APG-63 Discussion

[Frostie]

Ever flown a real plane? There are a lot of buttons to push, checklists to follow and radios to tune. In fact it's a huge part of the workload.

 

Locking someone up on the radar and cranking until your amraam goes pitbul doesn't make you a fighter pilot.

Shooting AMRAAMs probably makes you more of a fighter pilot than pushing lots of buttons, following checklists and tuning radios does. They require zero skillset as they are just learned monotonous procedures and in the big picture of air combat they have a very small place.

[RIPTIDE]

The more buttons to push the more hardcore.

[TAW_Blaze]

Bind them to the HOTAS then. Clicking buttons with the mouse is essentially no different to using keyboard commands, except for as you said the learning. You just proved what I said because you probably wouldn't bother to fly something if you had to learn keyboard commands.

 

In my case, I simply could not/cannot fly the way I enjoy in an FC3 aircraft at present. The use of keyboard and missing systems just remove any sense of fun and enjoyment in seconds and lead to nothing but frustration. You and many others feel differently, and that's fine, just realise your view is not shared by everyone, in fact there are more out there who share the opposite view than you may realise.

[srky]

How about making all those avionics as real as possible while having those switches animated, not necessarily clickable in the same time? Both would be perfect, though animation in that case would be more valuable in combat.

[Frostie]

Same !!!! i want a most render than actually for APG 63 ^^

 

try this i like it http://home1.stofanet.dk/baskat/mainpage.html its a interactive APG 73 (on the F-18) and i dreams to have same thing on F-15c ^^ .

The only difference I see is more options for narrowing azimuth and bar scans. What FC APG-63 gives you that this doesn't is your ground speed and TAS, missile timer as well as closure speed, heading and aspect reading on the target, also displayed on the radar is bearing to the target and range, none of this is available on that APG-73 demo.

 

Though the ability to click all the buttons is cool . ;)

[TAW_Blaze]

How about making all those avionics as real as possible while having those switches animated, not necessarily clickable in the same time? Both would be perfect, though animation in that case would be more valuable in combat.

 

The reason I said being clickable is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with system functionality. Being clickable is bacically having a click event on the object and having an animation binded to it. Making an avionics system clickable is essentially nothing compared to actually creating the system and making it work. Currently they are stuck at not having time to do the latter.

[howie87]

Shooting AMRAAMs probably makes you more of a fighter pilot than pushing lots of buttons, following checklists and tuning radios does. They require zero skillset as they are just learned monotonous procedures and in the big picture of air combat they have a very small place.

 

Sorry, but FC3 is for the instant gratification air quake guys.

 

I hate to burst your bubble but everything about aviation is just learned monotonous procedures. Even your precious air combat (gasp - oh no he didn't!). That's why people have to train for hundreds of hours until they get it right on a consistent basis. Although of course in real life, you'll do hundred of hours of 'pushing buttons' and following procedures before you EVER get to fire ANYTHING.

 

FC3 is for the guys who like to push one big red button repeatedly, while doing very little else.

[Frostie]

Sorry, but FC3 is for the instant gratification air quake guys.

 

I hate to burst your bubble but everything about aviation is just learned monotonous procedures. Even your precious air combat (gasp - oh no he didn't!).

Cool story.

[Eddie]

Shooting AMRAAMs probably makes you more of a fighter pilot than pushing lots of buttons, following checklists and tuning radios does. They require zero skillset as they are just learned monotonous procedures and in the big picture of air combat they have a very small place.

 

Without trying to start some childish back and forth (although knowing his place it'll end up that way regardless). What do all actual fighter pilots do every day? Yep, buttons, procedures, checklist and many other aspects of TTPs.

 

And if you think everything but pressing the weapon release button is monotonous procedures that require zero skill set with a very small place in air combat, then I'll simply say you do not understand those procedures or their purpose.

 

But at the end of the day, you find the simple act of firing a weapon fun and don't get/enjoy the TTPs. Well guess what, many others get their enjoyment and fun from learning, practicing, and trying to master said TTPs, and not from "shooting AMRAAMs". Especially when the process involved in the shooting of said virtual AMRAAM is much different to reality anyway.

 

What I'll never "get" is why those of you who don't have the interest in or get enjoyment from the learning and use of real world TTPs have to constantly jump on, argue with, and in many cases attempt to berate those who do. Especially when the situation isn't (normally) the same the other way around.

[Frostie]

Without trying to start some childish back and forth (although knowing his place it'll end up that way regardless). What do all actual fighter pilots do every day? Yep, buttons, procedures, checklist and many other aspects of TTPs.

 

And if you think everything but pressing the weapon release button is monotonous procedures that require zero skill set with a very small place in air combat, then I'll simply say you do not understand those procedures or their purpose.

