fitness88 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Can someone please explain in laymen's terms how AFM affects takeoffs, flight, and landings compared to the original flight modelling. ie: F-15C new AFM modelling in ver. 1.2.8 vs. ver. 1.2.7 [without AFM]. I've read some of the posts but all that's mention is technical. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey45 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 More realistic flight. The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. "Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.." https://ko-fi.com/joey45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobek Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Try the free Su-25. If the technical stuff doesn't make sense to you, trying it out might be the best course of action to get an understanding. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortex225 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 In very simple terms, the calculations required to simulate the physics of flight are more detailed and robust with the new PFM. The net effect, to get to the point, is a more authentic flight experience. In this way, the aircraft should feel more like the real thing when you're flying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djent33 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 It has a vary enjoyable quality when landing and flying as opposed to f***k it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Can someone please explain in laymen's terms how AFM affects takeoffs, flight, and landings compared to the original flight modelling. ie: F-15C new AFM modelling in ver. 1.2.8 vs. ver. 1.2.7 [without AFM]. I've read some of the posts but all that's mention is technical. Thank you. Takeoff - The plane has mass while on the runway. With SFM, you could input extreme left/right rudder commands the plane would instantly obey without any secondary effects. AFM creates a more realistic response, the plane doesn't change directions instantly. The weight on the wheels is also modeled which has an effect on traction, stability, and the planes orientation (you can roll the plane over like a top heavy car). Landing - Similar to take off. The most noticeable difference is the instant of touch down. The SFM model basically turned off the aerodynamics when the plane successfully landed and ignored how the plane actually landed. AFM models all the forces all the time, and reaction forces on landing are considered. You won't magically stick the ground when coming in too hard with AFM, unlike SFM which breaks reality. In flight, weight balance matters and as a consequence so does trim in roll and yaw. You also feel the weight of the plane in maneuvers, and initial reactions (like how quickly pitch changes with max stick back) are different. Edge of the envelope flying is completely different. Stalls during maneuvers can lead to spins instead of just a scripted loss of altitude. In my experience there isn't really any point where the difference between AFM and SFM isn't seen. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitness88 Posted May 4, 2014 Author Share Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) Takeoff - The plane has mass while on the runway. With SFM, you could input extreme left/right rudder commands the plane would instantly obey without any secondary effects. AFM creates a more realistic response, the plane doesn't change directions instantly. The weight on the wheels is also modeled which has an effect on traction, stability, and the planes orientation (you can roll the plane over like a top heavy car). Landing - Similar to take off. The most noticeable difference is the instant of touch down. The SFM model basically turned off the aerodynamics when the plane successfully landed and ignored how the plane actually landed. AFM models all the forces all the time, and reaction forces on landing are considered. You won't magically stick the ground when coming in too hard with AFM, unlike SFM which breaks reality. In flight, weight balance matters and as a consequence so does trim in roll and yaw. You also feel the weight of the plane in maneuvers, and initial reactions (like how quickly pitch changes with max stick back) are different. Edge of the envelope flying is completely different. Stalls during maneuvers can lead to spins instead of just a scripted loss of altitude. In my experience there isn't really any point where the difference between AFM and SFM isn't seen. So disabling 'natural head movement' and/or 'head shift movements on/off' does not affect AFM appreciation? The Mig 29 I take it does not have AFM. Thank you Exorcet and to all. Edited May 4, 2014 by fitness88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus_Lazarus Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Much more twitchy Will fall over while taxi-ing VERY easily Flying at high altitude, well, don't make any sudden moves or you'll be violently spinning and spiraling downwards. Flying at low speed , same thing . Engines seems to have gotten a boost. Making sustained turns can get a bit weird (same speed same joystick position same everything, but after a few seconds > spin out of control ) Landing, a lot harder Wheelbrakes , they don't do much anymore Air brake at low speeds , well, same thing doesn't do much Out of the top of my head ^ [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey45 Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 I've never fallen over while taxing. Landings are easier for me. The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. "Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.." https://ko-fi.com/joey45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitness88 Posted May 4, 2014 Author Share Posted May 4, 2014 Much more twitchy Will fall over while taxi-ing VERY easily Flying at high altitude, well, don't make any sudden moves or you'll be violently spinning and spiraling downwards. Flying at low speed , same thing . Engines seems to have gotten a boost. Making sustained turns can get a bit weird (same speed same joystick position same everything, but after a few seconds > spin