define as difficult has no consideration as to not being basic with regards to what is being simulated.

 

It's very obvious that you can do AAR, and regard people who can't as lesser, we got that on your first post.

 

Actually, my first post listed off three very specific tools that would help just about anyone acquire the skills required to get on the boom successfully, and I would invite you to find the basis of your "lesser" contention in it. It wasn't until the second when the fun began, coupling reality with your lack of "basic" skills (using radar to discern KC speed) and knowledge on the subject matter at hand.

 

"Stop turning! I don't care if you're getting closer to the IADS! You're making life hard on me!"

 

Why don't you get off that high condescending horse of yours?

 

Condescension? Really? This from the guy saying "I can't do something, thus it can't be classified as 'basic' airmanship"? That takes a *big* ego.

[Scrim]

No, I don't call it basic flying skills, because actual, non pretend pilots don't call it a basic thing. That's about all I can be bothered to write, since you're pretty much just being a troll.

[GGTharos]

Actual, non-pretend pilots do. Anecdotes aside, all the BFM required for AAR is a basic flying skill.

 

Almost all the cues you need to do it successfully are in the game. The virtual boomie just needs his fix and you need a well tuned stick, and from there on, practice.

 

No, I don't call it basic flying skills, because actual, non pretend pilots don't call it a basic thing. That's about all I can be bothered to write, since you're pretty much just being a troll.

[Cali]

Wow, some people said it isn't part of basic flying! They have no idea what real pilots have to go through during their training. Flying in formation is basic flying and learning how to a2a refuel is a must and basic flying helps a lot with that!

[winz]

Well, yes, but lets be honest, most sim pilots suck at what is irl considered basic flying ;)

I voted yes, this kind of scalability is imho a good thing. On one side it allows people who do not want to spend time to learn 'basic flying' to enjoy this aspect of the sim, on the other hand it doesn't affects those capable.

 

On the other hand, how high on the priority list something like this should this be? imho somewhere at the bottom.

[lunaticfringe]

Well, yes, but lets be honest, most sim pilots suck at what is irl considered basic flying ;)

 

That, frankly, is the largest argument for *not* depreciating the ability to get it done.

 

The "aids" that Scrim mentions are technical in nature; players do not all own the same equipment and do not have rudders or such available. However, what one lacks in hardware does not supplant the quality of one's skill. Someone who doesn't own rudders, but are adept at the basics in the P-51, would do just fine with a little bit of time to adjust having been given said pedals and deactivating the aid. The same can not be said for the unskilled; give them rudders, and they'll get into more trouble than they already do.

 

The flip side of this is the fact that rudders are *not* required for AAR. One can refuel with just a stick- that is, without a throttle, if they are patient and follow the cues. So really, how "hard" is it? How does it functionally compare to the aids that are already in place?

 

It doesn't.

 

On one side it allows people who do not want to spend time to learn 'basic flying' to enjoy this aspect of the sim, on the other hand it doesn't affects those capable.

 

The problem with "scalability" is the level of commiserate gripe. If someone wanted to honestly sit down and look at the amount of complaining that takes place on this forum about tactics and employment with regards to the aircraft in question, you would find that the majority of the issues stem from voids in simple airmanship. Too fast, too slow, not being able to read the right cues, or use the tools they have in front of them to solve basic problems in the air.

 

This extends into all aspects. The weaker your airmanship, the lower your performance in ACM. The less effective you are tactically. The higher the level of difficulty you have making gun runs. Your poor rejoin skills, or, when flying carrier ops, how horrible you are behind the boat.

 

But note, it's the same old story- "don't hate the player, hate the game". It's never the actual person who is manning the hardware's fault. "Oh, we need an easy mode- this is too hard". And it procreates. This difficult thing gets a fix, thus this thing which is hard, yet unrelated, must have a fix, too.

 

Because "fairness".

 

If you are operationally useless to Blue Air, fly Red Air, or, aircraft based from behind the Curtain. The Su-27S (which is the variant getting the PFM), the MiG-29s, the upcoming MiG-21- none of these aircraft in default trim have AAR capability. So deal with it. Or fly short missions. But don't quantify your lack of basic airmanship to something being difficult and needing a fix, because all that is going to do is become your crutch every time you can't do something.

[Scrim]

Wow, some people said it isn't part of basic flying! They have no idea what real pilots have to go through during their training. Flying in formation is basic flying and learning how to a2a refuel is a must and basic flying helps a lot with that!

 

Yes, real pilots. And not just any pilots, but military pilots, mostly fighter pilots. You simply can not get higher up on the skill level required than that.

 

 

People who call AAR a feat of basic flying skills really need to get out of the house and get a perspective on people, and life in general. To seriously call it basic skills in the context of a civilian, entertainment PC flight simulator simply because it's considered basic for the very elite of IRL pilots is quite frankly pathetic.

[TAW_Blaze]

I'd call it basic but that doesn't mean it's easy at all. It's difficult, but I could give you a number of comparisons that are way more difficult, albeit those are regarded mostly as advanced skills even by real life standards.

 

On topic, currently we have a trim that has zero scalability, it either does too much of what you want or the exact opposite, I speak from using no curves with a TMW it's impossible to fly straight behind the tanker, trimmed or not, you need to constantly pitch up/down with a strong grip and balance out the altitude change so you're still within the boom limits. Gotta add though if you try to trim it, at the moment you're only making it harder for yourself.