 

But at the end of the day, you find the simple act of firing a weapon fun and don't get/enjoy the TTPs. Well guess what, many others get their enjoyment and fun from learning, practicing, and trying to master said TTPs, and not from "shooting AMRAAMs". Especially when the process involved in the shooting of said virtual AMRAAM is much different to reality anyway.

 

What I'll never "get" is why those of you who don't have the interest in or get enjoyment from the learning and use of real world TTPs have to constantly jump on, argue with, and in many cases attempt to berate those who do. Especially when the situation isn't (normally) the same the other way around.

You have that the wrong way around, most people here love to press buttons and follow procedure, its just that those that wish to belittle FC3 love to beat their clickable chests.

[Eddie]

Bind them to the HOTAS then. Clicking buttons with the mouse is essentially no different to using keyboard commands' date=' except for as you said the learning. You just proved what I said because you probably wouldn't bother to fly something if you had to learn keyboard commands.[/quote']

 

That would be even worse. HOTAS is for essential mission systems functions required in combat. Not general flight systems functions.

 

To you maybe they are no different, but to others they are very different. For example, personally "learning" the A-10Cs systems was very easy, because every switch is exactly where I'd expect to see it and does what I'd expect (for the most part). However the same where rather than just clicking the switch I'd have to learn a keyboard command, or some random HOTAS assignment is just unnecessarily complex. Of course I recognise that as I've been working on and around military aircraft my entire adult life I'm not exactly the norm, and for your average gamer maybe key commands are more familiar. But I know plenty more like me.

 

And there is also the fact that for anyone to learn enough key commands or HOTAS assignments to operate something like the A-10C or Ka50 fluently would be utterly impractical, if not impossible.

[Eddie]

You have that the wrong way around, most people here love to press buttons and follow procedure, its just that those that wish to belittle FC3 love to beat their clickable chests.

 

In some cases I'd agree. However do you not recognise that equally it's often the case that when someone from outside the Lockon clique criticises FC regarding its limitations get attacked/excessively put down by hose who enjoy the FC products. He fact that you choose the language "belittle FC3" speaks volumes to me there.

 

I see it often, anyone who doesn't fly on the public servers, or who enjoys flying in a more realistic manner is someone regarded as boring and/or some kind of wannabe fighter pilot, or otherwise disagreeable. Whereas in the reverse situation those of us who do do thing a bit more "hardcore" (to use the colloquialism) simply don't care how anyone else chooses to fly. And trust me, that is the case. There are some bad eggs of course, but they are the exception.

[USARStarkey]

You have that the wrong way around, most people here love to press buttons and follow procedure, its just that those that wish to belittle FC3 love to beat their clickable chests.

 

I agree completely. I enjoy both the "simple" FC3 and the Grognardian A-10C and P-51. Pushing buttons and doing procedures is immensely entertaining and educational, but there is plenty going on in FC3. Even without all the buttons, there is a complex enough BVR environment to have fun with. And TBH, alot of the "procedures/buttons" have nothing to do with your ability to take down another aircraft if were speaking about the modern ships. I'd certainly be down for a fully-clickable F-15, but I dont think that without that I'd call it "simple." Furthermore, I'd like to know exactly what FC3 is being compared to. All the aircraft in game that are on the Max level are mud-movers/helos/or prop fighters. So if you want to do Fighters you only have FC3.....perhaps I just dont enjoy doing ground attack as much as I do Air-Air? I supposed you could compare it to Falcon BMS, but none of the button clicking going on in that game is pertinent to succeeding in BVR or WVR combat.

[TAW_Blaze]

FC3 is for the guys who like to push one big red button repeatedly, while doing very little else.

 

That's bullshit hands down. Training multiship tactics and trying to perfect them is apparently "little" compared to puling the trigger. :megalol:

[sorcer3r]

I supposed you could compare it to Falcon BMS, but none of the button clicking going on in that game is pertinent to succeeding in BVR or WVR combat.

 

Without clicking buttons you won't get in the air in that "game". :smartass:

[Frostie]

In some cases I'd agree. However do you not recognise that equally it's often the case that when someone from outside the Lockon clique criticises FC regarding its limitations get attacked/excessively put down by hose who enjoy the FC products. He fact that you choose the language "belittle FC3" speaks volumes to me there.

 

I see it often, anyone who doesn't fly on the public servers, or who enjoys flying in a more realistic manner is someone regarded as boring and/or some kind of wannabe fighter pilot, or otherwise disagreeable. Whereas in the reverse situation those of us who do do thing a bit more "hardcore" (to use the colloquialism) simply don't care how anyone else chooses to fly. And trust me, that is the case. There are some bad eggs of course, but they are the exception.

I don't see anyone labelling people as boring for wanting more procedure or having the opportunity to apply more of it. In fact I see the opposite, people wanting more put into FC or added to DCS so more simulation can be achieved.