out of control ) Landing, a lot harder Wheelbrakes , they don't do much anymore Air brake at low speeds , well, same thing doesn't do much Out of the top of my head ^ Yikes!...and pilots find this appealing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagrum Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Yikes!...and pilots find this appealing? That question does not make sense ... ;o) The question should be, "and pilots find this more realistic behaviour appealing?" and the answer will be most likely be "yes". :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitness88 Posted May 4, 2014 Author Share Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) That question does not make sense ... ;o) The question should be, "and pilots find this more realistic behaviour appealing?" and the answer will be most likely be "yes". :D And I would agree with you if in fact it is realistic behaviour...that's why I appreciate everyone's feedback. Based on some opinions it would seem that some feel you are losing more realistic behavior than you are gaining with the first offering of F-15C AFM Just read this article, interesting: http://www.belsimtek.com/news/217/ Edited May 4, 2014 by fitness88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arraamis Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Much more twitchy Will fall over while taxi-ing VERY easily Flying at high altitude, well, don't make any sudden moves or you'll be violently spinning and spiraling downwards. Flying at low speed , same thing . Engines seems to have gotten a boost. Making sustained turns can get a bit weird (same speed same joystick position same everything, but after a few seconds > spin out of control ) Landing, a lot harder Wheelbrakes , they don't do much anymore Air brake at low speeds , well, same thing doesn't do much Out of the top of my head ^ Very accurate layman's description :thumbup: I like the dynamic response of the AFM, but the sensitivity needs to be just a little more forgiving. I'm also finding that engine shutdowns occur more often, (not stalls but complete engine shutdowns) especially during rigorous combat and aerobatic maneuvers. Bottom-line: Practice up on your in-flight engine recovery routines and spin recovery. Because with the new F-15C AFM, you'll be using that skill frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitness88 Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Quote: Originally Posted by Maximus_Lazarus Much more twitchy Will fall over while taxi-ing VERY easily Flying at high altitude, well, don't make any sudden moves or you'll be violently spinning and spiraling downwards. Flying at low speed , same thing . Engines seems to have gotten a boost. Making sustained turns can get a bit weird (same speed same joystick position same everything, but after a few seconds > spin out of control ) Landing, a lot harder Wheelbrakes , they don't do much anymore Air brake at low speeds , well, same thing doesn't do much Out of the top of my head ^ Very accurate layman's description I like the dynamic response of the AFM, but the sensitivity needs to be just a little more forgiving. I'm also finding that engine shutdowns occur more often, (not stalls but complete engine shutdowns) especially during rigorous combat and aerobatic maneuvers. Bottom-line: Practice up on your in-flight engine recovery routines and spin recovery. Because with the new F-15C AFM, you'll be using that skill frequently. From what you posted sounds like the new F-15C AFM needs a lot of adjusting before it can be called realistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanmancz Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 It's a lot more realistic than the SFM that used to be there in 127-. Sure it's still in beta so tweaks are to be expected but the main thing about AFM/PFM - dynamically calculated behaviour is there. The aircraft just "feels alive" as opposed to the static modeling of the SFM that we used to have. It's actually pretty amazing - the new flight model IS a huge improvement over the old one, no question about that. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Elite, Intel i9 9900K, Fractal Design Kelvin S36, Zotac GTX 1070 8GB AMP Extreme, 32GB DDR4 HyperX CL15 Predator Series @ 3000 MHz, Kingston SSD 240GB (OS), Samsung 970 EVO 1TB M.2 NVMe (sim), Fractal Design Define R5 Black Window, EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G2, Win 10 Home x64, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals, Thrustmaster MFD Cougar Pack, TrackIR (DelanClip), 3x 27" BenQ EW2740L, Oculus Rift S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey45 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 If you fall over while taxing then you are going to fast and or turning to sharp... The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. "Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.." https://ko-fi.com/joey45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secret1962 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 It's all good, except instantaneous spinning... just watch f15 videos in youtube.. in DCS you can't pull a little without starting spinning around, dammit. Also you can pull down like crazy. Something is definitely still wrong there :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 From what you posted sounds like the new F-15C AFM needs a lot of adjusting before it can be called realistic I think Maximus' post was exaggerated. I've never even come close to falling over while taxiing. You would have to deliberately try to fall over to do it. At normal taxi speed, the F-15 is rock stable. The F-15 does seem to be a little unstable with some hard maneuvers, but it's nothing you can't prevent after flying on the limit a few times to adjust. It's much better than scripted SFM stalls in any case. Wheelbrakes and airbrake do plenty. They just not reverse rockets like they were with SFM. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitness88 Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Thank you all for your feedback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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