 

IMO it's just moot to bother with AAR while the trim is completely malfunctional. You might be able to hold it straight with some degree of curve or using autopilot, but that's pretty lame. Myself, I'm trying to figure out how I could fit in a stick extension, but the space is limited.

Edited April 27, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Scrim]

Autopilot goes offline the moment you open the tank lid.

[winz]

That, frankly, is the largest argument for *not* depreciating the ability to get it done.

 

The "aids" that Scrim mentions are technical in nature; players do not all own the same equipment and do not have rudders or such available. However, what one lacks in hardware does not supplant the quality of one's skill. Someone who doesn't own rudders, but are adept at the basics in the P-51, would do just fine with a little bit of time to adjust having been given said pedals and deactivating the aid. The same can not be said for the unskilled; give them rudders, and they'll get into more trouble than they already do.

 

The flip side of this is the fact that rudders are *not* required for AAR. One can refuel with just a stick- that is, without a throttle, if they are patient and follow the cues. So really, how "hard" is it? How does it functionally compare to the aids that are already in place?

 

It doesn't.

If you open up the options menu, there are lots of options that don't have anything with hardware limitation. Radio Assits, Crash Recovery, Easy coms, Unlimited fuel/ammo, immortality, g-effects....etc.. The sim is full of options available to scale the difficulty. Why? Because this is not a career path but an entertainment SW that is played by people in their free time. And different people are able/want to dedicate different amount of time to the sim. Some follow full checklists during start-up, some use the win+home cheat.. And for ED all these customers are valuable. That's why we have game modes, and scalable difficulty. And in this context the option for scalable AAR dificulty makes perfect sense.

 

Yes, it is possible to learn AAR even with basic stick...But I don't really see how is that a valid point...Because you can complete a mission without immortality/external views/unlimited ammo, but those options are there for people that might find them usefull, and for those who enjoy the sim with them.

 

The problem with "scalability" is the level of commiserate gripe. If someone wanted to honestly sit down and look at the amount of complaining that takes place on this forum about tactics and employment with regards to the aircraft in question, you would find that the majority of the issues stem from voids in simple airmanship. Too fast, too slow, not being able to read the right cues, or use the tools they have in front of them to solve basic problems in the air.

 

This extends into all aspects. The weaker your airmanship, the lower your performance in ACM. The less effective you are tactically. The higher the level of difficulty you have making gun runs. Your poor rejoin skills, or, when flying carrier ops, how horrible you are behind the boat.

Yes, so what? For some people this is not the be all-end all. And they don't want to spend hours studying materials and then spend hours (days/weeks) in sim perfecting their skill-set, because for some people this piece of SW is just a game they play for pure enjoyment. So person who is using labels, unlimited ammo and no g-effects is a worse airman then someone who is flying without assits..so what? The only thing that is important is if the person is enjoying his time spent playing this sim.

 

But note, it's the same old story- "don't hate the player, hate the game". It's never the actual person who is manning the hardware's fault. "Oh, we need an easy mode- this is too hard". And it procreates. This difficult thing gets a fix, thus this thing which is hard, yet unrelated, must have a fix, too.

 

Because "fairness".

What fix? No-one is talking about changing AAR and making it easier. I think every sane human ticking a 'easy AAR' checkbox realize that they are using an assist. It's not the first assits available in the sim...

Edited April 27, 2014 by winz

[Exorcet]

...if you want to fly longer, but don't want to learn in-flight refueling, there is already a feature to help you: infinite fuel.

 

Finite fuel is easier to handle, it also has a bit of an effect on the mission. I think there is a fair difference between infinite fuel and an assisted/automated AAR.

 

 

 

... So deal with it. Or fly short missions. But don't quantify your lack of basic airmanship to something being difficult and needing a fix, because all that is going to do is become your crutch every time you can't do something.

 

I think this misses the point. There is no reason to deal with anything because this is a simulator and not reality. Technically, if you don't like something you can change it to however you see fit.

 

This also isn't about needing a fix. It's no simpler than AAR being difficult at times, so why not add something to lower the difficulty for those who would like such a thing. DCS is great, you can use it to come as close to a real pilot as you'd like to be without actually joining an air force. You can also use it to fly an indestructible plane with more missiles than something out of Ace Combat and try to take on the militaries of every nation on Earth by yourself. Both uses are equally valid, and so is every step in between.

[Cali]

Yes, real pilots. And not just any pilots, but military pilots, mostly fighter pilots. You simply can not get higher up on the skill level required than that.

 

 

People who call AAR a feat of basic flying skills really need to get out of the house and get a perspective on people, and life in general. To seriously call it basic skills in the context of a civilian, entertainment PC flight simulator simply because it's considered basic for the very elite of IRL pilots is quite frankly pathetic.

 

A lot of people need to get out of the house and do other things. It gets bad when updates and things are coming out.....some people sit in front of their computer pressing F5 all day long. I get that flying formation with another jet isn't the easiest thing to do, but it's not that hard either....it just takes some practice. I also get that flying computer sims most people want it to be easy because they either don't want to take the time to learn it or they don't have the time to learn it. That's why things are dumbed down.

 

Go online and see how people fly. I know a few years back people didn't care if they lived or died, they would still press on you even if they had 2-3 missiles coming at them. I haven't flown much in the last 18 months, but I can still a2a refuel, but I have been flying for years. Another thing is how many online missions have a2a refueling or even need it?