 

What I do see is a lot of labelling of FC3 as a game compared to other sims/clickable products when in actual fact these clickable products are games too, and in a lot of cases are treated more so by those that treat FC seriously. I agree with you regarding the more in depth the sim is the easier it is for you to apply your procedures, and I can understand your point of view with regards to not getting what you want out of FC especially after being so deeply A-10C orientated. But those that hanker after a fast mover and don't enjoy or don't have the love for BMS need something to use, but for them to be labelled as not so serious gamers by those that think being able to click several buttons on screen with a mouse makes you qualified, that is what presses the wrong buttons.

[USARStarkey]

Without clicking buttons you won't get in the air in that "game". :smartass:

 

OH NO! I had to click some switches and start the engine and electronics..............fun, but It doesn't require skill, unless you cant read. That is equivalent to saying that since I don't have to turn the keys in a racing game like assetto corsa, that the game therefore is simple. sure, a F-16 has alot more to its start-up, but its nothing more than pushing the right switches in the right order....doesn't that make you feel special? You can follow instructions!

[GGTharos]

In real life you are checking systems during the start-up. In the game, those systems will never fail.

[Hellfire257]

Sorry, but FC3 is for the instant gratification air quake guys.

 

I guess that's why we see so many Ace Combat and HAWX players, right? Right!?

 

That statement is as ridiculous as the assertion that interactive cockpits mean nothing.

[sorcer3r]

In real life you are checking systems during the start-up. In the game, those systems will never fail.

 

From what I have heard in some falcon weeks some system checks will be required.

[USARStarkey]

In real life you are checking systems during the start-up. In the game, those systems will never fail.

 

Not sure if this was a direct reply to me or not. In any case, the point I was making still stands. System failures or not, it doesn't take a genius to go through a checklist and flip some switches in a certain order. Don't misunderstand, I love fully clickable cockpits and I am a fan maximum detail on aircraft modeling. I do not think that in most cases it has much bearing on the results of combat unless were discussing old WW2 fighters managing prop pitch before the age of the constant speed propeller.

[*Rage*]

Ever flown a real plane? There are a lot of buttons to push, checklists to follow and radios to tune. In fact it's a huge part of the workload.

 

Locking someone up on the radar and cranking until your amraam goes pitbul doesn't make you a fighter pilot.

 

Actually yes. I have flown a real plane.

 

No, because many fundemental and aircraft basic systems are not there.

 

 

 

Indeed, but anyone who does attempt to use real world TTPs in FC3 aircraft will quickly run into barriers caused by missing systems and funtionality. Yes you can employ many real world TTPs (not that I've ever seen anyone doing it in the FC3 environment, although I know at least the 44th do), but there are a lot of hurdles to overcome and some that you can't.

 

I sense from your wording that you're trying to imply that Howie just wants to click switches without actually emplying any actual realism. Well that is actually not the case, he's in the 476th and that isn't exactly an option. ;)

 

The thing with your remark is that most people in the DCS/FC community don't actually know what real TTPs involve, and even those that think thery are flying "realistically" are usually doing nothing of the sort. Even in the 476th we're using little more than 50% of the real world TTPs, due to a combination of practicality and the art of what's possible in DCS, and what's actually enjoyable. But the fact is, that if you do truely want to fly in anything approaching a genuinely realistic manner, then you need many of those "buttons" and systems available, even if you only click them one or twice in a flight.

 

Something as basic as correct approach and landing procedures, or tactical formation flight are made much harder to perform or even impossble without TACAN and a working HSI for example.

 

 

 

Sorry but that just rubbish. Being forced to use arbitrary keyboard commands is just simply unacceptable to many simmers, myself included. Clickable cockpit does not have to mean increased system fidelity, it just means being able to use relevant switches in the cockpit to manipluate the systems that are available. Clicking the actual switch corresponding to a given function is considerably easier to learn than a radom key command. In my case learning some random key command is nigh on impossible, but tell me to do anything with the switches in the right place in the cockpit on my screen and that is easy, because it actually makes sense and corresponds with the actual system and its operation.

 

Clickable cockpit does not have to equal DCS A-10C level system modelling. For example, Falcon 4.0 had a clickable cockpit on release, but the systems fidelity was actually far less than in FC3 aircraft. It's the lack of that gamplay element that turns many away from FC3, not necessarily the level of systems modelling.

 

In my case, I simply could not/cannot fly the way I enjoy in an FC3 aircraft at present. The use of keyboard and missing systems just remove any sense of fun and enjoyment in seconds and lead to nothing but frustration. You and many others feel differently, and that's fine, just realise your view is not shared by everyone, in fact there are more out there who share the opposite view than you may realise.

 

I would argue that most, myself included, value the flight model and 'sense of flight' over anything clickable. Right now the F15 probably has the most advanced flight model of anything in DCS. The Su27 is about to follow. Your perception of realism is concerned with checklists and procedure. Others will gain satisfaction from a beautiful flight model and flying as a squad.

 

Sorry, but FC3 is for the instant gratification air quake guys.

 

I hate to burst your bubble but everything about aviation is just learned monotonous procedures. Even your precious air combat (gasp - oh no he didn't!). That's why people have to train for hundreds of hours until they get it right on a consistent basis. Although of course in real life, you'll do hundred of hours of 'pushing buttons' and following procedures before you EVER get to fire ANYTHING.

 

FC3 is for the guys who like to push one big red button repeatedly, while doing very little else.

 

Some of the multiplayer servers end up like that. Others absolutely not. The 51st has organised fantastic events before which will take you much closer to a real life battle simulation. The recent GCI event which was called off due to network issues is a great example. GCI for red and for blue, multiple flights coordinating together on comms vis different channels. A2A protecting A2G. Ground assets which must be destroyed etc etc. I find that much more of a simulation, much more fun, and much more exhilarating. That was all possible because of FC3 (and DCS of course and CA). If you want a true checklist/procedure simulation..would you prefer to wake up on saturday am at 0600 so you can fly by 0900? Walk around in DCS with a torch and inspect the plane yourself before flight? Have a simulated argument with the crew chief? I wouldn't. Im not saying it would be wrong to, just belittling those that would rather focus on the main course comes off as snobbish and a little ignorant.

 

Without trying to start some childish back and forth (although knowing his place it'll end up that way regardless). What do all actual fighter pilots do every day? Yep, buttons, procedures, checklist and many other aspects of TTPs.

 

And if you think everything but pressing the weapon release button is monotonous procedures that require zero skill set with a very small place in air combat, then I'll simply say you do not understand those procedures or their purpose.

 

But at the end of the day, you find the simple act of firing a weapon fun and don't get/enjoy the TTPs. Well guess what, many others get their enjoyment and fun from learning, practicing, and trying to master said TTPs, and not from "shooting AMRAAMs". Especially when the process involved in the shooting of said virtual AMRAAM is much different to reality anyway.

 

What I'll never "get" is why those of you who don't have the interest in or get enjoyment from the learning and use of real world TTPs have to constantly jump on, argue with, and in many cases attempt to berate those who do. Especially when the situation isn't (normally) the same the other way around.

 

See above. People aren't born that hardcore. As they gain experience they might. Being elitist about what you perceive as important only serves to shrink a niche market down further.

 

I guess that's why we see so many Ace Combat and HAWX players, right? Right!?

 

That statement is as ridiculous as the assertion that interactive cockpits mean nothing.

 

+1

Edited May 17, 2014 by ///Rage

[janpitor]

I must say that for me the clickable cockpit is essential, exactly because I hate learning complex keyboard combinations. It just take a lot of immersion away. As much as I could not imagine to fly without freetrack anymore, I am not willing to fly without clickable cockpit. Su-27 is one of my most favourite aircraft, but until it gets clickable, I would not enjoy it enough.

 

I know a lot of people see it the other way, but you can not say it is useless just because you don't use it. For me it is more important than super complex flight model, especially if the a/c is not involved in close combat often

[howie87]

OK. I understand some guys like FC3 and maybe I was a little harsh. I do own it afterall, since I bought it to get my fast jet until the F/A-18C is released.

 

The main thing with clickable cockpits for me is that I enjoy feeling like I could jump into a real A-10, understand most of the systems and start it up from scratch.

 

Now I can do the same with all the jets in the FC3, but I would have no idea how to do it in their real life counterparts, neither do I understand the workings of the systems in those aircraft, or the layout of their cockpits. I just press some buttons on the keyboard and they come to life and go into combat mode when I press '2' or '3'.

 

That's what makes DCS a simulation to me and FC3 a game. I feel at home in the A-10C cockpit. I can touch every button and turn every dial and it responds in a manner that is realistic. In FC3 I feel like a man with no hands in a generic aircraft where pressing the same keyboard commands will do something similar regardless of which aircraft it is that I happen to be in. I can see the altimeter but I can't touch it. I can't tune those radios either, but it doesn't matter because they magically tune to whatever frequency I need. I don't even have to know the what that frequency is!

 

FC3 aircraft just feel devoid of character and over simplified to me. The new flight models are a step in the right direction and I enjoy flying the F-15 now it 'feels' different to the others but it will never be a simulation to me until the rest of it is modeled.

[RIPTIDE]

To click or not to click....

 

To be a good simulator, one must try and replicate the pilot workload. We all hope that in the case of clickity cockpits, that it's to that end (workload level), along with fidelity, that the Sim maker is trying to achieve.